Homosexuality Viewed as a Neurodivergent Trait

[PortalToParis]

• While there are certainly stories of straight men and women who have decided to “experiment” with homosexual activities, most who identify as homosexual report it as being a static aspect of themselves that is present from the age of sexual maturation to the end of their lives, regardless of whether they have ever engaged in homosexual activities or not.

• There have been many explanations put forward to explain this phenomenon, ranging from demonic possession, mental illness, sexual addiction, or trauma from childhood sexual abuse, but none of these have been shown to apply to any majority of the homosexual population.

• Autism is another phenomenon that has been difficult for many to explain, but is now described and understood as a trait of neurodivergence – that is, a neurologically-based occurrence that causes an alteration of neurological functioning not found in the majority of the population.

• Those who have been diagnosed with autism have a higher likelihood as identifying with a non-heterosexual identity. If we view homosexuality as a trait of neurodivergence, this would lead to the understanding that being neurodivergent in one way increases the odds of being neurodivergent in another way: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17794-1

Similarities between those diagnosed with autism and those who identify as homosexual:

• Traits of autism have been described as manifesting over a spectrum. Certain aspects of homosexuality also appear to occur in individuals on a spectrum – there are homosexual men who are able to live in a heterosexual partnership over many years, even fathering children, while others are unable to bring themselves to ever engage with a woman in any sexual way, and still more others feel able to identify as bisexual – showing a wide range of homosexual manifestation – just like is seen in autism, with certain autistic individuals manifesting much more intense traits of autism than others. Studies have shown that there is a certain degree of neurological variation between homosexual men: “There is growing evidence that gay men are not a homogenous single category but may be characterized by distinct biodevelopmental sub-groupings.” www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-74886-0 -- Or, one could perhaps say, a spectrum.

• Researches have looked for a “gay gene”, -- namely, a gene determining whether someone will be homosexual or not, but as of yet they have not been successful finding one. There have biomarkers found to indicate a higher predisposition to be homosexual, but nothing determining: https://www.science.org/doi/epdf/10.1126/science.aat7693 Some have argued that this means there is no biological “proof” of homosexuality. However, there has also not been an "autism gene" found, but despite this it is still accepted that autism is indeed a very real state of being for those who have been diagnosed with it.

• Identical twins are more likely to be of the same sexuality, with a stronger correlation than for non-twin siblings – if one twin identifies as homosexual, the other is much more likely to identify as homosexual as well: https://blogs.iu.edu/kinseyinstitute/2020/06/25/why-do-some-identical-twins-have-different-sexual-orientations/ This is the same for autism – if one twin is found to be on the autism spectrum, the other twin has a very high likelihood of being on the spectrum as well, more so than for non-twin siblings. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/severity-autism-symptoms-varies-greatly-among-identical-twins Note that twins will not always be the same sexuality or always both have autism, indicating it is not a strict gene expression, but rather perhaps a different neurological expression that is causing it to occur. 

• A theory of neurodivergence would help explain why homosexual traits have also been found among so many mammal and bird species: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

• No side-by-side comparisons between two very different categories of traits are ever perfect, and so the analogies made between homosexuality and autism are not meant to be taken as exact equalities. This perspective is only meant to put forward a different perspective of how we can understand the occurrence of certain non-hetero sexualities.

[ZealouslyStriving]

^This is going to go over well.

[The Nehor]

We prefer the term “neurospicy”.

Also you could just say it is a multi-faceted spectrum without needing to compare it to autism.

Bisexuality is a huge umbrella term with a bunch of spectrums in it. Asexuality is a spectrum and overlaps with a lot of other queer identities (and straight identity). Gay and lesbian identities also include spectrums. You mentioned being able to have sex with a non-preferred gender. This is sometimes called “non-sex repulsed”. They might feel no physical attraction but they aren’t repulsed by a non-preferred gender.

It is worth noting that by this standard heterosexuality is also like neurodivergence and is on a spectrum. Some straight guys are repulsed by the appearance of gay sex, some don’t mind it but aren’t interested, and some (as you said) might be open to experiment. Some straight people are borderline asexual or are asexual.

[rpn]

 

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, rpn said:

 

Skyler, I read his book. He advocates for gay men to at least be open to marrying a woman. The counsel that we are told not to encourage anymore.

Having read his story thought I very strongly suspect that he is gay and biromantic. That makes marrying a woman much easier and even desirable. I think he generalizes his private story too much while not accepting that this is much easier for him than others. I am not even sure he knows that sexual and romantic attraction are two different orientations. They are often in alignment but not always.

