Are there Biblical Scriptures that My LDS Friends Believe Refer Specifically and Only to the LDS Church?

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Ezekiel 37 mentions that the two sticks are two nations; the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
It's not two books.

The first 3 letters of my name are "buk", referring to beech trees, upon the wood of which "books" were written.  Look up the etymology if you like.  One sound, many meanings in many languages telling the stories of nations.

The history and beliefs of two nations ARE what make a nation!

You know, the constitution, founding fathers the revolution, civil war, civil rights, and all that! It's the flag, the MIX OF NATIONALITIES that make the culture and language of -US- as one "nation" under God. ( I wish! )

You're literally missing the forest for the trees! 

The books are the culture, the culture is the nation!

https://www.etymonline.com/word/book#etymonline_v_15603

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by mfbukowski

[theplains]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:27 PM, mfbukowski said:

The history and beliefs of two nations ARE what make a nation!

Are you referring to the physical joining of two nations into a (one nation) of physical
Israel or a spiritual joining to form one spiritual nation?

[theplains]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:48 PM, InCognitus said:

Ezekiel states that the two wooden writing tablets come together in the hand of a prophet just as the Lord begins the gathering again:  "These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations".  

Has Israel started gathering?  If so, then the two writing tablets have come together. 

What type of gathering are you talking about?  And to where?

[InCognitus]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

What type of gathering are you talking about?  And to where?

Gathering of literal Israel into the various stakes of Zion, and into their own lands.  

[theplains]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:04 AM, InCognitus said:

Gathering of literal Israel into the various stakes of Zion, and into their own lands.  

Ezekiel is not speaking of that. He is referring to the physical land where the
house of Israel and the house of Judah occupied.  They would be gathered
together as they were before they split into two kingdoms.

Edited December 5, 2023 by theplains

[InCognitus]

9 hours ago, theplains said:

On 11/28/2023 at 11:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Gathering of literal Israel into the various stakes of Zion, and into their own lands.  

Ezekiel is not speaking of that. He is referring to the physical land where the
house of Israel and the house of Judah occupied.  They would be gathered
together as they were before they split into two kingdoms.

Actually, Ezekiel breaks it down in Ezekiel 37:21-22 like this (from the quote in my prior post):  

"Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am

1. gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations;
2. I will assemble them from every quarter and
3. restore them to their own soil.  
4. I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...."

Gathering literal Israel into the stakes of Zion occurs in #1 and #2.  #3 can happen concurrently with #1 and #2, but won't be completely fulfilled until #4 when Christ returns and "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15) and the LORD will "set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd." (Ezekiel 34:23)

[theplains]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:01 PM, InCognitus said:

Actually, Ezekiel breaks it down in Ezekiel 37:21-22 like this (from the quote in my prior post):  

"Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am

1. gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations;
2. I will assemble them from every quarter and
3. restore them to their own soil.  
4. I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...."

Gathering literal Israel into the stakes of Zion occurs in #1 and #2.  #3 can happen concurrently with #1 and #2, but won't be completely fulfilled until #4 when Christ returns and "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15) and the LORD will "set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd." (Ezekiel 34:23)

Are you talking about the gathering of literal Israel or spiritual Israel into the stakes of Zion?

For 2,3,4, I would say this is the restoration of physical Israel to the land of their inheritance,
like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament.

In #4, what and where do you believe is the single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel?

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

Are you talking about the gathering of literal Israel or spiritual Israel into the stakes of Zion?

I thought I was clear on that when I said:  "Gathering literal Israel into the stakes of Zion occurs in #1 and #2."   But what is the real difference between "literal" and "spiritual" Israel?  Is not a literal descendant of one of the twelve tribes of Israel part of spiritual Israel as well, when they have the law written in their hearts? 

Literal Israel is being gathered now, from all of the twelve tribes.  President Nelson has said, "Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord". 

The designation of Ephraim is often given in the Old Testament to represent all of the ten northern tribes of Israel.  The people of the Book of Mormon are only a portion of those ten tribes that were scattered, but their record coming forth is important to the gathering, as Ezekiel describes.

7 hours ago, theplains said:

For 2,3,4, I would say this is the restoration of physical Israel to the land of their inheritance,
like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament.

First, I disagree on #2, the gathering and assembling of the people precedes them being "restored" to their own soil.  The KJV puts it this way:  "I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land" (Ezekiel 37:21).  

