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Do you believe it was fraud when our church leaders shared from the pulpit their ideas about the priesthood ban that turned out not to be accurate?

Whether it was the actual writers of the books of the New Testament who perpetrated the fraud, or if it was the creators of the original source material who’s dishonest narratives deceived the writers into reporting a fantastic pack of lies as solemn truth, fraud would necessarily have to have been involved in the creation of a New Testament that totally misrepresents the supposed actual beliefs, teachings and acts of Eschaton’s Jesus who didn’t believe that he was the atoning Savior of the world.

Of note, John's (who's life had a few parallels to those of the Essene's) preaching of baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins wasn't done in Jesus' name (or in the name of a triune deity/godhead, for that matter). While not the overwhelming standard practice, proselyte baptism for Judaic conversion wasn't unheard of in 1st Century CE, and the utilization of immersion (or other water purification rituals) to cleanse away sin or to signify a rebirth wasn't exactly innovative in Judea or within the overall sphere of places touched by Roman/Greek influence (Pythagoreans and Eleusinians [sp?] come to mind).

"Why should they be virgins and how young would these virgins be?" The first part of that question still makes no sense to me. "Why should they be virgins?" Are you asking about why D&C 132 talks about virgins? What does this have to do with the Joseph F Smith's talk? I don't see any thing in there about him using the term virgin. The second part of that question is weird. There's no mention in Joseph F. Smith about youth. He says "Young men" but that isn't the same term we use today in the church. It wasn't until 1906 before it became normal for boys to be regularly ordained to the Aaronic priesthood (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/adjustments-to-priesthood-organization?lang=eng). Before then, it was sporadic. Most holders of the Aaronic priesthood would be 20+. So, the "young men" would probably be men in the 20s or 30s (Joseph F Smith would be ~50 at this time so someone in their 20s and 30s would be young to him). I would assume the wives that these young men would marry would also be in the 20s. That was the average age. It sometimes went lower (usually when the husband was also young).

You do know that something can be inaccurate without being deliberately fraudulent right? The Essenes had a baptism ritual. It is a fair bet other Jewish groups did too. It was not something Christians invented or rediscovered.

If by that you mean you didn’t understand the need to be there with someone rather than observing from a distance while deciding how to help, I don’t think it’s uncommon for people not to realize that all their lives, so good on you for figuring that out. Sympathy isn’t just telling someone how sorry you are without action. It can also be action, very well intended charity and love and important and meaningful. Too often we are treating sympathy as empty and meaningless, but it isn’t always that way…but even in exercising love and charity, it’s not empathy unless we try to understand from the other’s POV and address their needs from that standpoint rather than from our own perspective alone. In one sense, treating or loving another as we would want to be treated or loved could end up just as sympathy in that we give someone the charity and support we would want to get….which may not be what they actually need or want. I think it is more likely that we want to be loved with empathy, the other taking the time to learn who we are so we are given what we need and not what they think we need before they make the effort to know us. In that sense, the treating the other as we would be treated is treating them with empathy. God’s love is inherently empathetic since he knows us and our needs better than we know ourselves, so if we are trying to emulate godly love, using empathy is an important part of that.

I appreciate your honest opinion Calm. As always you are a lot like my mother, very wise. So I think of her with some of your comments. It was several years ago when I found out about the differences of empathy and sympathy, I was most likely in my 40's before knowing the difference. Sad huh? So I appreciate any insight because I'm learning every day!

I might suggest that Christ was the consummate Christian in that he was the "truth," the revelator or one who first revealed the plan of the Father for humanity on earth. He took the lid or cover off the Father's plan for us. He revealed what had been hidden, which is the very core of truth in a New Testament sense. The concept of truth as correct or incorrect was foreign in both OT and NT times. In that sense, Christ was the first Christian with the true truth.

That portion of the Welsh Saints Project had this section: The "Parable of the ten talents" means wives. ... Joseph F. Smith said that young men who hold the Lesser Priesthood an [and] aspire to the Higher should be put under covenant to adopt Plural marriage or forfeit all right to the High Priesthood, said this time would soon come. Young men had better be married by the Bishop than go into the House of God and make covenants they do not intend to keep. I associated female "virgins" to my question based on what was written in Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-63. One can conclude these "young men" would naturally be seeking virgins for their plural marriage. Why should they be virgins and how young would these virgins be?

