Tacenda

CFR on my bold?

This is why I take the Bible with a grain of salt.

I'm kind of a tightwad and can't bring myself to buy a brand new vehicle. Sounds like wagon types are good smooth riding machines. That has always been my drawback on the BMW etc. the pricey upkeep. I've been looking for so long to get a vehicle. Is there a medical term for me, lol. Funny not funny. Seriously, the other day I was talking to a saleswoman who said she remembers me inquiring this same time last year! But sadly, it's been over two years of looking.

Maybe it didn't go through? Or did you watch the whole thing? It shows toward the end her asking it question upon question and AI finally just admits that it doesn't know what it had appeared it did at first.

Yes, I did wonder about this being new information. I also typed Walch, Welch. That I need to correct.

Heaven's yes, and she's awesome and still alive. I watched, "The Sound of Music" last night for the nth time. Also, Eddie Fisher wasn't a very nice man, IMO.

I typed all of the below that I received today in the mail, a small section of the Deseret News that was sent to me. The article is a few pages long and features this researcher's findings along with photos of him holding pottery that shows evidence. I'd type the whole thing but think the whole article is probably on the web somewhere. Just thought it was funny I received this today, since posting the topic centered on women in the Bible not being represented etc. "Tad Walch posted this in the Deseret News: 'Stunning find': Meet the missing woman in the Bible rediscovered by a BYU researcher A BYU researcher has conclusively recovered the name of the woman who received the New Testament letter known as 2 John, according to a new book. Meet Electa, an early Christian woman whose identity was concealed for nearly 2,000 years due to corrupted Greek texts and centuries of New Testament commentaries that mistakenly believed the original writer called her on "an elect lady". Her name has been considered a mystery because scribes copying original Greek texts accidentally dropped two letters, says Lincoln Blumell, associate dean of research in the BYU Department of Ancient Scripture. Part of the problem was that every study of the past 150 years universally accepted the mistake without questioning the manuscript texts. That error shrouded Electa's actual name, which in Greek is Eclecte (eh-KLEK-tay), from billions of Bible readers because scholars thought it was instead the Greek adjective eclecte, meaning elect. (Electa is the Latin version of her name.)"

I shared this on FB, we can't be too sure on AI for facts. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPGEpT0Dj8F/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Thanks for the input!! I took a look at the Outback, and wasn't happy with a few things. So I'm still in need of suggestions.

Exactly!

Thanks for the information, didn't think about the sister missionaries. You're so right. I'd like this mainly, I'd like the world to see that women aren't to be silenced, as some scriptures mention in the Bible. I want the women that were considered apostles or prophetesses to be highlighted not erased in some cases. In the Bible it does a lot of harm and in some men's minds women aren't equal. In fact many are saying it out loud, I can name a few in the news and especially in the Evangelical churches and their chosen politicians. It's like they think women are too powerful now, so they need to demean them. I am not advocating for the Priesthood, never have never would. Just don't want harm to women because of things said in the Bible, and those that believe it word for word. And if there have been instances of the women in the Bible not being represented I think that's darn near evil.

Well, maybe this makes it a closed case, when tying in with the Priesthood. Or maybe not, maybe the church would be able to give women apostleship without the Priesthood. All I really hope for is for the Bible to be redacted, IOW, show where it wasn't black and white correct. ETA: it's possible that the word "redacted" fits in. In case it's not, I'd like to say I hope the Bible is corrected.

🤗😗

Just saw this YouTube on the Cwic Show. It is discussing the topic at hand. BTW, the podcast owner was interviewed by John Dehlin recently and spoke about a time he had doubts about the church that led to a firm belief in the church. Good thing to know and inspired me at moments.