Second, "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith of the Old Testament" is what #4 is all about, but this will most likely happen primarily after the second coming of Christ.  And it's not just limited to the land "at their zenith of the Old Testament", because God's promises to Joseph extends far beyond that (see below).

7 hours ago, theplains said:

In #4, what and where do you believe is the single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel?

Israel will inherit the lands promised to them, some of them as it is described in Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33.  Some of those lands go beyond what is described during the Biblical time when there was a northern and southern kingdom.

Jacob's blessing to his son, Joseph (Genesis 49:22-26, Deuteronomy 33:13-17), has an interesting promise.  Verse 26 of Genesis 49 reads, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren." 

The Rashi (Jewish Rabbi) commentary on this verse has this to say:

"עד תאות גבעות עולם EVEN TO THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EVERLASTING HILLS — Because my blessings have prevailed, extending to the very ends of the bounds of the everlasting hills, for He gave me a blessing that bursts all bounds, one that has no limits, that reaches even unto the four corners of the world, as it is stated, (Genesis 28:14) '[God said to Jacob] and thou shalt spread abroad to the West and to the East [and to the North and to the South]', an unqualified promise that was made neither to Abraham nor to Isaac. For to Abraham He said, (Genesis 13:14) “Lift up thine eyes and look northwards etc. … for all the land which thou seest to thee will I give it”, and He showed him only the Land of Israel. To Isaac He said, (Genesis 26:3) “for unto thee and unto thy seed will I give all these lands, and I will establish the oath [which I swore unto Abraham thy father]”. It is to this that Isaiah alludes when he said, (Isaiah 58:14) “And I will feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father” (Shabbat 118b), and he did not say, “with the heritage promised to Abraham”."

So, the land areas that Israel inherits surpasses what they were allowed to have during the land assignments by Joshua.  But ultimately they become "one nation" under God and his Christ.

[theplains]

On 12/7/2023 at 11:43 PM, InCognitus said:

I thought I was clear on that when I said:  "Gathering literal Israel into the stakes of Zion occurs in #1 and #2."   But what is the real difference between "literal" and "spiritual" Israel?  Is not a literal descendant of one of the twelve tribes of Israel part of spiritual Israel as well, when they have the law written in their hearts?

Yes. You have a point about literal being spiritual if the literal are those who have 
the law written in their hearts. But Ezekiel 37:21-22 is not speaking of gathering 
Israel into stakes of Zion in countries like Australia, Japan, or China. Nor is he 
speaking about gathering two books (the Bible and Book of Mormon) to encompass
the fulness of the gospel.

"And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king 
shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer 
divided into two kingdoms" (ESV)

The two kingdoms (or nations) refer to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The 
mountains of Israel are not mountains in America or Nepal. The land is not the lands of
all the countries of the world where you believe the stakes of Zion are.
 

On 12/7/2023 at 11:43 PM, InCognitus said:

The designation of Ephraim is often given in the Old Testament to represent all of the ten northern tribes of Israel.

Yes. The ten tribes which are referred to as God's firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9.
 

On 12/7/2023 at 11:43 PM, InCognitus said:

The people of the Book of Mormon are only a portion of those ten tribes that were scattered

You missed representatives of the tribe of Judah when you excluded the Mulekites
and the descendants of Zoram (tribe unknown).  It is unclear if all those who
departed with Mulek were not a mixture of any other tribes too. Or maybe you 
believe Mulek and the faithful Mulekites and the faithful descendants of Zoram 
are not relevant.
 

On 12/7/2023 at 11:43 PM, InCognitus said:

Jacob's blessing to his son, Joseph (Genesis 49:22-26, Deuteronomy 33:13-17), has an interesting promise.  Verse 26 of Genesis 49 reads, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

I've seen that the "utmost bound of the everlasting hills" is taught to be the western 
hemisphere in the Book of Mormon Student Manual.

"President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: "The Lord gave … America, as an 
everlasting possession to Joseph, the son of Jacob. His posterity, when cleansed from 
sin, and when they come forth in the resurrection, shall inherit this part of the earth".

Imagine that. Ephraim and Manasseh get all (?) of America (north?, south?, central?) but 
the ten tribes only get their tiny portion in the Middle East.  