I agree with the silliness of gatekeeping. I would simply suggest that dechristianizing is indeed cruel, causes soul wounds, and as in the case of many members of the LDS Church has created epigenetic wounds, down through generations. It has created an identity for them as a persecuted people, as it has for the Mennonites. I am unsure what you mean by "it" in your last sentence, but if the "it" you refer to in your last phrase is physical violence, I agree with you. The challenge with the violence perpetrated today is that while it is less physically violent, that does not mean "it" is less violent in other ways. The anger in some in this forum over having had Fundamentalists - or Evangelicals, if you must, strip LDS folks of the validity and genuineness of their faith is indeed palpable. I have great empathy (to tie it into this thread) in me, as I know what it is like to be dechristianized by the LDS, however subtly and smilingly delivered. Today the language is much more subtle than in decades past, but it is equally as palpable for the recipient (whether LDS or non-LDS), regardless of the source. The Hopi remind us that the wounds also apply to the perpetrator as well as the recipient, especially over time. Speaking of the Cathars or Albigenses, there are those, rightly or wrongly, who identify them as precursors to both the primitive and magesterial reformations. That could certainly be debated; however the Albigense regions of Europe, especially in France were the same regions where centuries later the reformers flourished. The correlation may not suggest causation, but it is interesting that you mention them. Best wishes.

not in any sense? You missed the part where Jesus insisted on being baptized - - - 2 Ne 31:5.And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! 6.And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Matt 3:40.Thus came John, preaching and baptizing in the river of Jordan; bearing record that he who was coming after him had power to baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire. 41.And then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan, unto John, to be baptized of him; 42.But John refused him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and why comest thou to me? 43.And Jesus, answering, said unto him, Suffer me to be baptized of thee, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 44.And John went down into the water and baptized him. 45.And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water; and John saw, and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Jesus. 46.And lo, he heard a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him.

Are you asserting that Jesus was not in any sense a worshipping Christian because he himself was the Christ and therefore the object of Christian worship, or are you saying that in spite of the fact that the teachings of Jesus establish the very justification for and doctrinal foundation of Christianity that he somehow didn’t actually believe what he was teaching? Or is your claim based on the belief that Jesus is inaccurately quoted in the New Testament and that New Testament is therefore fraudulent?

Indeed! Jesus himself was not in any sense a Christian, but Christian empathy derives from his Jewish teachings, which did not emerge in a vacuum.

Not just Christian, but a key component that Christianity carried over from its Jewish roots. Rabbinical writings often emphasize it as being the core of the Torah (accounts of Rabbi Hillel's teaching moments likely being the most well-known).

Well, it took me three attempts at replying to your message to get my temper settled down. So we are in a similar situation in that regard. Where we are in a different situation is your second paragraph. You have not had negative experiences with your leaders because of your beliefs or lack thereof. And you speak of your relatives. I have had negative experiences with local LDS leaders. And . . . the only close relative I have in the world is my wife. I have no children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, nor spouses of the same for me to love, buy gifts for, or who love me. She is dying and there is not a thing I can do about it, more than pray for a miracle. So no, I don't know what you are talking about, except I guess you are defining me as a little one who must wait until I am a bit older . . . . or older enough (or mature enough to accept the gifts that God through the LDS church has to offer me— most likely after death) and thus, ultimately receive God's good and perfect gifts. I am so tired of offering to share love, fellowship, worship, and ministry with my local LDS community and having that offer rejected, while calling me "brother" and smiling at me in the grocery store and asking about my wife. It feels like a charade and it angers me. I don't dare share that anger with them because their blind spots and justification of their position would cause them to be aghast at my response to their "love and kindness". Hogwash! or Hogwarts! — once Dolores Umbridge was headmaster! She (Dolores) even constantly referred to the "handbook" to impose her will on staff and students. Sounds familiar to me, a lived experience, even if it hasn't been so for you. So yes, I had to revise and cut down my response to you as you may have had to do to me. It is only the highest of high regard that I have for you that caused me to edit and edit and edit. It is good I did. Anger doesn't solve many things. One last thing for now . . . . this week our new bishop and one of his counselors came by to visit us. It was a kind visit. We were invited "back" to the ward to participate as we feel led. He is a genuine and kind leader, whose father I have known for years. That was a significant and kind offer, something our stake president and my friends in church leadership assured me might happen with a bishopric change. To be honest, it did feel as if, to use Tacenda's parable a few posts above, they were being Samuel. Sympathetic, but not willing or able to get involved. It came time on Saturday to decide about attending on Sunday. My wife indicated she didn't think she could. I assured her I would help her to get in and out of the church. That wasn't her concern. Her concern was that she has lost so much weight that she only has slacks she can wear out in public and the ladies in the ward would all be in dresses. Seeing her cry about what to wear to worship broke my heart again. She lacks the defiance that I might have in freely wearing a blue dress shirt to the ward. Now, I am often told that "colony Mormons" are conservative; but there is a big difference between conservative and judgemental. Ha! It is the difference between being Evangelical and Fundamentalist! You knew I couldn't resist that. I would rather not refuse the gift (to use your terminology) that the bishop and his counselor offered us. I just need to get to Walmart in the states tomorrow and buy some skirts or dresses in a smaller size. I can't expect the ladies in the ward to lower their expectations for a dying friend, but that makes me angry and in my mind separates the Fundamentalists from the Evangelicals which is why I respond sometimes (ok, most of the time) when folks here continue to conflate and confuse Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, who are indeed two different species of Christian. OK. I have responded enough . . . . yeh, too much. I think the world of you, your unique wisdom, and your kindness. It is an easy and quick task for me to get over being angry with you. Blessings, Navidad.

