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JulieM

Did Mckenna Denson Meet With Thomas S. Monson After MTC?

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I just had lunch with some friends from my ward and one said she’d read online that it was just released that Mckenna Denson revealed to the BYU Police that she had met with Thomas S. Monson after her time at the MTC.  I guess this was information that was redacted, but is now being made public?

Does anyone know more about this?  Did she reveal or discuss the sexual abuse charges against Joseph Bishop in this meeting?

I will search for more on this too.

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8 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I just had lunch with some friends from my ward and one said she’d read online that it was just released that Mckenna Denson revealed to the BYU Police that she had met with Thomas S. Monson after her time at the MTC.  I guess this was information that was redacted, but is now being made public?

Does anyone know more about this?  Did she reveal or discuss the sexual abuse charges against Joseph Bishop in this meeting?

I will search for more on this too.

There's some discussion about this with a bit more info regarding it on this thread, starting here:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70455-they-just-dont-make-miracles-like-they-used-to/?do=findComment&comment=1209813133

 

Edited by ALarson

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Ms. Denson herself has said she never told anyone the MTC incidents until a couple of years after she returned from her mission, and that it was to her YSA bishop, after which Carlos Assay was sent to talk with her.   If it were true that she'd told Pres. Monson (either before or after he became Pres.), then why wouldn't she have just been in touch with him about the lack of progress, as opposed to continuing to contact her local leadership?

 

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5 minutes ago, rpn said:

Ms. Denson herself has said she never told anyone the MTC incidents until a couple of years after she returned from her mission, and that it was to her YSA bishop, after which Carlos Assay was sent to talk with her.   If it were true that she'd told Pres. Monson (either before or after he became Pres.), then why wouldn't she have just been in touch with him about the lack of progress, as opposed to continuing to contact her local leadership?

 

Why, knowing he was a sexual predator and that other vulnerable female missionaries were at risk, wouldn't the spirit prompt Pres. Monson to ask Denson about Bishops behaviour?

Edited by Marginal Gains

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10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It's being discussed on MormonDiscussions.

Apparently there is no information about what they talked about, only that Sis. Denson sent a draft of her statement to the BYU police, which purportedly includes information that 

A) Sis. Denson was initially sent to Washington D.C. to serve her mission,

B) she suffered some sort of mental breakdown while she was there,

C) she returned to Utah for rehabilitation, which included meeting with a mental health counselor, and also with a General Authority, Thomas S. Monson (presumably in the Quorum of the Twelve at the time, as he was not called into the First Presidency until November 1985), and

D) she was authorized to return to missionary service, but in Wisconsin.

This does not see to be a significant development, as far as it goes.  There is no indication that Sis. Denson stated, in her statement to BYU police, that she disclosed to him that Joseph Bishop had abused her.  Her federal complaint does not include any allegation that she disclosed any abuse allegations to Elder Monson.  

If all true (and I have no reason to doubt the info above, but don't know for sure yet of course), why the need to redact this information?

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7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If all true (and I have no reason to doubt the info above, but don't know for sure yet of course), why the need to redact this information?

I don't know.  I redact documents all the time as part of my practice as an attorney, usually business records and the like which I am sending to opposing counsel.  I generally err on the side of caution (that is, if I am unsure if something should be redacted, I redact it, since I can always reverse a decision to redact, but I cannot reverse a decision to not redact).  On occasion this has triggered some suspicion from the other side, at which point we discuss that between the parties, and then I re-assess whether to disclose the redacted material.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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22 minutes ago, rpn said:

Ms. Denson herself has said she never told anyone the MTC incidents until a couple of years after she returned from her mission, and that it was to her YSA bishop, after which Carlos Assay was sent to talk with her.   If it were true that she'd told Pres. Monson (either before or after he became Pres.), then why wouldn't she have just been in touch with him about the lack of progress, as opposed to continuing to contact her local leadership?

 

I am amazed that she and her lawyer are talking about this to the media and , like wouldn't you want to unload all this information in the courtroom? Someone once said if you don't want people to dig up dirt on you, don't give them a shovel, in other words, keep your mouth shut. I have no doubt in my mind Bishop is guilty but with all these statements this lady and lawyer are making, she's making it harder on herself to be believed.