Or maybe, according to a supposed revelation, they just get one specific land as their
inheritance; Missouri (Doctrine and Covenants 52:42 – "And thus, even as I have said, if ye
are faithful ye shall assemble yourselves together to rejoice upon the land of Missouri,
which is the land of your inheritance, which is now the land of your enemies").

Utah is never mentioned as a land of inheritance.

Edited December 12, 2023 by theplains

[InCognitus]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Yes. You have a point about literal being spiritual if the literal are those who have 
the law written in their hearts. But Ezekiel 37:21-22 is not speaking of gathering 
Israel into stakes of Zion in countries like Australia, Japan, or China. Nor is he 
speaking about gathering two books (the Bible and Book of Mormon) to encompass
the fulness of the gospel.

"And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king 
shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer 
divided into two kingdoms" (ESV)

You’re reverting again to the beginning of our discussion and ignoring everything that has been said so far, because this has already been explained.  You keep trying to jump ahead to steps #3 and #4, but we need to fulfill steps #1 and #2 first (I’ll reiterate those four steps in a moment).

To review, this is the complete chronology as explained in Ezekiel 37:15-22, using again the New English Bible translation:

"These were the words of the LORD to me:  Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, 'Judah and his associates of Israel.'  Then take another leaf and write on it,  'Joseph, the leaf of Ephriaim and all his associates of Israel.'  Now bring the two together to form one tablet; then they will be a folding tablet in your hand.  When your fellow-country-men ask you to tell them what you mean by this, say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am taking the leaf of Joseph, which belongs to Ephraim and his associate tribes of Israel, and joining to it the leaf of Judah.  Thus I shall make them one tablet, and they shall be one in my hand.  The leaves on which you write shall be visible in your hand for all to see.
   Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations; I will assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil.  I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...."

So, before any gathering takes place, the writings upon the tablet of Judah need to be joined together with the writings upon the tablet of Ephraim and his associates in the hand of a prophet, and they become "one tablet" in his hand for everyone to see.  This is the key to understanding the beginning of the gathering, because Ezekiel continues as follows (and this is where I reiterate the four steps):  

"Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am

1. gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations;
2. I will assemble them from every quarter and
3. restore them to their own soil.  
4. I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...."

How does #1 happen?  Where is Israel "gathered" from their places of exile among the nations before they can be "assembled" (#2) and restored to their own soil in #3 and #4? 

Isaiah gives us a very similar prophecy in 11:10-16.  He describes the events like this:

Quote

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
(Isaiah 11:10–16)

Notice that Isaiah describes a pattern that is identical to Ezekiel.  First, an ensign is set up for the nations (very much like Ezekiel's writings of Judah and Ephraim coming together in the hand of a prophet), and the Lord begins to recover the remnant of his people.  And notice that the gathering and assembly of the people happens prior to them going back to their lands.  They can't start heading back to their lands until they recognize who they are and are gathered. You haven't accounted for that portion of these prophecies. 

You claim this is "not speaking of gathering Israel into stakes of Zion in countries like Australia, Japan, or China".  What evidence do you have that they are not gathered or assembled in one or more of those places prior to them returning to their own lands later on?  How does this gathering work in your view?  Does one of these scattered people just wake up one morning in China and say to themselves, "Hey, I think I'm of the tribe of Issachar. I feel like migrating, so I'm going to catch a plane to Israel today".  Or how do they become recognized for who they are so they can be "gathered" and return to their own lands?

What about Russia?  Does that count?  That's where Sister Nelson was when she said they had identified members of all twelve of the tribes of Israel in a 2018 conference.  Recognizing (or self recognition of) who these people are is an important step that needs to happen before they can return to their own lands, don't you think?  That happens through their coming to Christ in the gospel.

14 hours ago, theplains said:

The two kingdoms (or nations) refer to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The 
mountains of Israel are not mountains in America or Nepal. The land is not the lands of
all the countries of the world where you believe the stakes of Zion are.

You are putting limits on God's promises to Israel and not taking into account the prophesies that have been given about their lands of inheritance if you assume that Ezekiel is talking only of "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament."  And, I'm not talking about only of the promises made to Joseph.

To Abraham God made this covenant, "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Genesis 15:18).  This extends far beyond "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament."  

