canard78 Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Just making sure I understood your view - that the Book of Mormon can't be a historical document because you think the specificity in its prophecy is too accurate.The Chinese have a saying about death by a thousand cuts, not a single fatal blow.So no, this is not the single problem I have with the books origins but, again, that can wait for another thread. Yeah...who are we to put any kind of rules on information given by revelations to the prophets. Perhaps God wanted Lehi to know that it would be exactly 600 years to Christ and perhaps God didn't want other prophets to have as much detail.God can reveal with as much specific detail as he wants to whomever he wants. It's a stretch to say the amount of detail in a prophecy has ANY bearing on its validity.I've simply asked for other examples that are consistent with the BoM style of prophecy. If you're acknowledging that the BoM style is not similar to any other and yet have no problem with that difference then that's fine. I'm not asking people to all have a problem with the inconsistency I'm simply arguing that the difference should be acknowledged.
canard78 Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 To be fair it is really hard to recognize when you're living out a prophecy. Usually takes many years later for that realization.If we could look back and identity historic, post-1830 prophecy in the Book of Mormon them it would still work. But there aren't any specific ones. The best so far is the conspiracy theory that the UN is fulfilling the warning (not prophecy) about secret combinations.
bluebell Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Take a look again at the prophecy from President Woodruff, it makes no mention of a war.You're right. There is no valid way-no reasonable way whatsoever-that saying that the angels of destructions are about to be unleashed on the world in the next 20 years could possibly be compared to war. War and destruction have absolutely nothing in common and a reasonable person would never use the word destruction when talking about war.Oh wait, maybe it's not completely insane to see a connection between destruction and war... I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that i can't take this line of reasoning seriously. If you don't want to believe W. Woodruff was talking about the war that's fine, but when you start arguing about how it's completely unreasonable that anyone could see it as talking about the war that's when it starts to be comical. A close reading the prophecy reveals that President Woodruff could have been referring to a number of events including a large famine, a series of natural disasters, an economic downturn, etc.I agree. I don't think the prophecy was limited to WWI alone. If you do believe the prophecy is referring to WWI, did HF inspire Gavrilo Princip to assassinate Franz Ferdinand setting off a series of events that led to WWI?No, i don't believe that. The question doesn't even make sense. It's the equivalent of me telling you that i predict one of my children is going to fail math and then you asking me, when one of them does, whether or not i encouraged him to get an F on one of his tests. This idea that no one can know something is going to happen unless they also attempt to make it happen isn't logical.Had this same prophecy been given 20 years later we would have been discussing the prophet's ability to predict the great depression, twenty years after that the ability to predict WWII, twenty years after that his ability to predict the Cold War and the sexual revelation, twenty years after that his ability to predict the predict the global war on terror and the Great Recession. I agree. I don't see why that's a problem. In fact, I'll make a prophecy of my own and even be willing to make it more specific my mentioning what will actually occur.The Lord's vengeance is nigh upon us. Yea, even within 20 years the children of men will see a great destruction fall upon them for their wickedness. Yea, they will experience wars and famines and all manner of diseases and afflictions unless they repent and return unto the Lord. As prophesied in days of past, the coming of His return is close at hand, yea even a time of separating the wheat from the tares. Repent now and listen to the words of His humble servants or risk being swept up in the destruction of the wicked.I'll even be willing to bet my house it will come true. Any takers?I don't believe that's going to happen in the next 20 years (no one with any authority has set such a date and you definitely don't have that authority), but seeing as how all you've done is co-opted the prophecies of others who have come before you i would imagine that there are many who believe the essence of what you've repeated here. Edited January 24, 2015 by bluebell 2
thesometimesaint Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 God probably knew about the Serbian with a gun starting WW1. I'm not convinced Wilford Woodruff knew.
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 That's a lot of quoting. Yes, you're right. I'm basically saying that the prophecy in the BoM bears little resemblance to any type of prophecy in either the Old and New Testament or in the latter-days. And yes, I'm saying that's pretty suspect. I'm quite open these days about the fact that I think it's more likely that the Book of Mormon is a modern text. Finding what looks like anachronistic styles of prophecy just nudges me a little further in that direction.funny. The more I study the book of Mormon and about it, the more obvious it becomes that it is what it claims to be.
