On Representation of the 3 Witnesses in the Media

[Hamilton Porter]

I have not seen any full account of the plates witnesses by anyone lampooning the faith or even trying to fairly give an account of the church. They could be fair about everything else.

1. Musical: Didn't mention the witnesses at all. Said Joseph claimed to keep the plates to himself.

2. Religion graphs YouTube series: Says witnesses all early founders of Mormonism. Said nothing about the witnesses affirming their testimonies even after leaving the faith.

3. There was another YouTube series that claimed that leaving the faith was implicit renegment. Also didn't mention the witnesses affirming their testimonies.

4. I could mention what Mike Winger (an evangelical Christian said), but it's not worth it.

Only JK Rowling on Twitter was somewhat fair, citing there's a debate over whether it was a mystical experience or actual.

Ann Taeves at UT Austin was intellectually honest to admit they were plates, although not ancient. She says JS consecrated them through a sacrament.

The witnesses are clearly something they had to dance around.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Dario_M]

Really great topic.

It's funny because a few months ago i asked this question in my church. I literaly asked: "hey churchmembers where are the golden plates right now on this verry moment?" And nobody of them really had an answer on my question. So i tryed it again (because i'm always really curious you know) and i asked: "are the Golden plates now somewhere in a museum or so?" And after that question one of the guys in my ward said to me that the golden plates went to heaven after Joseph Smith had read them all. The golden plates just lifted up to the heavens. 🤔

Well.. i may be a Mormon now, baptized received the holy ghost and received the Aaronic Priesthood. But you would never hear me say that those plates have really do exist for real. Or that those plates have lifted up to the heavens. I would never claim that as the real and only TRUTH. Because i just don't know. I wasn't there on that moment.

And where are those plates right now? If they really did exist they still should be somewhere right? 

So i just don't know or the Golden plates really existed or not. Maybe they did (and still do) exist (somewhere). Maybe not. I simply just don't know what i need to think about that. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Dario_M

[Hamilton Porter]

Just now, Dario_M said:

Really great topic.

It's funny because a few months ago i asked this question in my church. I literaly asked: "hey churchmembers where are the golden plates right now on this verry moment?" And nobody of them really had an answer on my question. So i tryed it again (because i'm always really curious you know) and i asked: "are the Golden plates now somewhere in a museum or so?" And after that question one of the guys in my ward said to me that the golden plates went to heaven after Joseph Smith had read them all. The golden plates just fyed up to the heavans. 🤔

Well.. i may be a Mormon now, baptized received the hole ghost and received the Aaronic Priesthood. But you would never hear me say that those plates have really do exist for real. Or that those plates have flyed up to the heavans. I would never claim that as the real and only TRUTH. Because i just don't know. I wasn't there on that moment.

And where are those plates right now? If they really did exist they still should be somewhere right? 

So i just don't know or the Golden plates really existed or not. Maybe they did (and still do) exist (somewhere). Maybe not. I simply just don't know what i need to think about that. 

He gave them back to Moroni.

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, Hamilton Porter said:

He gave them back to Moroni.

Ooh really? Btw i had edit my spell mistakes in my post. 😊😇

Do you also know what Moroni did with those plates?? 

[Hamilton Porter]

7 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Ooh really? Btw i had edit my spell mistakes in my post. 😊😇

Do you also know what Moroni did with those plates?? 

We don't unfortunately.

[Dario_M]

7 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

We don't unfortunately.

That's to bad. If those plates where in a museum i would believed the whole storie. Now i don't really know what i need to think about it. 

Well..it is what it is. ✝️

[Dario_M]

6 minutes ago, Henry said:

Dude🤣 I gotta admit! You are slick. You got all these Mormons believing you are actually a member of the church. I can't be the only one that realizes the game you're playing. But congrats! Personally I think you're Ahab.

 

Look at the last page. There you can find out that i'm really a member of the LDS church. And that i just received my Aaronic priesthood. I have made a photo. With my first name second name and last name. 

Btw... i don't really like it that you accuse me of being a fake Mormon. Keep those comments to yourself will you? 

[Dario_M]

11 minutes ago, Henry said:

No! You are not a Mormon! You are an American pretending to be from another country. It's so obvious I can't believe I'm the first person to point it out. You pretending to be from another country by writing in some weird broken English isn't convincing at all, you suck at it. You're pretending to be Mormon so you can bash the church. 

I have reported you. I'm done for today. Have a nice day you all. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Dario_M

[Hamilton Porter]

Go away, smart alleck. You gotta have more evidence before accusing someone like that.

1 hour ago, Henry said:

Oh no!!! An American pretending to be someone he's not reported me to the moderators, what shall I do! You might have just about everyone here fooled, but you can't fool me. 

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Henry said:

Dude🤣 I gotta admit! You are slick. You got all these Mormons believing you are actually a member of the church. I can't be the only one that realizes the game you're playing. But congrats! Personally I think you're Ahab.

I think you're wrong bud. But understand the need to find which of us is Ahab. I seriously think Ahab needed forgiveness. I guess I didn't see what others saw. Wait, what if you're Ahab! You're a new member, so how do you know about Ahab? Or maybe you've been reading a lot of posts before about it, but it's unlikely IMO. 

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

He gave them back to Moroni.

Oh yea you bet.  So convenient. And I have a bridge to sell to you.