And some of the tribes were given areas that go beyond what was allotted to them in Joshua 19.  Take Zebulun for example.  In Jacob's blessing to Zebulun in Genesis 49, it says "Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon." (Genesis 49:13)  How many maps of the land allotments to the twelve tribes of Israel show Zebulun having a sea shore with a "haven of ships", let alone a border extending up to Sidon?

This map shows Zebulun land locked, with Sidon in the upper sea shore region of Asher:

When Zebulun is restored to his own soil, will he still receive the little land locked area shown above, or will he get what the Lord actually promised him in his blessing?

Furthermore, in the last two chapters of Ezekiel (47-48), a final vision is shown to Ezekiel of the future restoration of Israel where he sees a new temple and waters issuing forth to heal the land and they even heal the waters of the Dead Sea.  Then the boundaries of Israel are completely expanded and realigned, extending way farther north than the prior land area (up to Hamath).  So their land of their inheritance, after Christ returns, will be far different than "like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament."  

But none of the tribes get returned to their own soil until steps #3 and #4 of my breakdown of Ezekiel's prophecy, which I presume will be when Christ returns, since that is the only time they will have "one king" over them.

14 hours ago, theplains said:

On 12/7/2023 at 9:43 PM, InCognitus said:

The people of the Book of Mormon are only a portion of those ten tribes that were scattered

You missed representatives of the tribe of Judah when you excluded the Mulekites
and the descendants of Zoram (tribe unknown).  It is unclear if all those who
departed with Mulek were not a mixture of any other tribes too. Or maybe you 
believe Mulek and the faithful Mulekites and the faithful descendants of Zoram 
are not relevant.

When I said the people of the Book of Mormon are only a "portion" of those ten tribes that were scattered, I didn't say how many tribes were included, nor did I infer that it was only one tribe.  So no, I didn't miss this.  

14 hours ago, theplains said:

I've seen that the "utmost bound of the everlasting hills" is taught to be the western 
hemisphere in the Book of Mormon Student Manual.

"President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: "The Lord gave … America, as an 
everlasting possession to Joseph, the son of Jacob. His posterity, when cleansed from 
sin, and when they come forth in the resurrection, shall inherit this part of the earth".

Imagine that. Ephraim and Manasseh get all (?) of America (north?, south?, central?) but 
the ten tribes only get their tiny portion in the Middle East.  

Or maybe, according to a supposed revelation, they just get one specific land as their
inheritance; Missouri (Doctrine and Covenants 52:42 – "And thus, even as I have said, if ye
are faithful ye shall assemble yourselves together to rejoice upon the land of Missouri,
which is the land of your inheritance, which is now the land of your enemies").

Utah is never mentioned as a land of inheritance.

Given that the "meek shall inherit the earth" (Psalm 37:9-11, 18-22 and 34, Matthew 5:5), I'd say that covers everything as a land of inheritance when Christ returns.

Edited December 13, 2023 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 12/13/2023 at 12:45 AM, InCognitus said:

Given that the "meek shall inherit the earth" (Psalm 37:9-11, 18-22 and 34, Matthew 5:5), I'd say that covers everything as a land of inheritance when Christ returns.

It seems you are drawing a distinction between the meek Israelites who will have
specific lands for their inheritance and non-Israelites who will inherit generic
lands for theirs. Unless the meek Irish will inherit Ireland as their inheritance
and the meek Mexicans will inherit Mexico as theirs. Or maybe the meek Irish will 
be spread all other the world for their inheritance.

Do you believe Ezekiel 37:21-22 is the gathering of Israel into stakes of Zion in 
countries like Australia, Japan, or China?

[theplains]

On 12/13/2023 at 12:45 AM, InCognitus said:

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Who do you believe this is a reference to?

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

It seems you are drawing a distinction between the meek Israelites who will have
specific lands for their inheritance and non-Israelites who will inherit generic
lands for theirs.

I'm not making any distinction.  I'm just quoting what the scripture says.

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Ezekiel 37:21-22 is the gathering of Israel into stakes of Zion in 
countries like Australia, Japan, or China?

I explained that in my last post.  If, some of the literal tribes of Israel are found to be in Australia, Japan, or China, then they would be "gathered" and "assembled" there according to steps #1 and #2 of Ezekiel's prophesy, prior to them being returned to their own soil (wherever that may be) in steps #3 and #4 which comes later on.

