Panel discussion on Prophetic Infallibility

[MrShorty]

14 hours ago, manol said:

With this in mind, might there be "prophets" on earth today who are not members of the leadership of the LDS Church?

If so, might they have anything to say that would be of value to members of the LDS Church? 

An interesting couple of questions. I think it was Spackman in FAIR's podcast that brought up the idea the "prophet" is technically not a priesthood office, so "prophets" can come from all levels and directions. Probably some more conversation to be had around this topic, because I don't think the idea of "prophecies" coming from all levels of the church or even outside of the church is fully settled.

I will say that I think this "arrogance" (for lack of a better word) that we often exhibit as we suggest that truth mostly comes top down from God/Christ to the president of the church to the rest of the church and the world seems to be an interesting part of the problem of prophetic fallibility. For example, when I read Elder Petersen's '54 talk (a response to SCOTUS's decision in Brown v. Board and other parts of the civil rights movement), I see someone who believes that truth has already come into the world through scripture and past prophets and is not, yet, willing to consider that God might be revealing truth to the world through other sources. I guess I'm inclined to agree that a part of the conversation could include questions of how God reveals truth to the world, whether all truth that is revealed will come through our ordained prophets and apostles, and what do we do with truth that comes into the world through secular, government, and cultural sources.

[JAHS]

22 hours ago, manol said:

Ime this is an area where near-death experiencers have a lot to offer because they can speak from an arguably relevant perspective that is not normally available to the rest of us.  Here is a YouTube channel which has compilations of excerpts from NDE accounts arranged by topic:

NDE Compilations - YouTube

In the video @Calm linked to this insight came up:  "Prophets are forthtellers, not foretellers."

With this in mind, might there be "prophets" on earth today who are not members of the leadership of the LDS Church?

If so, might they have anything to say that would be of value to members of the LDS Church? 

Anyone (latter-day saint or not) when moved upon by the Holy Ghost can prophecy and therefore can be called a prophet.
"He(Brigham Young) is a prophet, I am a prophet, you are, and anybody is a prophet who has the testimony of Jesus Christ(Rev 19:10), for that is the spirit of prophecy" (Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses 13:165)

[Kenngo1969]

On 11/15/2024 at 9:00 PM, manol said:

Thank you for pointing this out!  Imo the "no leading astray" doctrine is a very big deal, so imo arriving at a somewhat different conclusion is potentially a very big deal. 

This part of the discussion starts at about 106:31 and goes for a few minutes ...

You expect me to listen to 106 hours of discussion?!    You have overestimated even my tremendous staying power and steely resolve, My Young Padawan!    

What?   Oh.    Sorry!  Couldn't resist!   Carry on!  

[Calm]

I wanted to include this talk as it’s referred to in the discussion.  Have not read it yet

https://www.christopherrandallnicholson.com/are-the-general-authorities-human.html

[Calm]

There is also another highlight around 1 hour and 30 minutes that had Don Bradley talking about one of his favorite topics, Adam God.  Brigham taught it twice in detail in general conference as well as at other times.  Does this make it official church doctrine even at that time?  Do we need to deal with it as revelations. The conclusion of the panel, which I agree with is “no”…because the 15 were not unified in their teaching of this idea.  Orson Pratt for one was very vocally against it.  The need for the 15 to agree in unanimity is a “safeguard”.  And the effort is to avoid group think, all are to be open about their opinions and the intent is to work out what the truth is together.

And yet we are afraid to disagree as a people.  Disagreement is not contention…disagreement with the purpose of finding truth is not contention which is the intent to win (also associated with violence and bloodshed in scripture).  By proving contraries, truth is made manifest….

Btw,

Does anyone know if there is any summary of which apostles accepted the Adam God teaching as truth vs which did not?  Or who were neutral on it?

Edited November 21, 2024 by Calm

[Mfbnew]

On 11/15/2024 at 8:00 PM, manol said:

@Calm, or anyone else, what do you think?

I guess I qualify as a non-Calm person.... 😉

No human is perfect or they would already be helping out on the other side.  Remember that?  Jesus was the only "perfect" person who ever lived.   That means if you are alive, you are imperfect.  

We all have the Spirit to consult- and even asking the question shows that the issue is unresolved for each person asking the question.

It's like the "liar's paradox".  All you will get from sources like these are the opinions of other imperfect people.   So what does that solve?  No liars perhaps but how do we know that THEY know the "truth"- whatever that word means anyway.

Go by the spirit!  Ain't nobody alive who can answer this question!!

Or maybe I am the liar....   🥵 

[manol]

3 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

... if you are alive, you are imperfect.  

We all have the Spirit to consult- and even asking the question shows that the issue is unresolved for each person asking the question.

It's like the "liar's paradox".  All you will get from sources like these are the opinions of other imperfect people.   So what does that solve?  No liars perhaps but how do we know that THEY know the "truth"- whatever that word means anyway.

Go by the spirit!

Agreed.  That's what I try to do. 

I think the dilemma arises when the Spirit is (to the best of one's understanding) saying one thing; and the Church (or its leadership), which that same Spirit confirmed as "true", is saying something different.  I do not think there is a clear and infallible "rule of thumb" solution; I think Alma Chapter 32 and Moroni Chapter 7 are good guidance. 

The best concise commentary I have seen on this subject is a sentence posted by @let’s roll in another thread:

On 11/17/2024 at 10:21 AM, let’s roll said:

  There were two prophets in Jerusalem, one left and one stayed, both had received Divine direction, both followed the direction they had received.

I have tried to imagine the hypothetical conversation Nephi might have had with his stake president:  "Well, I'm pretty sure the Spirit is telling me to cut Uncle Laban's head off and steal his stuff."  While I must admit that the killing of Laban is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around at face value, one take-home lesson seems to be that God the Holy Spirit pretty much out-ranks everyone and everything else we normally have access to down here on this Telestial world. 

In my opinion.

Edited November 22, 2024 by manol