[Tacenda]

Just now, Henry said:

He might not be Ahab, but he's definitely not who he says he is. The way he writes his broken English isn't convincing at all. And the fact you guys can't see he's playing you is comical.  

Hang around and maybe you'll see for your self.  Trolls don't post like he does in favor of the church, for crying out loud. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Henry said:

Oh no!!! An American pretending to be someone he's not reported me to the moderators, what shall I do! You might have just about everyone here fooled, but you can't fool me. 

It’s humorous when a sock puppet with eight posts accuses someone else of not being who they say they are. 

[Hamilton Porter]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Oh yea you bet.  So convenient. And I have a bridge to sell to you.

Keep dancing!

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I have not seen any full account of the plates witnesses by anyone lampooning the faith or even trying to fairly give an account of the church. They could be fair about everything else.

1. Musical: Didn't mention the witnesses at all. Said Joseph claimed to keep the plates to himself.

2. Religion graphs YouTube series: Says witnesses all early founders of Mormonism. Said nothing about the witnesses affirming their testimonies even after leaving the faith.

3. There was another YouTube series that claimed that leaving the faith was implicit denial. Also didn't mention the witnesses affirming their testimonies.

4. I could mention what Mike Winger (an evangelical Christian said), but it's not worth it.

Only JK Rowling on Twitter was somewhat fair, citing there's a debate over whether it was a mystical experience or actual.

Ann Taeves at UT Austin was intellectually honest to admit they were plates, although not ancient. She says JS consecrated them through a sacrament.

The witnesses are clearly something they had to dance around.

I think the witnesses are the best evidence for Mormonism, but they are still problematic. Joseph was a practiced con artist (obviously in my opinion). He looked in a rock to find peoples lost objects. He convinced people he could see treasure buried in the earth. Treasure that magically sunk deeper whenever they dug and got close. That such a man could convince 11 people (that viewed him as Gods prophet) that they saw something? Not particularly surprising. These people were not skeptics. They believed in and practiced folk magic. 
 

Additionally the witness statements were ghost written? Who wrote the actual statements in the Book of Mormon? Where are the first person contemporaneous records from each witness. Who cross examined them? Did they each tell the same story or were there differences? 
 

For claims as grand as those put forward by Joseph Smith’s, the witness testimony is insufficient by far. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Tacenda]

35 minutes ago, Henry said:

You actually believe he's posting in favor of the church 🤔? You're being played. 

At the very first I wondered what you're accusing him of. But after so long, I think it's just that he's a new member and doesn't know all the details or history. How many posts of his have you read? All of them, like myself? Then you can plead your case more stoutly, but until then I'll just go by my gut. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Tacenda

[Hamilton Porter]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think the witnesses are the best evidence for Mormonism, but they are still problematic. Joseph was a practiced con artist (obviously in my opinion). He looked in a rock to find peoples lost objects. He convinced people he could see treasure buried in the earth. Treasure that magically sunk deeper whenever they dug and got close.

Those things are all part of the culture at that time. Parley P. Pratt could look into seer stones and see things too. 

Weird things are evidence for something supernatural going on, not against. That's only problematic to provincial white people.

9 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Additionally the witness statements were ghost written? Who wrote the actual statements in the Book of Mormon? Where are the first person contemporaneous records from each witness. Who cross examined them? Did they each tell the same story or were there differences? 

That's really not relevant because the witnesses are on record for affirming what they saw, regardless of circumstance.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

We don't unfortunately.

Of course not.  Really, there were no gold plates. It is a total fabrication.  A lie.

[Hamilton Porter]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

Of course not.  Really, there were no gold plates. It is a total fabrication.  A lie.

Keep dancing.

[Teancum]

24 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Keep dancing!

Live your life believing a lie. No problem for me.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Of course not.  Really, there were no gold plates. It is a total fabrication.  A lie.

There were plates, just don't know if they were real, I wonder if Joseph just needed something to back up what he believed. 

[Nevo]

This reminds me of a pretty funny exchange I recently saw on YouTube.

Bart Ehrman and Justin Bass are discussing Bass's assertions of "bedrock evidence" for Jesus' resurrection and the topic of witnesses comes up. Bass has forgotten (or never knew) about the Book of Mormon witnesses. From around the 12 minute mark:

Interestingly, Mormonism gets brought up quite a few times in this debate.

[Hamilton Porter]

LOL wow. Conservative Christians are ignorant dufuses.

Muhammad is on more solid footing than the New Testament. Good thing we have Joseph Smith to back up the resurrection.

Thanks for sharing, that was terribly embarrassing but entertaining.

Kudos to Bart Ehrman for representing the witnesses correctly.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[CA Steve]

That video was great but brutal.

And I think the question about Mary was especially relevant to how we should view the Mormon witnesses.

 

[Hamilton Porter]

4 hours ago, Nevo said:

This reminds me of a pretty funny exchange I recently saw on YouTube.

Bart Ehrman and Justin Bass are discussing Bass's assertions of "bedrock evidence" for Jesus' resurrection and the topic of witnesses comes up. Bass has forgotten (or never knew) about the Book of Mormon witnesses. From around the 12 minute mark:

Interestingly, Mormonism gets brought up quite a few times in this debate.

Also, that Christian dufus botched it again, saying the witnesses left Mormonism.

Good job, Bart Ehrman.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Hamilton Porter