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 God probably knew about the Serbian with a gun starting WW1. I'm not convinced Wilford Woodruff knew.I'm not sure ww1 wouldn't occur regardless of whether it was triggered by the assassination or not.
pogi Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 A prophesy of what someone will say in 600 years. Now that takes some doing. I'm not aware of any prophecy ever going that far.I gave you one from the D and C and you told me it didn't count because it has not been fulfilled. What will satisfy you? I have supplied short term revelations (migration to utah) and long term revelations which have not been fulfilled and you are not satisfied even though they are very clear.
omni Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 You're right. There is no valid way-no reasonable way whatsoever-that saying that the angels of destructions are about to be unleashed on the world in the next 20 years could possibly be compared to war. War and destruction have absolutely nothing in common and a reasonable person would never use the word destruction when talking about war.Oh wait, maybe it's not completely insane to see a connection between destruction and war... I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that i can't take this line of reasoning seriously. If you don't want to believe W. Woodruff was talking about the war that's fine, but when you start arguing about how it's completely unreasonable that anyone could see it as talking about the war that's when it starts to be comical. Actually, I said no such thing. I wrote that Woodruff never mentions war - which he doesn't. I then stated he could have been referring to a number of things - which he very well could have. Woodruff said he saw this all in a vision, why not simply say it's going to be a war instead of the incredibly vague and "mighty changes among the nations of the earth"? Mighty changes in what? Technology, wars, economy, natural disasters, disease, famine, morality? Had WWI not occurred the saints very well could have believed the "mighty changes" were referring to the shift from the strict moral ethics of the Victorian Era to the relatively wild Roaring 20s. No, i don't believe that. The question doesn't even make sense.It's the equivalent of me telling you that i predict one of my children is going to fail math and then you asking me, when one of them does, whether or not i encouraged him to get an F on one of his tests. This idea that no one can know something is going to happen unless they also attempt to make it happen isn't logical. Once again, I invite you to re-read the prophecy . But I want to tell you now, that those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments...Great changes are at our doors. It's quite clear from my reading that Woodruff isn't making a prediction about a random event (one that would have occurred irrespective of the saint's/world's wickedness), but one that would occur as a result of a judgement. Why are judgements delivered upon us - because of our actions. So did HF inspire the assassination of Franz Ferdinand as a judgement upon his people? Not sure if that makes sense. I don't believe that's going to happen in the next 20 years (no one with any authority has set such a date and you definitely don't have that authority), Of course it will happen. Can you point me towards one 20-year period since the dawn of civilization that hasn't experienced wars, famines, diseases and afflictions? It's happening now and I can guarantee it will be happening within the next 20 years. but seeing as how all you've done is co-opted the prophecies of others who have come before you i would imagine that there are many who believe the essence of what you've repeated here. Yes, I purposely created my "prophecy" in the same manner as arguably the most common prophecy in the scriptures to make a point. This thread is a perfect example of how prophecies work, make them vague and let the reader fill in the details. We can see in real time how the phrase "the next twenty years will see mighty changes among the nations of the earth" was turned into a variation of "a great war will happen in exactly twenty years".
Bobbieaware Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) I gave you one from the D and C and you told me it didn't count because it has not been fulfilled. What will satisfy you? I have supplied short term revelations (migration to utah) and long term revelations which have not been fulfilled and you are not satisfied even though they are very clear.I believe the Lord exercises extreme caution when it comes to how far he's willing to go in the specificity of prophecy. Allow the prophets to give too much specificity in their prophesying and the need for dynamic faith and the development of spiritual gifts begin to be seriously undermined. Give the word of God a green light to depart from it's divinely ordained role of increasing the spirit of revelation in the faithful, only to play a new and unwise role where spiritually unprepared sign seekers are indulged in their carnal desires to obtain a knowledge of the things of God without commensurate faith, and the only thing that can follow in the wake of such unwise and unwarranted disseminations of gospel truth is spiritual injury and incapacitation. Where there is no faith, sin abounds.For example, there is a likely a wise reason why Isaiah's messianic prophecies were deliberately written in somewhat ambiguous fashion, with two or more actual historic events that could be pointed to in fulfillment. It's largely because of Isaiah's ambiguity, and lack of specificity in his prophesying, that for some two thousand years the Jews have felt well-justified in their rejection.of the testimony that Isaiah's messianic prophecies point to the crucified Jesus of Nazareth as the promised messiah.My fear is that, without realizing it, some of what's being expressed on this thread amounts to sign seeking. It's been my experience that when one possesses the spirit of prophecy for himself the prophecies of scripture "come alive" and the Spirit of the Lord ignites the soul and "fills in all the blanks." Edited January 25, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