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14 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why, knowing he was a sexual predator and that other vulnerable female missionaries were at risk, wouldn't the spirit prompt Pres. Monson to ask Denson about Bishops behaviour?

You presume that this meeting did, in fact, take place.

You presume to know what Elder Monson did and did not ask.

You presume that the allegations against Joseph Bishop are correct.

You presume that the Spirit did not prompt or influence Elder Monson during the interview.

You presume that Sis. Denson would have necessarily disclosed allegations of abuse to Elder Monson.

And on and on.  Lots of presuming going on.

None of us can speak intelligently as to why the Spirit does or does not do something in a particular circumstance.  So your question is essentially an imponderable.  We can likewise things like "Why did Jesus select Judas as an apostle?", or "Why did the Spirit not tell Joseph Smith to stay in Iowa rather than return to Nauvoo, where he was to be arrested?", or "Why did God allow Mountain Meadows to happen?"

Thanks,

-Smac

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27 minutes ago, rpn said:

Ms. Denson herself has said she never told anyone the MTC incidents until a couple of years after she returned from her mission, and that it was to her YSA bishop, after which Carlos Assay was sent to talk with her.  

A good point.

So . . . not much useful information in this development.

FWIW, I checked the court docket in the federal lawsuit this morning - nothing has been filed since April 8.

Thanks,

-Smac

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14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't know.  I redact documents all the time as part of my practice as an attorney, usually business records and the like which I am sending to opposing counsel.  I generally err on the side of caution (that is, if I am unsure if something should be redacted, I redact it, since I can always reverse a decision to redact, but I cannot reverse a decision to not redact).  On occasion this has triggered some suspicion from the other side, at which point we discuss that between the parties, and then I re-assess whether to disclose the redacted material.

Ok, thanks for the additional info!

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5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I am amazed that she and her lawyer are talking about this to the media and , like wouldn't you want to unload all this information in the courtroom? Someone once said if you don't want people to dig up dirt on you, don't give them a shovel, in other words, keep your mouth shut. I have no doubt in my mind Bishop is guilty but with all these statements this lady and lawyer are making, she's making it harder on herself to be believed.

As far as I know, this did not come from Denson or her attorney (the release of the redacted information).

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2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I am amazed that she and her lawyer are talking about this to the media and , like wouldn't you want to unload all this information in the courtroom?

Well, there's a pretty good chance the case will never get to the courtroom.  The statute of limitations is a pretty substantial hurdle, IMO.  Laches also.

Moreover, the courts are not interested in being a dumping ground for unvetted information.  Hence there are complex procedural and evidentiary rules for having evidence vetted and admitted into evidence.  

Moreover, "all this information" appears to be . . . not very relevant.  So she claims to have met with Elder Monson in 1984 or 1985.  And this is relevant . . . how?  It's not.  Probative of . . . what?  Nothing that I can see.  It's just a factoid.  Interesting to passersby, but not to the court.

The quantum of evidence in this case is, AFAICS, very poor.  However, there's a lot of shock value in the allegations, and one of the targets has very deep pockets.  Moreover, the original strategy was to negotiate a confidential settlement with the Church, but that blew up when Sis. Denson sent out her recording to multiple media outlets, thus diminishing its value as leverage (as its value as evidence is, I think, fairly low).  

Given these considerations, a let's-file-suit-in-federal-court-but-otherwise-resort-to-trial-by-media-circus strategy makes sense.

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Someone once said if you don't want people to dig up dirt on you, don't give them a shovel, in other words, keep your mouth shut.  I have no doubt in my mind Bishop is guilty but with all these statements this lady and lawyer are making, she's making it harder on herself to be believed.

I am inclined to think that Bro. Bishop is guilty of some sort of serious sexual misconduct.  But the evidence for rape or attempted rape is very, very poor.  So innocent-until-proven-guilty as to rape or attempted rape is my current position.

I concur with you that Sis. Denson has made her case considerably harder than it needed to be.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

As far as I know, this did not come from Denson or her attorney (the release of the redacted information).

