Calm

Just an fyi https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2022/8/17/23308942/elder-gilbert-byu-education-week-church-educational-system-courage-to-be-different/

While I agree BYU should have a different primary focus, gospel centered, this does sound like there is nothing useful to be learned or adopted from any of these programs, so problematic. I do see the possibility he was trying too hard to be brief though and lost needed nuance. And what he says below doesn’t contradict your comment. “Should” is not “is” However, the example you used…I am pretty sure it was demonstrated the slur did not occur (videos were watched). Not that it doesn’t actually happen at times, I would be shocked if it doesn’t. It does sound like this behaviour was expected and therefore misheard in this case and then likely embellished in the first online post about it. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/14/1122977386/byu-apologizes-to-a-banned-fan-saying-it-found-no-proof-they-yelled-racial-slurs

I am not impressed with the article. Because the claims were extreme…Wayfair trafficking missing kids as high priced cabinets. Have any of the missing kids claimed to be named been found, btw? Would be interesting to know their actual circumstances. added: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/interactive/2021/wayfair-qanon-sex-trafficking-conspiracy/ (use “show reader” for easier reading) Such claims are not without very troubling consequences. JVW, I know you want to do the right thing. You really need to stop this as it will perpetuate the harm this conspiracy caused those kids.

Can’t see anyone else it was written to either though….

Where did you get that idea? Maybe he just wants to contribute to his faith community or knows leadership has struggles getting callings filled and if he covered one area, that frees up others for another one.

Given there are many members who have extended family very active in the Church who might react in negative ways, even extremely, I can see how the majority still prefer to be anonymous (I have a few myself I keep my mouth shut around and hope they never come across my comments online because I am pretty sure they would misunderstand and take things the wrong way as well as argue with me about things they understood correctly because they are buying into a lot of conspiracy nonsense). Plus speaking negatively about a former employer may cause a potential employer to think twice about hiring someone even if they agree with the candidate in that particular case (if the candidate is willing to trash their former employer because of something they see as wrong, it’s more likely they will be willing to do the same in the future).

What about afterwards though, those that had been fired? Also surveys could be done anonymously. And actual quotes from what he said about DEI, etc. would be helpful.

I can see him disliking, even hating some aspects of BYU (I did when I was there), but hating BYU (do you mean the collection of BYUs or BYU Provo or BYUI?) seems a big stretch for someone working at CES. It seems unlikely he could function in his job effectively or that top church leaders would have been okay with having someone who hated BYU at its helm.

The ones I have heard all were.

I have heard of that happening before (sometimes it seems the bishop is overreacting, other times I want to hear the bishop’s version as I pick up hints of something more going on). I wish there was a way to take into account bishops’ biases, but don’t see how if you do anything more detailed than a temple recommend.

But being a hard worker and doing difficult things while admirable isn’t the same thing as being brave or going against the grain when it’s what the people who pay your paycheck and the majority of people around you want you to do, even if it upsets the people you fire/force out, especially if the other alternative is a lower paycheck or even getting fired, contract not renewed for yourself. Not saying that means he wasn’t doing good things either. I just think it exaggerates that one idea, bravery, though I do view it as brave these days to step into any role that brings you into the public eye because you will get harassed more than the typical harassment that happens to everyone online imo (I got a semideath threat and quite a few “you are going to hell”, “Devil’s spawn” from a few atypical members just because I wouldn’t let them use excessive caps or other things that made it difficult for others to read as well as getting too personal when I was a mod in ZLMB, it’s ridiculous what people think they have a right and duty to say to others). Then that hardly seems like going against the grain rather than just digging deeper the ruts in the path that are already there (not using ruts negatively here, just to emphasize it was a familiar path).

Do CES leaders hang out on a daily basis with the rest of academia? Seems like it’s more likely he is surrounded by other CES leaders and employees as well as interacting more with church leaders, though I can see him attending academic conferences/gatherings perhaps, but how often is that? Their job security doesn’t depend on the opinion of other university systems, but church leadership which likely has a very different standard. Now if he was likely to work outside the Church after his stint working for the Church, that would be risky, but how often does that happen? What typically happens with CES leaders who enter at the level he did? (Serious questions because I only know of those who have then gotten called to church full time callings, but there must be others)? Which my guess is still the minority at BYU given what professors I know.

It has always been so, hasn’t it?

I remember this being talked about, but not sure if the policy has been written up. My memory says “likely”. I don’t trust my memory. Anyone know and if so, a link? This is concerning to me if so, but something could easily be taken out of context, misunderstood with all the baggage this topic is currently carrying, so I need to see quotes. (I know there may not be any available, not saying you should get them, though I wouldn’t mind it ).

Sorry, but I am not understanding this. Could you clarify please?

I don’t subscribe even for free unless it’s something I must. Perhaps you could provide the names for alternative research? Please? (Ignore if someone else does)

And more progressive church leaders don’t? We even had significant numbers imo of members condemning Pres. Nelson as being apostate when he shut down in person services and promoted vaccination and that was hardly progressive. You are damned if you do and damned if you don’t in today’s world (and probably were at any time in history, we just have much more publication of the damning now with the internet).

I go for a variety are needed because the needs of humanity are very varied.

I would like to know the evidence for spying as well. I don’t consider it impossible or even unlikely, we have the example of Wilkinson from the past to show it does happen. But it is a serious accusation, so there should be a solid documentation showing it, imo, before assuming there must be a reason for it (no smoke without a fire is a false proverb in both a literal and figurative sense as peat and other substances can smoke without flames, upholstery is apparently known for it if cigarettes are left on furniture).

I tried, but I must….because the image needs to be right in my head and it’s not suppose to be a crown, but straps. 😛 “Rein him in” like the reins on a horse, not “reign” as in what a ruler does. https://www.dictionary.com/articles/reign-vs-rein

I definitely agree with you here. If he was at a nonLDS institution, I would also agree with this. But I don’t see how this is going against the grain given it’s CES we are talking about. Was he publishing similar critiques prior to working for the Church? (Serious question as I haven’t researched him and I don’t see a reason why this kind of stuff would have come up for him prior to that.)

But it is a much more realistic and practical and therefore it’s a useful example, imo, and one that others would more likely consider following given where they likely are in their lives (giving up a significant, but not essential financial gain for a spiritual or charitable gain instead is going to get you further down the progression path than balking at giving it all up to devote all your time to Christ). The rich young man was an example of what we eventually need to do, Elder Gilbert’s example can help us get to the state where we can seriously consider and accept that our giving it all up to Christ is the best choice for us and others. We need both examples, imo.

Seems odd this would not be flagged immediately. Unless a grocery store or something like that.

I got the idea with rpn that it was more about authority than purity. The top leadership are the ones in charge and ultimately responsible as well as accountable to God…and the ones who can most likely make things change significantly (though there is always community inertia they have to face).

Huh? Not seeing how you got here from rpn’s responses. I find rpn’s remarks reasonable. How can you expect someone to act on something if they don’t know about it? However it’s also obvious that rpn can’t control what happens with the letter once sent, so why invest mental and emotional energy into being concerned about it? Even if the letters are screened and top leadership never sees it, if it is a complaint about how the abuse report process works, there is, imo, a good chance it will get to the lawyers and administrators of the hot line, which may impact how things are addressed in the future if it’s good info, accurate and thorough. From personal experience, I know at least some of those involved in the hot line are very interested in ensuring victims are satisfied with the process. I would assume they feel the same way about bishops.