I listened to the recent podcast, "At Last She Said It", https://atlastshesaidit.org/p/episode-248-revisiting-christ-chose. It was a whole new world in my scripture knowledge. I've never enjoyed reading scriptures, sadly. I enjoyed the Ensign, does it still exist? Oh, I think there was a name change? Thoughts on the podcast, were that the ancient text has that there were women apostles. But somehow, they get cut out of the scriptures? And Mary Magdalene was who Jesus wanted to tell the world of his resurrection. Basically being a prophetess/apostle. Or a special witness. Isn't that what the apostles of Jesus were? They mention that at the same meeting Pres Bednar and Pres HInckley were at, Pres Bednar (see references below) mentions women cannot be apostles in the church because the church aligns with ancient text in the Bible, did he totally miss the mark here? And then Pres Hinckley mentioned that if a woman becomes an apostle it will be through revelation, but I think he was coupling it with getting the Priesthood. But I sure like Pres Hinckley's statement better, it more aligns with having a living prophet. The gals in this podcast mention the thing that blows my mind heavily, is if the Bible hadn't been mistranslated, or if it hadn't been altered, would we actually put women up there with the men? And if so, I think of the harm that could have been avoided if women were put on that platform in the Bible, which is something which sours me on parts of it, the parts causing great harm to women IMO. But also, as one of the podcast host' mentions at the very end, is that it comes down to power, the churches out there in the world would lose power if they actually admit the truth of the Bible. But in the LDS church, it has current prophets, it can change this, if only it would, if the women on the podcast are correct. That is why I come to those on this board who do read the scriptures religiously, unlike me. Or those who aren't scholars or like me, who also wonder about these things. Am I and these women wrong? If you would rather read than listen, here's the show notes: Latter-day Saints are often told that the contemporary Church is built on the same model Jesus Christ used to establish His church. In this bonus re-release, Cynthia and Susan offer a few thoughts on that idea, and also discuss the pattern they see: the Bible doesn’t only show Jesus choosing women in the New Testament—beginning with Eve, women are cast in pivotal roles from the very start. The original episode explores how Jesus’s inclusion of women was radical within its cultural context. Yet for most of history, his namesake religion has been marked by near-total domination of the patriarchy. What happened? Greg Prince once asked Chieko Okazaki a question that bears repeating: “…where do we need to go to get women in the Church where He wants them to be?” In Episode 248, Cynthia and Susan pose that question again, shining light on a few of the women hidden in plain sight at Christianity’s beginnings. Notes & Quotes: ALSSI Ep. 97, Christ Chose Women Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley on Larry King Live, 09/08/1998 The Girl Who Baptized Herself: How a Lost Scripture About a Saint Named Thecla Reveals the Power of Knowing Our Worth, by Meggan Watterson Purity and Parallels: Constructing the Apostasy Narrative of Early Christianity, by Taylor G. Petrey A Beautiful Year: 52 Meditations on Faith, Wisdom, and Perseverance, by Diana Butler Bass NPC Headliner Luncheon: Elder David A. Bednar, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 05/26/2022 Apostle David Bednar quizzed on declining LDS growth, same-sex marriage, ‘Under the Banner,’ Salt Lake Tribune, by Peggy Fletcher Stack, 05/26/2022 Taylor Petrey on Facebook, 05/27/2022 The LDS Temple Ceremony: Historical Origins and Religious Value, Dialogue Journal, by Edward H. Ashment, 10/01/1994 Christianity is Many Things, Learning to See with Brian McLaren, podcast Season 3 Ep. 1, 05/21/2022 There Is Always a Struggle: An Interview with Chieko N. Okazaki, Dialogue Journal, by Greg Prince, 11/25/2005 Elder Joanna?, By Common Consent: A Mormon Blog, by Kevin Barney, 06/16/2007 Mary Magdalene Revealed: The First Apostle, Her Feminist Gospel, and the Christianity We Haven’t Tried Yet, by Meggan Watterson The Gospel of Mary Magdalene, Breaking Down Patriarchy, by Amy Allebest, podcast Season 1 Ep. 15, 11/25/2021 Who Was Junia? The Junia Project Junia The Apostle and Mormonism’s Priesthood, Patheos, by Taylor Petrie, 10/05/2014 Shifting Footings, by Scot McKnight, Patheos, 01/02/2012 3 reasons Mormons don’t know what to do with the Apostle Paul, Religion News Service, by Jana Riess (Flunking Sainthood), 08/02/2019 The Acts of Thecla: A Pauline Tradition Linked to Women, by Nancy A. Carter, January 2000 Rebecca Solnit on Facebook, 06/02/2022 “In another usage of the term apostle, Paul offers greetings