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A Remarkable Passage in Alma 37


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People have to know what a parallelism is. Otherwise, it just sound verbose like a senile grandpa if you repeat like that.

The BOM uses the entire pallet of Hebrew literary techniques (chiasmus, //, wordplay, Seidel's law, leitwort) that I think more people should know about.

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3 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

People have to know what a parallelism is. Otherwise, it just sound verbose like a senile grandpa if you repeat like that.

The BOM uses the entire pallet of Hebrew literary techniques (chiasmus, //, wordplay, Seidel's law, leitwort) that I think more people should know about.

But-but, Joseph probably just copied the King James Bible (even when he supposedly directly quoted the KJV Isaiah, the KJV's literary patterns are obscured, while the BoM Isaiah's literary forms appear to be corrected... And about a hundred years before these literary forms were even widely recognized in the Bible).

Edited by Pyreaux
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4 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

People have to know what a parallelism is. Otherwise, it just sound verbose like a senile grandpa if you repeat like that.

The BOM uses the entire pallet of Hebrew literary techniques (chiasmus, //, wordplay, Seidel's law, leitwort) that I think more people should know about.

Quote

I said above : In this remarkable passage, Alma, like all good teachers, repeats this image three times, and like a good Nephite teacher, he uses a parallelism to increase the impact.

Alma employs the alternate parallel form, one of the most common and effective forms of poetic parallelism in the Book of Mormon. It appears hundreds of times. An alternate consists of two or more lines that are repeated in parallel order. The simple alternate form is outlined ABAB. Extended alternates are outlined ABCABC, etc…

…I am so grateful for the Book of Mormon and the beautiful intricacies that await in its pages for us to discover. (Thanks to Donald Parry for his marvelous edition of the Book of Mormon: Poetic Parallelism in the Book of Mormon: The Complete Text Reformatted. Maxwell Institute, 2007).

While I indeed am a senile grandpa, I have started many discussions on parallelisms here. Rather than just carp, what do you think of the essay?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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How nice. A part of the book of Mormon. The storie of Alma. I have read the whole book of Mormon. So i know the stories of all those people. Nephei. Moroni. Jacob. Mormon. Haleman. Etc. That is the book of Mormon.

They where apostles right?? 

Edited by Dario_M
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7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

How nice. A part of the book of Mormon. The storie of Alma. I have read the whole book of Mormon. So i know the stories of all those people. Nephei. Moroni. Jacob. Mormon. Haleman. Etc. That is the book of Mormon.

They where apostles right?? 

Prophets. Apostles are Prophets, a group of governing prophets.

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22 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

While I indeed am a senile grandpa, I have started many discussions on parallelisms here. Rather than just carp, what do you think of the essay?

So demystifying like this, so much easier to see that its a very meaningful pattern rather than a random tangent once you unpack it from its once run-on sentence Rigdon scribed. Discovering the true lost work of an inspired master.

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1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

So demystifying like this, so much easier to see that its a very meaningful pattern rather than a random tangent once you unpack it from its once run-on sentence Rigdon scribed. Discovering the true lost work of an inspired master.

 

Edited by Hamilton Porter
Wrong thread.
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13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

How nice. A part of the book of Mormon. The storie of Alma. I have read the whole book of Mormon. So i know the stories of all those people. Nephei. Moroni. Jacob. Mormon. Haleman. Etc. That is the book of Mormon.

They where apostles right?? 

Have you heard of poetic parallelism?

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5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

So demystifying like this, so much easier to see that its a very meaningful pattern rather than a random tangent once you unpack it from its once run-on sentence Rigdon scribed. Discovering the true lost work of an inspired master.

I believe parallelisms provide insights into the educated Nephite mind. 

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2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I believe parallelisms provide insights into the educated Nephite mind. 

I'm daunted at the idea of composing something like this myself. It would take a long time, I assume Alma wrote it in little time. I'm sure letter composing was a more standard and very serious business in such times. I understand the pattern made it easier to memorize and recite.

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15 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Prophets. Apostles are Prophets, a group of governing prophets.

Really is that so? How interesting. So they are basically the same. 

And what if i ask you what about Mr Holland? What is he then? What kind of fuction has he in our church. And can you maybe give me a list of people who have the same function as mr Holland.?? So that i can check their backgrounds and learn more about the work that those man do. And their hystorie. Just because i'm curious. And just because i wanna learn something today. 