carbon dioxide Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Take a look again at the prophecy from President Woodruff, it makes no mention of a war. A close reading the prophecy reveals that President Woodruff could have been referring to a number of events including a large famine, a series of natural disasters, an economic downturn, etc. If you do believe the prophecy is referring to WWI, did HF inspire Gavrilo Princip to assassinate Franz Ferdinand setting off a series of events that led to WWI? Had this same prophecy been given 20 years later we would have been discussing the prophet's ability to predict the great depression, twenty years after that the ability to predict WWII, twenty years after that his ability to predict the Cold War and the sexual revelation, twenty years after that his ability to predict the predict the global war on terror and the Great Recession. In fact, I'll make a prophecy of my own and even be willing to make it more specific my mentioning what will actually occur. The Lord's vengeance is nigh upon us. Yea, even within 20 years the children of men will see a great destruction fall upon them for their wickedness. Yea, they will experience wars and famines and all manner of diseases and afflictions unless they repent and return unto the Lord. As prophesied in days of past, the coming of His return is close at hand, yea even a time of separating the wheat from the tares. Repent now and listen to the words of His humble servants or risk being swept up in the destruction of the wicked. I'll even be willing to bet my house it will come true. Any takers?I agree. Woodruff prophecy is vague when it was given. Prophecy should be vague enough to allow those who are wicked or not prepared to miss it but specific enough that to at least recognizes its fulfillment when it occurs. For me the importance of this prophecy is not what is said but the date it was given and when WW1 began. I personally find it hard to believe that it just was an accident that it was exactly 20 years and 4 days from the day he said it to the day officially held that WW1 started. Probably the most important event in the 20th century since so many things in the 20th century probably would not have happened without it. WW1 changed the world. Keep in mind also that that Woodruff put himself out on the line when he made that declaration. You and I can make such statements and nobody will notice or care. So its easy for us to do it because there is little consequence. Edited January 25, 2015 by carbon dioxide
carbon dioxide Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 How about TV. Orson Pratt spoke of a prophecy that speaks to television 50 years before it was invented. On Jan 27, 1874 he said "We will suppose that it was within the scope of man's power...to converse through the aid of the telegraph line...Now supposing still further, that there was a principle differing from our natural light, a principle of light of a more refined nature, that could penetrate from London to this point, that it would affect our eyes, the we could both see and hear them at eight or nine thousand miles distance. Would we not be in their presence? Would it be really necessary for us to travel eight or nine thousand miles to get into the same room with them, in order to get into their presence? (JOD Vol 16, p. 364-366) This could also be speaking of the internet as well. 1
omni Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 How about TV. Orson Pratt spoke of a prophecy that speaks to television 50 years before it was invented. On Jan 27, 1874 he said"We will suppose that it was within the scope of man's power...to converse through the aid of the telegraph line...Now supposing still further, that there was a principle differing from our natural light, a principle of light of a more refined nature, that could penetrate from London to this point, that it would affect our eyes, the we could both see and hear them at eight or nine thousand miles distance. Would we not be in their presence? Would it be really necessary for us to travel eight or nine thousand miles to get into the same room with them, in order to get into their presence? (JOD Vol 16, p. 364-366)This could also be speaking of the internet as well.Sorry to be such a "Debbie downer" here, but I'm not sure how this qualifies as a prophecy, he even starts it off with "we will suppose". It seems to me like the ruminations of possible future technologies - something I'm sure everyone of us here has done. At the time of his statement both the telegraph and photograph existed, I don't think it would be too far a stretch of the imagination to essentially combine the two technologies and predict light or images being transported over large distances. It would be like someone today predicting flying cars or any number of other technologies likely to exist in the future.
Duncan Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Sorry to be such a "Debbie downer" here, but I'm not sure how this qualifies as a prophecy, he even starts it off with "we will suppose". It seems to me like the ruminations of possible future technologies - something I'm sure everyone of us here has done. At the time of his statement both the telegraph and photograph existed, I don't think it would be too far a stretch of the imagination to essentially combine the two technologies and predict light or images being transported over large distances. It would be like someone today predicting flying cars or any number of other technologies likely to exist in the future. People want Prophets to prophecy and then when they do they are then told well, that's not good enough! some people I tellya! 3
DarkScythe Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 It goes by many names. Might as well call it Hydra.Hail Hydra
omni Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 People want Prophets to prophecy and then when they do they are then told well, that's not good enough! some people I tellya!I would love for a prophet to prophecy, I just haven't found any of them convincing. Of course I could just be one of the spiritually blind the scriptures are always warning us about so take what I say with a grain of salt.
