213 replies to this topic

[Tacenda]

MormonMason, on 23 May 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

That's right, folks! Just rub it in.  I already feel badly enough about being so far away from my books without charitable people like you rubbing it in.  Thanks!  Thanks a lot!  

We still love ya!

[MormonMason]

Tacenda, on 22 May 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

http://www.lds.org/l...M100000176f620a____

I saw this on LDS.org. On it there are questions by different individuals pertaining to the gold plates. Questions that never even entered my mind until now. I have one to add, how did the many authors of the BoM engrave on the gold plates? What did they use? Why didn't this ever cross my mind?

Attempting to return to at least a related subject.  

They would have used one of two items, a sharp stylus of iron or a sharp stylus of hardened ("steeled") copper.  Either would serve the purpose of engraving thin plates of gold alloy.  We pretty much can know that the plates used by Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni were not pure gold because they were said to be made out of "ore" and were referred to as "plates of ore."  Moroni could not make more plates because he did not have "ore."  "Ore" would appear to have been impure gold.  This would have given the plates the relative ease of engraving gold with the hardness and durability required for use in plates for engraving sacred text and history intended to be preserved with less risk of damage to the inscriptions.

[Stone holm]

MormonMason, on 23 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Attempting to return to at least a related subject.  

They would have used one of two items, a sharp stylus of iron or a sharp stylus of hardened ("steeled") copper.  Either would serve the purpose of engraving thin plates of gold alloy.  We pretty much can know that the plates used by Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni were not pure gold because they were said to be made out of "ore" and were referred to as "plates of ore."  Moroni could not make more plates because he did not have "ore."  "Ore" would appear to have been impure gold.  This would have given the plates the relative ease of engraving gold with the hardness and durability required for use in plates for engraving sacred text and history intended to be preserved with less risk of damage to the inscriptions.

What do you mean by "ore".

[canard78]

MormonMason, on 23 May 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

That's right, folks! Just rub it in.  I already feel badly enough about being so far away from my books without charitable people like you rubbing it in.  Thanks!  Thanks a lot!  

Sorry to be the salt in the already festering wound.

Can you not even remember what the title might have been? Has the claim been seconded elsewhere? Like I said, I found it odd that you'd cherry-pick a critic's statement as evidence that a stone box washed down a hill.

[MormonMason]

Stone holm, on 23 May 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

What do you mean by "ore".

A mixture of gold and other metals, such as silver and/or copper; gold in its mineral state.

Copper in chemical ore and in free ore sometimes has gold blended in with it in its natural state, requiring refining to get the gold out.  The converse also is true.  The Nephites apparently hammered out plates out of this kind of ore rather than using purely refined gold for the purpose.

[Stone holm]

MormonMason, on 23 May 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

A mixture of gold and other metals, such as silver and/or copper; gold in its mineral state.

Copper in chemical ore and in free ore sometimes has gold blended in with it in its natural state, requiring refining to get the gold out.  The converse also is true.  The Nephites apparently hammered out plates out of this kind of ore rather than using purely refined gold for the purpose.

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

[blackstrap]

To my knowledge, no direct weighing was ever made but witnesses who hefted them gave various estimates of between 30 and 60 pounds.With a size of about 6 X 6 X 8 inches here are some samples. Solid gold would weigh about 190 pounds. Solid copper would weigh about 90 pounds . Solid aluminum would weigh about  28 pounds. Obviously the plates were not solid , but one would still have to be strong to carry them any distance. Pick up a 25 lb. barbell and run a couple of blocks with it. It will give you an appreciation for the struggles Joseph had on the night he retrieved the plates.

Edited by blackstrap, 12 hours ago.

[Glenn101]

Stone holm, on 23 May 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

It is not certaion that the plates were actually made of gold. There has been speculation that the plates were actually an alloy of copper, gold,and silver. (as has been discussed previously). Tumbaga is such an alloy and was in widespread use in Mesoamerica at the time ofthe Spanish conquest.

Glenn

[ERayR]

Stone holm, on 23 May 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

Read this and follow the citations.

http://www.lds.org/l...000176f620a____

[Stone holm]

ERayR, on 23 May 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

Read this and follow the citations.

http://www.lds.org/l...000176f620a____

Yeah that sounds like about the right heft if they were predominantly gold.

[MormonMason]

Stone holm, on 23 May 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

Yes, they did melt metal.  Sometimes it is advantageous to melt the metals in the ore together as what we would call an alloy.  It would add strength and lessen the weight thereby.  Copper weighs less than gold.  Adding copper lowers the molecular weight of the gold by replacing gold atoms with copper atoms.

I do not recall Joseph Smith mentioning its weight (he did mention dimensions) but I do know that Martin Harris did.  He said it the plates weighed about somewhere from 40 to 60 pounds.  That was another reason why Martin Harris believed from the beginning.  He hefted the plates through the frock they were kept in, could feel their outline and hear the sound of metal, and he knew that even if they had been made of lead Joseph Smith had not credit enough at the time to obtain such a weight of even common lead.  Harris felt he had a tangible artifact and that was evidence to him that there was no trickery.

Of course, Harris tested Joseph several times to try to catch him in fraud at the urging of his wife and neighbors all during the time he acted as scribe.  That added all the more to the sincerity of his belief.

[calmoriah]

MormonMason, on 23 May 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

  I already feel badly enough about being so far away from my books without charitable people like you rubbing it in.  Thanks!  Thanks a lot!  

I know somewhat the same sorrow when I can't access the library in my head and it's sitting right there, just waiting for me to reach out.  

Side issue:  And now for some reason Internet isn't always there when reaching out so if anyone sees me missing something, if it's important PM me about it or just keep drawing it to my attention and  hopefully life, the internet and the answer will coincide one of these days.

[calmoriah]

Palerider, on 23 May 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

I think there was a slight attempt to move the goal post with this statement. A desire to redefine what I was saying in order to parse the issue in your favor.

It was always what I meant by my own comments.  I am sorry for the miscommunication if this is not what you meant.

It took 5 mins to just the this post to be recognized so I have grave doubts about posting any more tonight, sorry...I have almost resorted to throwing my computer across the room, but instead went and did some clutter cleaning to work out my frustration...house is looking pretty good today.

[ERayR]

calmoriah, on 23 May 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

I know somewhat the same sorrow when I can't access the library in my head and it's sitting right there, just waiting for me to reach out.  

As far as my memory I find the storage mechanism works fine but I do have a little trouble with retrieval.

Edited by ERayR, Today, 07:39 AM.