Consig (over on the other board) claims to have a mole in the BYU Police Department.

Thanks,

-Smac

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37 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why, knowing he was a sexual predator and that other vulnerable female missionaries were at risk, wouldn't the spirit prompt Pres. Monson to ask Denson about Bishops behaviour?

Are you asking why God doesn’t always intervene and stop evil people from hurting others?

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1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Consig (over on the other board) claims to have a mole in the BYU Police Department.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well, it seems to have come from somewhere (hadn't read that though).  It quotes Denson, so I'd imagine it will be verified.

Do you (or anyone else) know if it was required back then for a missionary who was going back out into the mission field to meet with an Apostle?  If so, is that still the case?

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6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well, it seems to have come from somewhere (hadn't read that though).  It quotes Denson, so I'd imagine it will be verified.

Perhaps.  It's just not that big a deal, such that I don't know that it needs to be verified or authenticated (from a legal perspective, that is).

Her meeting with Elder Monson does not seem to prove or disprove anything, and hence is neither a benefit or detriment to either side.

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Do you (or anyone else) know if it was required back then for a missionary who was going back out into the mission field to meet with an Apostle?  If so, is that still the case?

I suspect that a missionary under consideration to return to missionary work after a serious mental health issue will usually meet with a General Authority as part of that process.  I'm not sure if it is required, though.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, rpn said:

Ms. Denson herself has said she never told anyone the MTC incidents until a couple of years after she returned from her mission, and that it was to her YSA bishop, after which Carlos Assay was sent to talk with her.   If it were true that she'd told Pres. Monson (either before or after he became Pres.), then why wouldn't she have just been in touch with him about the lack of progress, as opposed to continuing to contact her local leadership?

 

There is also no mention of this in the tape she made, which is very strange given how much other information she spoke of.

Was this alleged draft sent before or after her interview with Bishop?  Anyone know?

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1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why, knowing he was a sexual predator and that other vulnerable female missionaries were at risk, wouldn't the spirit prompt Pres. Monson to ask Denson about Bishops behaviour?

Assuming that such a situation of a meeting even occurred at all, something that may never be verifiable now that President Monson has passed away, probably for the same reason that the Spirit let people creep unawares into the Church (Jude 1:4).  Why didn't the Spirit warn the Bishops who was bad and who was not, and who was sneaking into the Church to corrupt it before they ever were baptized? He possibly could have stopped the entire apostasy from occurring at all but he didn't.  Or, perhaps for the same reason that a prophet of God had no clue the intentions of a woman who was approaching him because the Lord had hidden it from him (2 Kgs. 4:26-27)? Perhaps for the same reason that a false prophet managed to lie to a real prophet and get away with it and cost the true prophet his life (1 Kgs. 13:21)?

Sometimes the Spirit leaves us on our own and sometimes tells us something but "steps back" to see if we are listening.  Sometimes we trust in man and do not listen carefully enough to the Spirit, even when practically "yelling" at us.  The worst experiences I ever experienced have happened to me when the Spirit gave a warning in no uncertain terms but I then thought to myself, "Nah, that can't happen.  It'll be alright."  In the end we are all mortal men, even with the gift of discernment, which gift I have experienced personally over a decade back ago, on multiple occasions.  It even became rumored among some that it was like I could read peoples' minds.  Sometimes the Spirit would let me know what people were thinking if I was in a situation when I needed to know something like that.  I've also seen it in operation in a Stake President I knew.  Some people would freak out after interviews with him, and you could hear them whispering in unbelief to themselves after the door was closed behind them, "How did he know? How could he have known?" He was sometimes very specific with a person during interviews, right down to the number of days from the time of a transgression to the time of the interview.  I experienced it firsthand.  People also talked about this ability he had.

So, I know it's a real thing.  But we also sometimes second-guess ourselves and fail to pay heed to the promptings because of our situations as mortals.  We sometimes trust scholars or experts, even when they may be mistaken, and don't rely on the Spirit instead.  That's when the bad stuff happens.