In your prior post you claimed this is "not speaking of gathering Israel into stakes of Zion in countries like Australia, Japan, or China".  What evidence do you have that they are not gathered or assembled in one or more of those places prior to them returning to their own lands later on?  How does this gathering work in your view?  Does one of these scattered people just wake up one morning in China and say to themselves, "Hey, I think I'm of the tribe of Issachar. I feel like migrating, so I'm going to catch a plane to Israel today".  Or how do they become recognized for who they are so they can be "gathered" and return to their own lands?

1 hour ago, theplains said:

On 12/12/2023 at 10:45 PM, InCognitus said:

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Who do you believe this is a reference to?

See:  DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS STUDENT MANUALSECTION 113, ISAIAH INTERPRETED.  

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I explained that in my last post.

Your patience is astounding  🤔

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

What evidence do you have that they are not gathered or assembled in one or more of those places prior to them returning to their own lands later on?  How does this gathering work in your view?  Does one of these scattered people just wake up one morning in China and say to themselves, "Hey, I think I'm of the tribe of Issachar. I feel like migrating, so I'm going to catch a plane to Israel today".  Or how do they become recognized for who they are so they can be "gathered" and return to their own lands?

This is the key and one of the functions of believing in the necessity of genealogical research- we discover how close we really are as brothers and sisters in the pool of humanity.

I for example believed myself to be 100% Polish in genealogy, yet in searching DNA, I also am about 1% Turkish!  I was unaware that the Turks, (like virtually every other country  in Eurasia) occupied central Europe and Poland and held it for iirc a short period.

Without turning our hearts to our fathers and mothers, one of God's purposes in creating this earth, and the re-gathering of "Israel", we would never be able to see our numerous races as all part of one human family!

Malachi tells us that the very purpose of creation would then be thwarted and that the earth would be a "wasted" effort by the time the Lord returned for His second coming.

https://rsc.byu.edu/sperry-symposium-classics-doctrine-covenants/redemption-dead-dc-2#:~:text=And he [Elijah] shall plant,1%3A37–39).

I think we just fly past that scripture without giving it much thought, but it is hugely important! 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by mfbukowski

[theplains]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:17 PM, InCognitus said:

See:  DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS STUDENT MANUALSECTION 113, ISAIAH INTERPRETED.  

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the 
people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious".

The word rest in that verse points to Rest (in the Topical Guide). If I'm not mistaken, I
don't see anything about Joseph Smith in those references. Rather, they point to Christ.

I see that the Doctrine and Covenants identifies him as Joseph Smith.  

In the Book of Revelation, Jesus himself affirms, “I am the Root and the Offspring of
David".  I would see this as also being the Root and Offspring of Jesse since David
also comes through Jesse.

Probably the clearest identity of the root of Jesse is Paul's teaching in Romans 15:12.
"And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over
the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust".

It's convenient that Joseph Smith identifies himself as the root in section 113.  In the JST
of some parts of Genesis, I think he also puts himself into a verse or two.

[InCognitus]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:39 AM, theplains said:

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the 
people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious".

The word rest in that verse points to Rest (in the Topical Guide). If I'm not mistaken, I
don't see anything about Joseph Smith in those references. Rather, they point to Christ.

I think you are mistaken.  Many of the references in the Topical Guide point to the “rest” that comes to true believers and followers of Christ.  Such as:

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)

“For we which have believed do enter into rest” (Hebrews 4:3)

“Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.” (Hebrews 4:11)

And also this, from Doctrine and Covenants, which is talking about the “rest” that will come to righteous individuals during the Millennium:

“In that day an infant shall not die until he is old; and his life shall be as the age of a tree;  And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, and his rest shall be glorious.”

So Joseph Smith would easily be included in this category of “rest”.

On 12/26/2023 at 8:39 AM, theplains said:

I see that the Doctrine and Covenants identifies him as Joseph Smith.  

The Doctrine and Covenants doesn’t specifically identify the person.  Rather, the Doctrine and Covenants student manual interprets the passage in section 113:3-6 as most likely referring to Joseph Smith.

On 12/26/2023 at 8:39 AM, theplains said:

In the Book of Revelation, Jesus himself affirms, “I am the Root and the Offspring of
David".  I would see this as also being the Root and Offspring of Jesse since David
also comes through Jesse.