Thank you. 🙏

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9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you heard of poetic parallelism?

Yes i do know what you are talking about. It's poezie about the stuff in the bible, and offcourse The book of Mormon. And also other type of scriptures and phrases. 

May i tell you a nice example of a poetic parallellism?? Here it comes: 

"Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name,
thy kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as well as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread
and forgive us our debts,
as we also forgive our debtors,
and do not bring us into trial,
but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory for ever.
Ame."

Here this whas a nice poetic parralelism

Edited by Dario_M
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On 4/12/2023 at 12:21 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Alma uses the Liahona as an object lesson to teach Helaman how to obtain eternal life through following the words of Christ. Through analogy, Alma compares the Liahona (a temporal compass provided by God to Lehi in the wilderness) with the Words of Christ (a spiritual guide)...

I completely agree with Alma about the role and power of "the words of Christ."

Given that Alma was speaking several decades before the birth of Christ, what "words of Christ" was he referring to? 

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4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Really is that so? How interesting. So they are basically the same. 

And what if i ask you what about Mr Holland? What is he then? What kind of fuction has he in our church. And can you maybe give me a list of people who have the same function as mr Holland.?? So that i can check their backgrounds and learn more about the work that those man do. And their hystorie. Just because i'm curious. And just because i wanna learn something today. 

Thank you. 🙏

Holland is an Apostle in the church. The church sustains fifteen men as prophets. Nelson, is called "The Prophet", he calls two councilors who leave the Quorum of Twelve to become the First Presidency, they'll call more to the Twelve as needed to maintain their number of twelve. 

The keys given to the new apostle include the authority to preach the gospel in all the world and to seal ordinances on earth that will be sealed eternally, today are commissioned to open the nations of the world to the preaching of the gospel (D&C 107:35). By assignment from the First Presidency, members of the Twelve meet with heads of state to obtain official permission for the Church to teach the gospel consistent with the laws of those countries.

As for their prophethood, they have authority to receive revelation for their assignments, which include supervising the Seventy, overseeing the stakes, and training leaders (D&C 107:33). Only the President of the Church, however, has the right and authority to receive revelation for the whole Church (D&C 28:2-3). 

A list along with short facts about them can be seen here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2018/05/our-prophets-and-apostles-today?lang=eng

 

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2 hours ago, manol said:

I completely agree with Alma about the role and power of "the words of Christ."

Given that Alma was speaking several decades before the birth of Christ, what "words of Christ" was he referring to? 

Perhaps these from Alma 36…among others…

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.
24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
25 Yea, and now behold, O my son, the Lord doth give me exceedingly great joy in the fruit of my labors;
26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.
27 And I have been supported under trials and troubles of every kind, yea, and in all manner of afflictions; yea, God has delivered me from prison, and from bonds, and from death; yea, and I do put my trust in him, and he will still deliver me.
28 And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory; yea, and I will praise him forever, for he has brought our fathers out of Egypt, and he has swallowed up the Egyptians in the Red Sea; and he led them by his power into the promised land; yea, and he has delivered them out of bondage and captivity from time to time.
29 Yea, and he has also brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem; and he has also, by his everlasting power, delivered them out of bondage and captivity, from time to time even down to the present day; and I have always retained in remembrance their captivity; yea, and ye also ought to retain in remembrance, as I have done, their captivity.
30 But behold, my son, this is not all; for ye ought to know as I do know, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; and ye ought to know also, that inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence. Now this is according to his word.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps these from Alma 36…among others…

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.
24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
25 Yea, and now behold, O my son, the Lord doth give me exceedingly great joy in the fruit of my labors;
26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.
27 And I have been supported under trials and troubles of every kind, yea, and in all manner of afflictions; yea, God has delivered me from prison, and from bonds, and from death; yea, and I do put my trust in him, and he will still deliver me.
28 And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory; yea, and I will praise him forever, for he has brought our fathers out of Egypt, and he has swallowed up the Egyptians in the Red Sea; and he led them by his power into the promised land; yea, and he has delivered them out of bondage and captivity from time to time.
29 Yea, and he has also brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem; and he has also, by his everlasting power, delivered them out of bondage and captivity, from time to time even down to the present day; and I have always retained in remembrance their captivity; yea, and ye also ought to retain in remembrance, as I have done, their captivity.
30 But behold, my son, this is not all; for ye ought to know as I do know, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; and ye ought to know also, that inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence. Now this is according to his word.