[california boy]

19 hours ago, rpn said:

 

Next, we will hear from Josh Weed as he tells how successful his marriage was, followed by Dave Matheson who will tell us how he was married for 34 yeas to a woman before he went back to being with men.  Following those remarks, Tom Christofferson who went back to dating men after writing a book about his journey back to Mormonism.  Their remarks will be followed up by our own @SeekingUnderstanding, @Daniel2 and me, @California Boy who will talk about their attempts at marriage to "cure" them of homosexuality by marrying someone of the opposite sex.  The closing speaker for today will be David Archuleta who will put to rest this idea that if gay's just married, they too can be in a heterosexual marriage.

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

Next, we will hear from Josh Weed as he tells how successful his marriage was, followed by Dave Matheson who will tell us how he was married for 34 yeas to a woman before he went back to being with men.  Following those remarks, Tom Christofferson who went back to dating men after writing a book about his journey back to Mormonism.  Their remarks will be followed up by our own @SeekingUnderstanding, @Daniel2 and me, @California Boy who will talk about their attempts at marriage to "cure" them of homosexuality by marrying someone of the opposite sex.  The closing speaker for today will be David Archuleta who will put to rest this idea that if gay's just married, they too can be in a heterosexual marriage.

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 3/30/2024 at 12:51 PM, california boy said:

Next, we will hear from Josh Weed as he tells how successful his marriage was, followed by Dave Matheson who will tell us how he was married for 34 yeas to a woman before he went back to being with men.  Following those remarks, Tom Christofferson who went back to dating men after writing a book about his journey back to Mormonism.  Their remarks will be followed up by our own @SeekingUnderstanding, @Daniel2 and me, @California Boy who will talk about their attempts at marriage to "cure" them of homosexuality by marrying someone of the opposite sex.  The closing speaker for today will be David Archuleta who will put to rest this idea that if gay's just married, they too can be in a heterosexual marriage.

Following those anecdotes, we'll hear absolutely nothing about the quarter-million-or-so American LGBT Saints, off practicing their religion and focusing on other things.  Because they're off practicing their religion and focusing on other things, and not seeking recognition for an aspect of themselves they don't feel the need to emphasize.  Seemingly unbothered by notions of closets or self-acceptance or living a lie or any other buzzwords used by an activist community that thinks they're doing it wrong.

Edited April 1, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Following those anecdotes, we'll hear absolutely nothing about the quarter-million-or-so American LGBT Saints, off practicing their religion and focusing on other things.  Because they're off practicing their religion and focusing on other things, and not seeking recognition for an aspect of themselves they don't feel the need to emphasize.  Seemingly unbothered by notions of closets or self-acceptance or living a lie or any other buzzwords used by an activist community that thinks they're doing it wrong.

So the secret is to stay deeply closeted. If you stand up and try to be an example your life eventually collapses.

Of course a lot of those quarter million are some flavor of bi and are in happy relationships and some of the others are aware of what they are and are trying to hide it knowing the ramifications if someone finds out. Some are teenagers and young adults biding their time until they can bolt once they have economic independence.

Sure, we can just pretend that all of them are perfect saints who would be brilliant exemplars of how to be lgbt in the church.

See, we can both make up stories about these people.

[LoudmouthMormon]

It's always hard when you notice a crack in the ideological adherence dam.   Of course, neither of us know what makes up this quarter-of-a-million-or-so active saints who figure they're somewhere other than 100% straight.  Neither of us knew they existed in such great amounts before that study.  Now you have to fight on new ground, to defend new territory, to preserve your core assumption that gay gotta gay or there's a problem.

Yep, a portion of that quarter-million-or-so are bi.
Yep, a portion are thinking they're closeted and feeling that's wrong on some level.
Yep, a portion are teens and YA biding their time until they can break away.

But no matter how much you don't want it to be true, no matter how many strawmen you hide behind, however many opposing points you mischaracterize, some of that ~250-270 thousand members of the church are content to just be saints.  Just doing their best to be disciples of Christ.  Finding ways to deal with their troubles.  Enduring to the end.  Finding and giving love and acceptance.  Just like the rest of us saints. 

Probably there are more like my buddy - going through life utterly unconcerned with what the activists and progressives and current cultural wind pushers have to say about who he is, how he should feel, and what he should do about stuff.  The majority of my deep discussions with him on such matters are all about how to do right by God, by ourselves, and by our wives.  

 

 

Edited April 2, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[pogi]

Nevermind

 

Edited April 2, 2024 by pogi

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's always hard when you notice a crack in the ideological adherence dam.   Of course, neither of us know what makes up this quarter-of-a-million-or-so active saints who figure they're somewhere other than 100% straight.  Neither of us knew they existed in such great amounts before that study.  Now you have to fight on new ground, to defend new territory, to preserve your core assumption that gay gotta gay or there's a problem.