There are a few things that really piss me off and I have to take a moment to get my temper settled down. One is insisting you know better than I do what I believe, what I can and can’t accept as truth. And trust me on this as I would have noticed, I have never even raised an eyebrow of one of my leaders with my apparently nonexistent beliefs, never had a recommend held back or a calling rescinded. Just more invites, more expressions of gratitude for my contributions, and more invites for callings. The only thing that ever got even a wisp of blowback was me asking if my husband had to shave his beard to be on the High Council of our stake. My belief…God accepts you fully as you are in the same way he accepts me fully. It is not a belief in ordinances and authority that makes us acceptable to Christ. I do believe he is preparing us to be able to accept all the blessings he wants to bestow on us. I suspect that is where we differ, the gifts he wants to give out of love to his children. I doubt either of us have received more than a minuscule amount of what he has waiting for us. And you may have accepted many more than I have at this point even if you haven’t accepted some of the ones I have. If you don’t understand what I am talking about….a parent takes his numerous children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren and all their spouses (and their parents and grandparents if they want to) out shopping once a year for birthday presents. He actually owns the store and ensures everything there is something good, of value and then tells all of them to choose what they want. There are some presents he needs to tell the little ones to wait to get till they are older, but he guarantees the items will be there when they are older enough. Just because some of the group are younger doesn’t mean they aren’t just as much family as his adult sons and daughters are. He treats everyone, even the in-laws as his nearest and dearest. He sees in everyone his child, his friend….even the ones who sulk because they think this is childish and want to be out playing with other friends or even refuse to choose any gift at all that year. It also gives him great delight whatever gift the family members choose if they take joy in them. And btw, he adopts anyone who comes up and wants to be part of his family and treats them identical to his other children. Turns out all, every last member started out as adopted. And no, I don’t believe an ordinance is required to be adopted into the family.

Are you suggesting the California legislature is not composed of politicians? Have you ever lived in an actual socialist state? Is the California legislature banning books now that differ from this agenda you say they have? (Rhetorical question, I know the answer) Also it is more accurate to speak of the majority party or even supermajority if you want to be picky, as there are parts of California that are conservative and they do manage to elect conservative representatives. Grew up there. It makes for an interesting mix. by the way, the bill didn’t pass. Odd given the legislature was so eager to get those drones up and running. And that dang super majority.

“One headline, why believe it?” Words to live by. 🙂

She did interact with many scientists She still did not say what you originally said she said. You are holding her up as an exemplar while completely misrepresenting her. That is just really really screwed up. You don’t respect her. You just use her (incorrectly) as support for your weird cultural agenda. I respect her more than you do. I read up on her and understand her. I think she is wrong. You just lie about what she says. That is awful and you should feel bad about doing it. Conspiracy nonsense.