Edited by MormonMason
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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I just had lunch with some friends from my ward and one said she’d read online that it was just released that Mckenna Denson revealed to the BYU Police that she had met with Thomas S. Monson after her time at the MTC.  I guess this was information that was redacted, but is now being made public?

Does anyone know more about this?  Did she reveal or discuss the sexual abuse charges against Joseph Bishop in this meeting?

I will search for more on this too.

I read about this yesterday per RFM...it is true 

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14 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I read about this yesterday per RFM...it is true 

"It is true" that she claims to have met with Thomas S. Monson, yes.

But there is no evidence that she disclosed any allegations of abuse to him, and rather substantial evidence that she did not.

Do you think her meeting with Elder Monson is significant?  If so, in what way?

Thanks,

-Smac

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18 minutes ago, MormonMason said:

Assuming that such a situation of a meeting even occurred at all, something that may never be verifiable now that President Monson has passed away,

Perhaps his calendar from that time period is available.  Or perhaps the Missionary Department has something in its records.

At present, I'm inclined to believe that she did in fact meet with Elder Monson, if for no other reason than she is not trying to get any mileage out of it, and therefore would not seem to have a motive to fabricate such a thing.

18 minutes ago, MormonMason said:

probably for the same reason that the Spirit let people creep unawares into the Church (Jude 1:4).  Why didn't the Spirit warn the Bishops who was bad and who was not, and who was sneaking into the Church to corrupt it before they ever were baptized? He possibly could have stopped the entire apostasy from occurring at all but he didn't.  Or, perhaps for the same reason that a prophet of God had no clue the intentions of a woman who was approaching him because the Lord had hidden it from him (2 Kgs. 4:26-27)? Perhaps for the same reason that a false prophet managed to lie to a real prophet and get away with it and cost the true prophet his life (1 Kgs. 13:21)?

It's an imponderable.  Apart from generalized notions pertaining to our individual exercise of the gift of agency, we often simply just don't know why things like this happen.  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."  (Isaiah 55:8-9).

18 minutes ago, MormonMason said:

Sometimes the Spirit leaves us on our own and sometimes tells us something but "steps back" to see if we are listening.  Sometimes we trust in man and do not listen carefully enough to the Spirit, even when practically "yelling" at us.  The worst experiences I ever experienced have happened to me when the Spirit gave a warning in no uncertain terms but I then thought to myself, "Nah, that can't happen.  It'll be alright."  In the end we are all mortal men, even with the gift of discernment, which gift I have experienced personally over a decade back ago, on multiple occasions.  It even became rumored among some that it was like I could read peoples' minds.  Sometimes the Spirit would let me know what people were thinking if I was in a situation when I needed to know something like that.  I've also seen it in operation in a Stake President I knew.  Some people would freak out after interviews with him, and you could hear them whispering in unbelief to themselves after the door was closed behind them, "How did he know? How could he have known?" He was sometimes very specific with a person during interviews, right down to the number of days from the time of a transgression to the time of the interview.  I experienced it firsthand.  People also talked about this ability he had.

So, I know it's a real thing.  But we also sometimes second-guess ourselves and fail to pay heed to the promptings because of our situations as mortals.  We sometimes trust scholars or experts, even when they may be mistaken, and don't rely on the Spirit instead.  That's when the bad stuff happens.

Well said.

Thanks,

-Smac

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25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"It is true" that she claims to have met with Thomas S. Monson, yes.

But there is no evidence that she disclosed any allegations of abuse to him, and rather substantial evidence that she did not.

Do you think her meeting with Elder Monson is significant?  If so, in what way?

Thanks,

-Smac

Whatever...she met with him..That is all I know.  Your conclusions are yours..I don't have any.

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31 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"It is true" that she claims to have met with Thomas S. Monson, yes.

Isn't more precise to say it is true someone who claims to have access to BYU Police reports has said Denson claims this?

Has BYU Police or someone else with known access verified the claim?  Is there a photo of the unredacted report available or just a report from an unidentified mole?

Edited by Calm

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7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Your conclusions are yours..I don't have any.

I'm not sure that anyone can draw any definite conclusions regarding this as of yet.  I know that I'll need more information before I can.

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