Of course I knew they existed. It is below the average (because many leave) but why would this be a surprise? So you can dump the condescending patronization angle you are going with here. This isn’t new ground for me.

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yep, a portion of that quarter-million-or-so are bi.
Yep, a portion are thinking they're closeted and feeling that's wrong on some level.
Yep, a portion are teens and YA biding their time until they can break away.

Okay.

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

But no matter how much you don't want it to be true, no matter how many strawmen you hide behind, however many opposing points you mischaracterize, some of that ~250-270 thousand members of the church are content to just be saints.  Just doing their best to be disciples of Christ.  Finding ways to deal with their troubles.  Enduring to the end.  Finding and giving love and acceptance.  Just like the rest of us saints. 

Of course some are. All I was saying is many are not dealing with it as well as your rosy colored picture. I am on the front lines of it in some ways. I frequent the places scared teens go to when they realize what they are. I see some of those who make peace with it within the faith. I see the ones torn in two. I see some of the fallout that happens when people are found out or reveal themselves.

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Probably there are more like my buddy - going through life utterly unconcerned with what the activists and progressives and current cultural wind pushers have to say about who he is, how he should feel, and what he should do about stuff.  The majority of my deep discussions with him on such matters are all about how to do right by God, by ourselves, and by our wives.  

Good luck to him.

[california boy]

23 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's always hard when you notice a crack in the ideological adherence dam.   Of course, neither of us know what makes up this quarter-of-a-million-or-so active saints who figure they're somewhere other than 100% straight.  Neither of us knew they existed in such great amounts before that study.  Now you have to fight on new ground, to defend new territory, to preserve your core assumption that gay gotta gay or there's a problem.

Yep, a portion of that quarter-million-or-so are bi.
Yep, a portion are thinking they're closeted and feeling that's wrong on some level.
Yep, a portion are teens and YA biding their time until they can break away.

But no matter how much you don't want it to be true, no matter how many strawmen you hide behind, however many opposing points you mischaracterize, some of that ~250-270 thousand members of the church are content to just be saints.  Just doing their best to be disciples of Christ.  Finding ways to deal with their troubles.  Enduring to the end.  Finding and giving love and acceptance.  Just like the rest of us saints. 

Probably there are more like my buddy - going through life utterly unconcerned with what the activists and progressives and current cultural wind pushers have to say about who he is, how he should feel, and what he should do about stuff.  The majority of my deep discussions with him on such matters are all about how to do right by God, by ourselves, and by our wives.  

Not a surprise to me either. I was also one of those members who desperately wanted to figure out some way to make being gay and still be a member of the Church.  I struggled with getting that to fit about half of my life.  I know some white knuckle it for as long as they can.  Some manage to make it work for their whole lives.  Obviously if it works for them and that is how they want to live their lives, I have absolutely no problem with that.  

The sad part is, this is a very difficult struggle to navigate through.  83% of LGBT Mormons say the Church is unfriendly towards them.  That is a pretty hight percentage who are pretty unhappy with how the Church treats them.  It is why eventually most leave.   Really a no win situation no matter what the choice because the Church forces them to make a choice.  It becomes an either or situation.  If that is how the Church wants to deal with this issue, then that is their choice as well.  But in doing so, the Church looses a lot of really great people that become casualties of that dilemma.  

It is not just the Mormon Church.  According to Pew,  48% say they have no religious affiliation, compared with 20% in the general public.  This is true among all age groups. 80% say that the Mormon Church, as well as Catholic and Muslin say religion is unfriendly towards them.  Evangelics don't do much better at 73%.  If the goal of church is to bring people closer to God, they definitely are not doing a good job of that among the LGBT community.

[LoudmouthMormon]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am on the front lines of it in some ways. I frequent the places scared teens go to when they realize what they are. I see some of those who make peace with it within the faith. I see the ones torn in two. I see some of the fallout that happens when people are found out or reveal themselves.

Ya know, me too.  Maybe to a lesser extent than you, but me too.  I don't go looking specifically for scared teens (I'm assuming you don't either), but when we raised our kids and taught them art, we went online to see where the fresh undiscovered artistic talent hung out.  Discord servers and DeviantArt and Bandcamp and YouTube and Twitter and Instagram and a dozen other sites and apps.  And you can't swing a 10 page fanfic in those spaces without encountering half a dozen angsty teens going through the melodrama of youth.  

Now my kiddos are all grown up, and I'm still there following my favorites and watching the drama.  Sometimes contributing to the conversation.  I did it last decade to remain conversant with my GenY/GenZ kiddos, now I do it for the same reason people work to stay fluent in a foreign language.   And because holy crap is GenZ chock full of artistic creativity and talent!  