To me the phrase "the words of Christ" means "the words of teaching and instruction spoken by Jesus Christ", or something similar, as imo THAT is what we need to heed in order to reach "eternal life" or "a far better land of promise beyond this vale of sorrow", to use Alma's parallel with the Liahona.  (I could be mistaken about this; maybe the phrase "the words of Christ" means something else?) 

I'm NOT disputing that Alma knew what he was talking about when he referred "the words of Christ", and presumably his son Helaman also knew what Alma was talking about... my guess is, probably the same things Christ taught during his earthly ministry, which had not yet occurred.  Which brings me back to my question:

Given that Alma was speaking several decades before the birth of Christ, what "words of Christ" was he referring to?

 

 

Edited by manol
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Safe assumption that the divine name is being translated into English as "Jesus Christ", because YHWH is Jesus Christ, and it's not that anyone is actually speaking that name in English.

"Behold, I am Jesus Christ." (Ether 3:14)

Edited by Pyreaux
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6 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

Do you exclude the words of the Pre-Mortal Jesus Christ recorded on the  Brass plates?

No.  I thought the Brass Plates were the record that Laban had, rather than the Jaredite record?  I could easily be mistaken. 

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Safe assumption that the divine name is being translated into English as "Jesus Christ", because YHWH is Jesus Christ, and it's not that anyone is actually speaking that name in English.

"Behold, I am Jesus Christ." (Ether 3:14)

I think the Brother of Jared's encounter with Christ is the answer!!

Just for the record, here is the entirety of Ether 3:14: 

"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.  Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."  (emphasis mine)

Imo Verses 17 and 18 clearly imply that the Brother of Jared RECEIVED and RECORDED the same teachings that Christ delivered to the Nephites a hundred or so years after Alma's instructions to his son Helaman, and THAT could very well have been how they had access to "the words of Christ" well before Christ was born:

"And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he bshowed himself unto the Nephites.  And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him." (emphasis mine)

So I suspect Alma and Helaman had access to a much more complete set of "the words of Christ" than what we see in Moroni's abridged description in Verse 14.

Thanks!

 

Edited by manol
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11 hours ago, manol said:

To me the phrase "the words of Christ" means "the words of teaching and instruction spoken by Jesus Christ", or something similar, as imo THAT is what we need to heed in order to reach "eternal life" or "a far better land of promise beyond this vale of sorrow", to use Alma's parallel with the Liahona.  (I could be mistaken about this; maybe the phrase "the words of Christ" means something else?) 

I'm NOT disputing that Alma knew what he was talking about when he referred "the words of Christ", and presumably his son Helaman also knew what Alma was talking about... my guess is, probably the same things Christ taught during his earthly ministry, which had not yet occurred.  Which brings me back to my question:

Given that Alma was speaking several decades before the birth of Christ, what "words of Christ" was he referring to?

I’m not sure I understand your question. Do you want specific quotes? If so, we will have to go through all the revealed words spoken by the Nephite prophets who came before him, all the words his father taught him before and after his rebellion, all the words he heard during his miraculous conversion, all the discussions he had with his friends among the sins of Mosiah, all the words he read in their scriptures, all the revealed sermons he and Amulek gave during their missionary journeys, all the revelations he received, and much more. In a word, though, the Lord’s word to him that he preached was, “Repent.” 

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19 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Holland is an Apostle in the church. The church sustains fifteen men as prophets. Nelson, is called "The Prophet", he calls two councilors who leave the Quorum of Twelve to become the First Presidency, they'll call more to the Twelve as needed to maintain their number of twelve. 

The keys given to the new apostle include the authority to preach the gospel in all the world and to seal ordinances on earth that will be sealed eternally, today are commissioned to open the nations of the world to the preaching of the gospel (D&C 107:35). By assignment from the First Presidency, members of the Twelve meet with heads of state to obtain official permission for the Church to teach the gospel consistent with the laws of those countries.

As for their prophethood, they have authority to receive revelation for their assignments, which include supervising the Seventy, overseeing the stakes, and training leaders (D&C 107:33). Only the President of the Church, however, has the right and authority to receive revelation for the whole Church (D&C 28:2-3). 

A list along with short facts about them can be seen here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2018/05/our-prophets-and-apostles-today?lang=eng

 

Aawh okay.  Nelson and Holland are the same type of people?? Got it. 

Thank you so much for your list you have send me. I will dive in it. 

God bless. ✝️

 

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