I guess you do not quite grasp the fact that she did "rub shoulders" with many scientists on all sides. She definitely has the most profound perspectives than you do. If you had sat still for 9 minutes and focused on the video you would have obtained a faint glimmer of understanding. IF you have room in your brain that is overflowing with trash. You missed the point that it was the California legislature that was forcing lock-step adherence by public schools to "teach" the glow-bull warming hysteria. All part of the effort to make as many school children into drones of the socialist state as possible.

You are a wonderful person; a true believer in Christ. You just can't and therefore don't believe He believes in me as the same, just as I am with no help needed from the LDS church, its authority, its covenants, or its ordinances. Blessings, Navidad

Your "plot holes" that you listed here are interesting. For Augusta Cobb, that is a misunderstanding of her letter. He didn't forbid her from ever meeting with Joseph Smith. He made her promise to never meet with Joseph alone. And the reasoning was because Joseph would overcome her and make her his wife, instead of Brigham. In her letter she talks about how she would rather have been sealed to Joseph since Brigham is ignoring her. And she would rather have Joseph's child. And she also says that she did meet with Joseph (though I guess not in private) and she talks about how Joseph asked for her twice before she is sealed to Brigham. I was actually able to find the transcript of the letter. Page 89 of https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JSP_Book_91.pdf Here's the relevant parts So Augusta Cobb's letter is actually evidence of Joseph practicing polygamy, not the other way around. For Brigham speaking bad about Emma, yes, he was angry with her. I'm not sure how that is a plot hole for polygamy. The two did not get along, especially after the martyrdom and Brigham said some really harsh words. For Brigham openly acquiring wives after the martyrdom, where do you get that? And don't quote #85 from the site since that is not talking about "openly" acquiring. As far as I know, polygamy was still pretty much in secret and only those in the know really knew about it. It wasn't till the exodus that it was openly shown. And, if we ignore the "openly" part, the acquisition of wives actually fits better with Joseph being polygamist. Joseph probably had 18 wives in 1843. That's far more than Brigham ever did. And after he died, Brigham and others married many of the widows. That causes many of them to have higher number of wives than they would normally have. I find Joseph's widows and their pattern (especially the Nauvoo temple records) to be one of the major plot holes for those who don't accept Joseph's polygamy. I've yet to see a good explanation for them. Usually the explanation is that they were under the thumb of Brigham and his cronies and so they had to testify about their marriage to Joseph but that doesn't really fit with the evidence. For instance, Agnes Coolbrith (widow of Don Carlos Smith and Joseph Smith) was living in California and had no more connections with the Mormon church and yet she told her nephews (Joseph Smith III and his brothers) that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and had other wives (page 5 (or 59) in https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Joseph-Smith’s-Plural-Wives-after-the-Martyrdom.pdf).

I'm not so sure "official doctrine" can ever be neatly contained, summarized or pinned down. I think that likely for Brigham Young, his views were not static and his rhetoric was not either. I think the historical data point to wide spread belief that the highest degree of the celestial kingdom required polygamy and that this was taught (at least at times) by the highest levels of the church and not just rogue local leaders. Lorena's family were among the first to practice plural marriage and were connected to apostles. Their and others understanding of the matter provide data in understanding the complex topic of how plural marriage was understood and thought of at the time. And just for the record, there are many women and men that to this day, view plural marriage as a requirement in the celestial kingdom. As far as I know the church position on this is officially agnostic (but I'm happy to accept corrections). As a reference see https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/10590_eng.pdf?lang=eng which instructs Nothing of the sort. At least here. Lorena's journey was a spiritual one led by dreams, visions, prayer and faith. She and Bent and Julia made their own decisions. Laying "blame" at someone else's feet for her adult grown up decisions would undermine and cheapen her own life experience.

Not a problem. I do that a lot. I just like to understand how others understand me…at least approximately.

That would depend on how you define Christian and deChristianizing. Most of us as far as I am aware allow the Christianhood of others who believe in Christ in different ways then we do. We might at times believe they aren’t very good Christians or that they have some mixed up beliefs. There are some idiots who talk about others “pretending” to do church and that certainly sounds like pretending to be Christian, but I am pretty sure what is usually meant the few times I have heard this was pretending to have authority, valid rituals, etc, not pretending to have belief.