Anyway, back to the thread.

 

Yeah, those kids all exist, but also my buddy in his '40's exists, and my in-law relative in Utah exists.  And that survey result leads me to believe there are a lot more of 'em than I thought.  (And by "'em", I mean folks with different leanings/tendencies/desires/urges/proclivities, who don't let those aspects stop them from living full and fulfilling lives as just another random saint.) 

Somewhere in the mid '90's, the notion "You can't be gay and mormon and ok" sort of won majority approval.   That survey result is probably the biggest blow to the notion I've seen in decades - especially with Caliboy's anecdotes of folks who were public and eventually fell away.  

Edited April 3, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Some manage to make it work for their whole lives.

Ya know, this statement can easily be expanded to general swaths of humanity.  This is true for folks in general.  Nothing specific to orientation or gender or even religion here.   I'm in my '50's now, and every year, this notion is closer and nearer to my soul.   I mean, I don't have an ounce of gay in me, but I have no small amount of baggage and crap I'm tasked with shouldering through my mortal probation.  And now I'm thinking "He made it work for his whole life" is a new top contender for my epitaph.  That's some "Well done thou good and faithful servant" stuff right there.  I'm so glad for a church that's willing to take me despite my baggage.  I've confessed it to no fewer than 3 bishops, and I can vouch for the healing and transformative power of the atonement.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

If the goal of church is to bring people closer to God, they definitely are not doing a good job of that among the LGBT community.

The thing that continues to startle me, is how many of "these folks" have zero involvement in the community.  Out of the debate, zero things in common, zero interest in hearing more.  There's more than I thought.  (And again, my buddy is more than willing to offer physical combat to anyone wishing to insert themselves into his personal life with accusations of "closeted" or anything similar.)

I mean, the church doesn't change to fit it's members.  The church offers ways to change because we figure it'll bring the greatest amount of happiness in life and the eternities.  There's a never-ending tsunami of scoffing retorts, yet we are undaunted.   Because, after all, some manage to make it work for their whole lives.  

Edited April 3, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Not a surprise to me either. I was also one of those members who desperately wanted to figure out some way to make being gay and still be a member of the Church.  I struggled with getting that to fit about half of my life.  I know some white knuckle it for as long as they can.  Some manage to make it work for their whole lives.  Obviously if it works for them and that is how they want to live their lives, I have absolutely no problem with that.  

The sad part is, this is a very difficult struggle to navigate through.  83% of LGBT Mormons say the Church is unfriendly towards them.  That is a pretty hight percentage who are pretty unhappy with how the Church treats them. 

What defines/is an example of the Church being unfriendly or treating them poorly that can be improved by the Church?

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 

 

[pogi]

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What defines/is an example of the Church being unfriendly or treating them poorly that can be improved by the Church?

 

Stop telling them “we just need to find you a good girl” as a solution to their problems for starters.

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Stop telling them “we just need to find you a good girl” as a solution to their problems for starters.

So, don't dismiss difficult struggles with simplistic answers.

Good.

Anything else?

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So, don't dismiss difficult struggles with simplistic answers.

Good.

Anything else?

Don’t create a culture that puts deep shame onto queer kids so they have to hide their sexuality to avoid social exclusion and othering in church culture.

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Don’t create a culture that puts deep shame onto queer kids so they have to hide their sexuality to avoid social exclusion and othering in church culture.

How would that be done?

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

How would that be done?

No idea. I would go the revelation route to figure it out.

[ZealouslyStriving]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No idea. I would go the revelation route to figure it out.

Why would revelation be necessary?

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Why would revelation be necessary?

Because it is hard to tell someone that one of their sweetest desires to be close to someone is almost as bad as murder if they try to act on it. Well, not hard. It is pretty easy. The hard part is that person not being deeply ashamed of themselves and viewing themselves as wrong or a mistake or unworthy or whatever.

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because it is hard to tell someone that one of their sweetest desires to be close to someone is almost as bad as murder if they try to act on it. Well, not hard. It is pretty easy. The hard part is that person not being deeply ashamed of themselves and viewing themselves as wrong or a mistake or unworthy or whatever.

I believe what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong)- the only way to be friendly and make gays/queers feel welcome is by receiving revelation opening up the Law of Chastity to homosexual behavior? Anything less is insufficient?

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I believe what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong)- the only way to be friendly and make gays/queers feel welcome is by receiving revelation opening up the Law of Chastity to homosexual behavior? Anything less is insufficient?

Maybe there is some nuanced way to stop making them feel like abominations but I don’t know what it is. Hence why I suggested revelation. If there is a way God will know it. The current silence is not exactly encouraging.