to Andronicus and a woman named Junia, who are “outstanding among the apostles” (Rom 16:7). These otherwise unknown apostles reveal key information about this group. First, this reference confirms that for Paul the term apostle is not restricted to the twelve but, rather, constitutes those in an informal network of missionary workers. Second, Paul calls a woman an apostle, suggesting that the male-only tradition of apostleship has not yet been established for the communities in which Paul works. A majority of those greeted as coworkers, apostles, and deacons in Romans 16 are women. In no instance does Paul discuss an apostle with a priesthood or an institutional office. Other texts around the turn of the second century … are unaware of a restriction to twelve apostles or their distinctive authority, let alone that they were all dead by the time those texts would have been written. Rather, in these texts the apostles are itinerant teachers and miracle workers, not members of a hierarchy of formal leadership.” —Taylor Petrey “Power can be defined as the ability to make a particular perspective seem universal.” —Alok Vaid-Menon “Mary is Mary because of Jesus. But Jesus was born Jesus because of Mary, who responded to the call of God, as did Isaiah of old: Here am I, the servant of the Lord. Without her, the light would not have shined forth amid the oppression and injustice.” —Diana Butler Bass “Mary Magdalene confessed Jesus as Messiah, served him dinner, anointed him for kingship and burial, witnessed his execution, and proclaimed news of his resurrection. These are the things she did. We’ve forgotten. The memory of her was obscured. “Lazarus was resurrected centuries ago. Maybe this is the time when his sister—Mary Magdalene—is finally resurrected. It is well past time to remember.” —Diana Butler Bass “We follow the pattern of the ancient church. … The pattern anciently was that the apostles were men.” —Elder David A. Bednar “Jesus has not stayed the same for me through my whole life’s journey. And so I’ve had to be open to understanding that even though there’s one verse in Hebrews that says Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever, I have not stayed the same yesterday, today, and forever. The church does not stay the same yesterday, today, and forever. And so in a very real way, Jesus has changed for me. Jesus changes for the world. Jesus changes for the institutions of faith, for the church.” —Diana Butler Bass “It seems to me like Christ loved the women. I think he really included them in many areas where Jewish society excluded them. He didn’t mind breaking those rules.” —Chieko Okazaki “…It is difficult for us to appreciate how radical Jesus was to include women in his entourage. Women simply didn’t travel with men to whom they were not related….Jesus ignored the ritual impurity of a woman’s menstruation, which normally would have been an impediment to this kind of frequent contact.” —Kevin Barney “According to the canonical gospels, Mary Magdalene was present at the crucifixion, she was there at the burial, and she was there alone at the empty tomb. And she is the first to witness the resurrection. Let me say that again: MM was the one Christ resurrected to. In the Gospel of John, Christ gives MM special instructions and commissions her to be the one to announce the good news. Her. She is the one he chooses.” —Meggan Watterson (MM Revealed, p. 108) “If Christian theologians in the Latin West were going to establish an exclusively male church, then the central figure to Christ’s story, Mary Magdalene, needed to be retold. Starting in the 4th century, with the formation of the traditional bible, all of the gospels that confirmed Mary’s spiritual authority and unique relationship with Christ were excluded from the canon and deemed ‘heretical,’ like the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Philip, and the Gospel of Thomas. And the scriptures that confirmed and validated women’s leadership in the earliest forms of Christianity like The Acts of Paul and Thecla, were also excluded.” —Meggan Watterson (MM Revealed, p. 106) “To be sure, the word ‘apostle’ undoubtedly has a narrow meaning (the twelve, Paul, etc.) and it has a broader meaning (church-planting, founding, missionary). It still means ‘apostle’ (one sent by Christ) and not only that — this term describes the highest office for the first century Christians. And Junia is in that small and highly esteemed circle.” —Scot McKnight “If we hadn’t silenced women and asked them to leave the altar from the start, I wonder what the world would be like now. And I wonder how girls and women would be treated if we would have been able, all along, to hear who Christ was, who Christ is according to women, to mothers, to daughters … Or to put it another way, I am excited to see how the world might change once we do.” —Meggan Watterson (MM Revealed, p. 47)