Doctrine and Covenants 113 identifies Christ as the stem of Jesse in Isaiah 11.

On 12/26/2023 at 8:39 AM, theplains said:

Probably the clearest identity of the root of Jesse is Paul's teaching in Romans 15:12.
"And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over
the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust".

It's convenient that Joseph Smith identifies himself as the root in section 113.  In the JST
of some parts of Genesis, I think he also puts himself into a verse or two.

Or, the Lord revealed that to him instead of Joseph putting himself into scripture.

The important point to remember is that these events precede the gathering of Israel, whether it be the two tablets that come "together to form one tablet" in the hand of a prophet as Ezekiel says, or whether it be the ensign that is set up as Isaiah says.  These are signs to indicate the beginning of the gathering of Israel.

[Pyreaux]

The Bible and the Book of Mormon is the sign of the prophecy, not what the prophecy itself is about. When Ezekiel lays down while speaking about the fall of Israel, he's not prophesying that people will lay down. When Ezekiel shaves his head while speaking about becoming captives, he's not prophesying about shaved heads. When Ezekial joins the two books of Judah and Joseph into one book while speaking about the gathering of Israel, he's indeed not prophesying about books. These are the signs they will see when the prophecies are coming to pass. At the time Israel falls, Israel will see men laying on the ground. At the time Israel is captive, Israel will see men with shaved heads, as slaves. At the time when the gathering of Israel will take place is when we will see the joining of two books for Judah and Joseph joined into one hand. When people see the sign, they should know that Ezekiel's prophesy has come to pass.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon are easily described as two books of Judah and Joseph that were joined into one canon in LDS hands, at the same time the LDS start gathering Israel. Literal Israel being dispersed among Gentiles and as Gentiles become adopted into Israel by baptism by LDS priests, is a literal Israel in a very legal sense. And on a global scale, soon after the joining of these books, the nation of Israel is reinstituted, and Jews literally start to return there. If either of those things means Ezekiel's prophecy is beginning to be fulfilled, that must mean the Ezekiel's visual sign of his prophesy of two books joining together must have been seen by someone, somewhere by now. You may not accept it, but it's a very literal interpretation of the words in the Book of Ezekiel. What other alternative signs have come? Why is the Bible and the Book of Mormon not thee greatest candidate for this sign, if they are both true?

Edited December 31, 2023 by Pyreaux

[theplains]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:22 PM, InCognitus said:

I think you are mistaken.  Many of the references in the Topical Guide point to the “rest” that comes to true believers and followers of Christ.  Such as:

I can see that believers will enter into the rest of Christ.  

“And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of 
the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10).

“His rest” is a reference to Christ’s rest, not a rest provided by or in Joseph Smith.
  
This is what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans 15:8-12.  It is also taught in other places; 
some of which you quoted in your last reply. 

“And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed 
not?” (Hebrews 3:18). “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering 
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it” (Hebrews 4:1). “For he that is 
entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his” 
(Hebrews 4:10).

One of the most clear explanations of how Latter-day Saints interpret Doctrine and Covenants 
113 is found in a 2015 seminary manual.  It's called "Old Testament Study Guide for Home-Study 
Seminary Students".  The rod and the root are both taught to be Joseph Smith.

But based on Isaiah 11:1-5,10; Romans 15:8-12; and Revelation Revelation 22:16, I would say 
they all paint a picture of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith.

The Branch of Isaiah 11:1 is Christ (also alluded to in Jeremiah 33:14-16).

“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of 
his roots”.

I believe Joseph Smith, while he may have been sincere, did not endure to the end and he
failed to enter Christ’s rest. The main reason: he led his followers to worship a different God; a
not from everlasting to everlasting God; but a man who he taught became a God and later 
went on to become the Heavenly Father of Earth.

[JAHS]

On 11/2/2023 at 7:11 AM, Navidad said:

Are there Biblical Scriptures that My LDS Friends Believe Refer Specifically and Only to the LDS Church? Thanks

1 Peter 3:18–20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 

4:6 
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Jesus said:
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5: 25)

1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Most Christian faiths do not have a reasonable interpretation for these scriptures.

Martin Luther in his Commentary said this bout the Peter scriptures:
"A wonderful text is this, and a more obscure passage perhaps than any other in the New Testament, so that I do not know for a certainty just what Peter means." 