canard78 Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 I gave you one from the D and C and you told me it didn't count because it has not been fulfilled. What will satisfy you? I have supplied short term revelations (migration to utah) and long term revelations which have not been fulfilled and you are not satisfied even though they are very clear.Specifics and to be a good time into the future. Things that might still be are a different issue.
bluebell Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Actually, I said no such thing. I wrote that Woodruff never mentions war - which he doesn't. I then stated he could have been referring to a number of things - which he very well could have. Woodruff said he saw this all in a vision, why not simply say it's going to be a war instead of the incredibly vague and "mighty changes among the nations of the earth"? Mighty changes in what? Technology, wars, economy, natural disasters, disease, famine, morality? Had WWI not occurred the saints very well could have believed the "mighty changes" were referring to the shift from the strict moral ethics of the Victorian Era to the relatively wild Roaring 20s. Once again, I invite you to re-read the prophecy . It's quite clear from my reading that Woodruff isn't making a prediction about a random event (one that would have occurred irrespective of the saint's/world's wickedness), but one that would occur as a result of a judgement. Why are judgements delivered upon us - because of our actions. So did HF inspire the assassination of Franz Ferdinand as a judgement upon his people? Not sure if that makes sense. Of course it will happen. Can you point me towards one 20-year period since the dawn of civilization that hasn't experienced wars, famines, diseases and afflictions? It's happening now and I can guarantee it will be happening within the next 20 years. Yes, I purposely created my "prophecy" in the same manner as arguably the most common prophecy in the scriptures to make a point. This thread is a perfect example of how prophecies work, make them vague and let the reader fill in the details. We can see in real time how the phrase "the next twenty years will see mighty changes among the nations of the earth" was turned into a variation of "a great war will happen in exactly twenty years". Well, i had commented on each of your points above but that post got lost and I just don't have the energy to do it all again. The gist of it was that I don't have any problem with you not believing the prophecy or even believing it was a prophecy. My point is just that it's not unreasonable for someone to read or listen to Woodruff's policy and believe it to have been fulfilled by WWI. My other point is that most people don't really understand how much WWI changed things, nor do they understand how unprecedented it was to have basically the entire world fighting in a war at the same time. Most people also don't know that the world suffered many famines and other destructions specifically because of WWI. Here is a website that provides an overview on just how influential WWI was to the 20th century and how much it changed the world. It's a PBS website and it's very short and to the point so it would be best just to read the site rather for me to try to summarize. http://www.pbs.org/greatwar/thenandnow/ 3
thesometimesaint Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 If we could look back and identity historic, post-1830 prophecy in the Book of Mormon them it would still work. But there aren't any specific ones.The best so far is the conspiracy theory that the UN is fulfilling the warning (not prophecy) about secret combinations. The Book of Mormon does make some prophecies concerning us. IE; That we may believe in Christ. But I'll argue that most of them concern the Nephites. We are to liken ourselves to the Scriptures. So we don't suffer the same fate as they did.
thesometimesaint Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 I'm not sure ww1 wouldn't occur regardless of whether it was triggered by the assassination or not. The great European empires were falling apart already. So it probably would have happened anyway. But at this point we'll probably never(In this lifetime) know.
carbon dioxide Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Though there are prophecies in the Book of Mormon that pertain to our last days, probably a better exercise is to read it and look for patterns that existed in their day and look for things that are going on in our day. When we see the wealth gap between the rich and poor, pride, wickedness, and other things that existed in their times and what it lead to, we can can get a general idea what is going to happen to us at some point. When we see the conditions that the Church and wickedness that existed among the Nephites before Christ came to them in 3 Nephi, we can get a general idea of what will be the case in the world before Christ comes again to us. Patterns tend to repeat themselves. The Book of Mormon itself is prophetic in that sense. It gives the outline of much of what is going to happen to us as we read about what happened to them.
canard78 Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 Though there are prophecies in the Book of Mormon that pertain to our last days, probably a better exercise is to read it and look for patterns that existed in their day and look for things that are going on in our day. When we see the wealth gap between the rich and poor, pride, wickedness, and other things that existed in their times and what it lead to, we can can get a general idea what is going to happen to us at some point. When we see the conditions that the Church and wickedness that existed among the Nephites before Christ came to them in 3 Nephi, we can get a general idea of what will be the case in the world before Christ comes again to us. Patterns tend to repeat themselves. The Book of Mormon itself is prophetic in that sense. It gives the outline of much of what is going to happen to us as we read about what happened to them.Yep I agree that the BoM has lots of lessons for life and good principles. I don't think I'd equate that to prophecy. Council and guidance, but not prophecy in the nature I was asking for.
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