Thank you for a window into your childhood dynamics with your parents. I will never forget when you mentioned your mother going on a camping (?) trip by herself (correct me if wrong). I long to go to different scenic places in Utah, my husband not so much, so I think of your mother.

Oldie and goodie!

To me it's some bad fruit, but I guess our church is young. I still call it my church, even though not active. And with most religions, they aren't perfect. But this was a humdinger.

Thanks for this input, I believe you're right, some things can be from the bottom up, but this is probably as it should be.

You bring up something I had not thought about before. Growing up and being a member all my life, the only thing I learned was that polygamy was lived to help the widows that lost their husbands from the mobs or mostly by crossing the plains. So maybe that is why I had such a reaction to finding out JS lived polygamy before they were driven out of Nauvoo. It wasn't to take care of the widows after all. I subconsciously must have felt lied to. If that makes sense. And consciously. I was so dumbfounded when I learned of it in my late 40's. More like a slow motion feeling, shock I guess, more likely. Like I was in a dream like state of mind, or like when involved in an accident and everything is in slow motion. I looked it up, I guess it can be termed the Matrix effect. In conclusion, I didn't grow up believing it was a revelation. I guess I can only blame myself for not delving into LDS history.

I understand, I didn't finish the whole video. Not that it matters, she joined the church at 17 years old.

I appreciate your two cents!!

I think you're right, as usual!

That would be so very helpful for the women in the church especially! (my bold)

Snow was not recounting hearsay decades removed; she was personally involved in the early practice and regarded plural marriage as divinely mandated despite personal cost. 2. Heber C. Kimball (Apostle, First Presidency) Kimball taught publicly that Joseph Smith struggled deeply with the commandment and only proceeded after repeated angelic warnings. Paraphrase from Kimball’s teaching: Joseph Smith delayed obeying the commandment until an angel appeared with a drawn sword and threatened him with destruction if he did not proceed. Kimball framed this not as indulgence, but as reluctant obedience. 3. Brigham Young Brigham Young consistently testified that plural marriage was introduced by Joseph Smith under extraordinary divine compulsion, not personal desire. Young stated that Joseph: Found the principle abhorrent at first Attempted to avoid it Finally complied only after angelic enforcement Young explicitly referenced the drawn sword motif in multiple sermons. 4. Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner (plural wife) Lightner gave a detailed autobiographical account stating that Joseph told her: An angel appeared to him The angel held a drawn sword He was commanded to enter plural marriage or face destruction Her account is among the most detailed and consistent first-person recollections. 5. William Clayton (Joseph Smith’s secretary) Clayton recorded in his journals that Joseph told him: He was commanded by an angel The commandment was not optional Severe consequences were attached to refusal Clayton was present when the 1843 revelation (now Doctrine and Covenants 132) was dictated. Canonical LDS Context Doctrine and Covenants 132 While D&C 132 does not explicitly mention an angel with a sword, it repeatedly emphasizes: Divine command Severe consequences for disobedience The principle being restored through Joseph Smith specifically The angelic enforcement narrative functions as historical context, not canonized text. Scholarly and Institutional Consensus Importantly, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not deny this claim. Modern Church historians and official publications acknowledge that: Joseph Smith taught that plural marriage was commanded by God He resisted the commandment Angelic visitation was part of his explanation for proceeding The Church refrains from dramatizing the image but does not reject its historicity. Important Clarifications The angel is never named in surviving accounts. The language “with a sword” appears consistently, sometimes phrased as “drawn sword.” The experience is described as coercive, not persuasive. No contemporary, hostile source invented the story; it comes from insiders defending the practice. Summary Judgment Yes. According to multiple independent LDS historical sources, Joseph Smith taught that an angel with a drawn sword commanded him to practice plural marriage and threatened him with destruction if he did not comply. This claim: Is early Is consistent Comes from participants and witnesses Is acknowledged (though not emphasized) by modern LDS scholarship Karen should ask chatGPT!