Edited January 3 by JAHS

[Pyreaux]

 

On 1/3/2024 at 12:33 PM, theplains said:

I believe Joseph Smith, while he may have been sincere, did not endure to the end and he
failed to enter Christ’s rest. The main reason: he led his followers to worship a different God; a
not from everlasting to everlasting God; but a man who he taught became a God and later 
went on to become the Heavenly Father of Earth.

Hey, just because you think there is no account of God's backstory doesn't mean he doesn't have a backstory and that such an extra-Biblical account is incompatible with the Bible, that's just an Argument from Silence. We've gone 'round before, that every "everlasting" (olam) means "hidden-time", as in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance it's an amount of time that's "concealed, i.e. The vanishing point" so its "time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; ancient (time), long (time). The olam hills in Genesis 49:26; Habakkuk 3:6; Deuteronomy 33:15 is not infinite hills, especially they had a beginning when they were created. Olam things are still finite and must have a beginning, as anything that is from "everlasting to everlasting" presumes two everlastings, one everlasting must have begun where a previous everlasting ended. 

There would technically be no 'Heavenly Father of earth' when there was no earth, nor heaven, nor fathered-spirits. He became that thing once those other things existed, and so a progression to the present version of godhood, even if one only means it in terms of his dominion. A once non-Creator became a Creator. Just as Yhwh became the God of Israel only after Israel existed and was allotted to him by his Father (Deut 32). What was God doing for a majority of "infinity" before he Created anything? If nothing, what changed? How would this change not be described as becoming more than He was? I don't expect you can coherently answer without demonstrating exactly why you're not equipped to say whether anyone else's answer is a "mistake", alone a damnable mistake. I thought we got damned for not believing in God, not for believing too much.

Edited January 5 by Pyreaux

[InCognitus]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:33 AM, theplains said:

I can see that believers will enter into the rest of Christ.  

“And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of 
the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10).

“His rest” is a reference to Christ’s rest, not a rest provided by or in Joseph Smith.

Of course it’s not a "rest" provided by or in Joseph Smith.  Nobody is saying that except you.

“His rest” (in Isaiah 11:10) refers to the "rest" that the person spoken of in the verse will receive as provided by Christ.  “His rest” will be “glorious” in Christ.

On 1/3/2024 at 11:33 AM, theplains said:

This is what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans 15:8-12.  It is also taught in other places; 
some of which you quoted in your last reply. 

“And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed 
not?” (Hebrews 3:18). “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering 
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it” (Hebrews 4:1). “For he that is 
entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his” 
(Hebrews 4:10).

Yes, the "rest" is provided by Christ, and for some (like those described in Doctrine and Covenants 101:31 as quoted in my last post) that "rest" in Christ will be “glorious”.

On 1/3/2024 at 11:33 AM, theplains said:

One of the most clear explanations of how Latter-day Saints interpret Doctrine and Covenants 
113 is found in a 2015 seminary manual.  It's called "Old Testament Study Guide for Home-Study 
Seminary Students".  The rod and the root are both taught to be Joseph Smith.

That manual says essentially the same thing as the manual link I posted in my prior post.  So I'm not sure what your point is.

On 1/3/2024 at 11:33 AM, theplains said:

But based on Isaiah 11:1-5,10; Romans 15:8-12; and Revelation Revelation 22:16, I would say 
they all paint a picture of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith.

The Branch of Isaiah 11:1 is Christ (also alluded to in Jeremiah 33:14-16).

“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of 
his roots”.

Doctrine and Covenants 113:1-2 also says that Christ is identified in Isaiah 11, and the lesson material points that out too.  And the lesson I posted also acknowledges that Christ is the root and offspring of David (Revelation 22:16), so none of what you bring up above changes anything really.

On 1/3/2024 at 11:33 AM, theplains said:

I believe Joseph Smith, while he may have been sincere, did not endure to the end and he
failed to enter Christ’s rest.

I'm sure you do.  But, it seems to me that Joseph Smith endured to the end well, even being willing to die as a martyr by returning to Carthage and submitting himself to the authorities, fully knowing he would die there.  He was faithful to his prophetic calling by the Lord unto the end.

On 1/3/2024 at 11:33 AM, theplains said:

The main reason: he led his followers to worship a different God; a
not from everlasting to everlasting God; but a man who he taught became a God and later 
went on to become the Heavenly Father of Earth.

Actually, Joseph Smith taught that God is from everlasting to everlasting (we believe that too):

 “By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them”  (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17)

 “Behold, and hearken unto the voice of him who has all power, who is from everlasting to everlasting, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 61:1)

 “O Lord God Almighty, hear us in these our petitions, and answer us from heaven, thy holy habitation, where thou sittest enthroned, with glory, honor, power, majesty, might, dominion, truth, justice, judgment, mercy, and an infinity of fulness, from everlasting to everlasting.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 109:77)

 We also discussed what the Bible means by "from everlasting to everlasting" several times previously (here 07/09/2022, here 07/25/2022, here 08/10/2022, here 10/30/2022, here 11/12/2022, here 11/16/2022, here 11/21/2022, here 11/27/2022, here 12/24/2022), and here 07/10/2023.  You simply interpret the Bible differently now than how that phrase was understood in Bible times.

As for your belief that Joseph Smith led his followers to worship a “different God”, I suppose you mean it is different than what modern Christians believe about God now, since beliefs about the biblical God have changed over time.  The modern belief in absolute monotheism is a recent development, and the relationship of God to his creation has been changed through the years.  So I understand why you might see it as “different” from your point of view.

Edited January 6 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 1/4/2024 at 3:38 AM, Pyreaux said:

What was God doing for a majority of "infinity" before he Created anything?

Considering I believe there is only one God and that he has never been been anything
less than God, my simple answer is "I don't know".

[theplains]

On 1/5/2024 at 5:44 PM, InCognitus said:

“His rest” (in Isaiah 11:10) refers to the "rest" that the person spoken of in the verse will receive as provided by Christ.  “His rest” will be “glorious” in Christ.

Actually no.  The person spoken of in the verse is Christ. Other qualifications of this 
person are found in verses 1-4.

"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out 
of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and 
understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear 
of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he 
shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his 
ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the 
meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the 
breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked". 

The "his" in "his rest" (in Isaiah 11:10) is a reference to Christ, not multiple people
resting in Christ.

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the 
people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious".

The root of Jesse is Christ, who would be an ensign to the people.  The Gentiles (plural) 
would seek this ensign and "his" rest (singular, Christ) would be glorious.  That is why 
I mentioned that the "his" in "his rest" is Christ.  It is "his rest" / "Christ's rest" that I
mentioned before in the several passages in Hebrews and Romans.

Regarding Doctrine and Covenants 101:31 ("And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to 
say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, 
and his rest shall be glorious").

Yes. In this case, the "his" in "his rest" is a reference to multiple people.
 

On 1/5/2024 at 5:44 PM, InCognitus said:

Actually, Joseph Smith taught that God is from everlasting to everlasting (we believe that too):

I've seen several references in Mormon scriptures about this (Mosiah 3:5; Moroni 7:22-23; 
D&C 20:17; 39:1; 61:1

In this context, I think the teaching is that Jesus/Heavenly Father are from everlasting to 
everlasting in the sense that they have always existed as spirits (gnolaum) in LDS theology but
then progressed into becoming Gods.  

That might explain why Joseph Smith switched to the word eternity in the King Follett Discourse.

"I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. 
What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open you ears and hear, all ye ends of the 
earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God 
in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. God himself 
was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!".

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for 
the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being 
of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We 
have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, 
and take away the veil, so that you may see."

In simple terms, he teaches God himself was once as we are now – just a man like Joseph  
Smith was when he gave the sermon. And Joseph was not a God.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Considering I believe there is only one God and that he has never been been anything
less than God, my simple answer is "I don't know".

But if you think Joseph is wrong and you know well enough to condemn him, God having never been less or changed, you believe he was forever backwards the God of nothing and no one, the Creator with no creation, the King with no subjects, the Lord with no land. Saying nothing, doing nothing, thinking nothing for he already knows everything. Truly unchanging, until what? The Bible actually gives up a lot of information of things existing and transpiring before Day One. Of a war, how a divine council of begotten gods made the Lord their King that day. It was him dawning his royal robe of light that was the light of creation before there was a sun on Day One, and he consulted with these gods on how to best mold an already existing world of water infested with wicked shades he cast down to it. Lots of history before Day One.