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For Your Viewing Pleasure, A Debate On the Trinity


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There are 535 persons in one congress.

Semantic confusion.

Debate over.

But congress does not think and act as one.

We don't want THAT aspect of congress. ;)

No, this is not a political comment ;)

 

 

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17 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't watch it, but I'll point out for y'all that it's a debate with Protestantism.

Are there differences between Catholics on that?

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Oh yeah 

Nicea

Never mind

Them Protestants didn't know how to throw out Catholic concepts.

A Restoration WAS required!  There's your apostasy right there!  

That word consubstantiality.

Ok no more from me on this.

Edited by mfbukowski
Stupidity ;)
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4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

This made me laugh for some reason!   (i.e. there are already problems going into this since it's a debate with Protestantism :))  But I know where you're coming from on this.

But I had to stick my nose into it and now we'll have a 20 pager on nothing new.  Sorry  :(;)

 

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On this site and other places, I've encountered Latter-day Saints who seem to be confusing the Trinity with Sabellianism/Modalism (a cluster of teachings that were deemed heretical in the 3rd-4th centuries). I think that maybe this is a bit like LDS encountering people who think the Book of Mormon is the "Mormon's Bible."  

So I googled Latter-day Saints and Sabellianism, and these popped up:

Modalism - MormonWiki.org

Modalism | Theopedia

What do you think?

If you want a solid foundation from which to discuss the Trinity, two chapters in this classic work will get you started. They are written for non-experts, and are very Catholic (the Trinity is not merely being supported from the Bible), but they are excellent. This book is now in the public domain:

2015.58569.Theology-And-Sanity.pdf (archive.org)

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1 hour ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

On this site and other places, I've encountered Latter-day Saints who seem to be confusing the Trinity with Sabellianism/Modalism (a cluster of teachings that were deemed heretical in the 3rd-4th centuries). I think that maybe this is a bit like LDS encountering people who think the Book of Mormon is the "Mormon's Bible."  

So I googled Latter-day Saints and Sabellianism, and these popped up:

Modalism - MormonWiki.org

Modalism | Theopedia

What do you think?

If you want a solid foundation from which to discuss the Trinity, two chapters in this classic work will get you started. They are written for non-experts, and are very Catholic (the Trinity is not merely being supported from the Bible), but they are excellent. This book is now in the public domain:

2015.58569.Theology-And-Sanity.pdf (archive.org)

Hey thanks- I will check these out.

Oh by the way, where can I find info on receiving an answer from God regarding prayers to know one's vocation as it relates to what we would call a prompting or personal revelation?

At age 14 I was thinking about the priesthood and praying intensely to know if I should start high school in a seminary program- our 8th grade class and my Sodality took a bus up to St. Anthony's seminary in Santa Barbara and spent a weekend taking tours and hearing explanations of their program- High School freshmen to college graduate, with the intent to become a Priest.   

I was praying intensely and got what I was sure was a clear clear "message" from God that I should BOTH become a priest AND get married.

Not possible in the Roman Rite, and I was too dumb at 14 to take that one on!  Didn't even know that was at least a possibility.

Never made sense to me until I found LDS.   I was married and of course received the priesthood and eventually was ordained an LDS bishop. ;)     Got to be both a real live pastor and priest and a married man and Dad!    Jackpot!  :)

 

But that is a LOOOOONGER story.

So how does that fit into praying for answers from God and receiving them?   But personal revelation is out, right?

 

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2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh by the way, where can I find info on receiving an answer from God regarding prayers to know one's vocation as it relates to what we would call a prompting or personal revelation?

I just googled "how do I know I have a vocation" so that I could quote something to you rather than give my own thoughts. Here's the hit from the Archdiocese of Newark:

Quote

A question that young people ask us very frequently: "But how do I know that God is calling me to religious life?" Well the good news is: this is something only YOU can know. No one else can ever do a discernment in your place telling you: "Here is what you should do".

God does speak to our hearts as He has spoken to so many young men and women before us. He does call, and He calls in a way that you, and only you, can understand. His call is like the whisper of a friend. In order for us to hear the whisper of a friend, we need to first have a friendship with that person, then we need to be close to the other, in order to be able to hear his whisper and lastly, in order to also understand the deep meaning of his whisper, not only do we need to stand close to that person, but our hearts need to be close to that person as well. I need to know him well, to understand the deep meaning of what he is saying.

That's pretty much how I would have answered. It is a "prompting" and a "personal revelation."

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So how does that fit into praying for answers from God and receiving them?   But personal revelation is out, right?

I guess I don't quite understand the question. Personal revelation is not out. Catholics pray to understand God's will all the time.

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7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I just googled "how do I know I have a vocation" so that I could quote something to you rather than give my own thoughts. Here's the hit from the Archdiocese of Newark:

That's pretty much how I would have answered. It is a "prompting" and a "personal revelation."

I guess I don't quite understand the question. Personal revelation is not out. Catholics pray to understand God's will all the time.

Aha!

I don't recall that from my infant Catholic days.

That leads to more-   Let me find the link.....

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On 9/14/2022 at 12:25 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't watch it, but I'll point out for y'all that it's a debate with Protestantism.

I am almost always skeptical of binarism when it comes to religious, doctrinal or theological debates. Sure, you might have a debate about it with some Protestants. Some Protestants debate it with other Protestants. Protestants may debate with other Protestants about the value of trying to proof-text the trinity in the Bible. Other Protestants are not specifically trinitarian at all, like some Pentecostals and Apostolic churches. Others may be trinitarian, but don't feel strongly enough about it to put it in their statements of faith. Others believe it is a divisive doctrine that has no bearing on salvation at all. In these days, there is a great wideness and diversity within Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, and a growing diversity within the LDS church (as evidenced on this forum) as well. Some of us like to talk about a spectrum of this or that instead of a binarism, but are stuck in thinking of the differences within Christianity as binary.

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1 minute ago, Navidad said:

I am almost always skeptical of binarism when it comes to religious, doctrinal or theological debates. Sure, you might have a debate about it with some Protestants. Some Protestants debate it with other Protestants. Protestants may debate with other Protestants about the value of trying to proof-text the trinity in the Bible. Other Protestants are not specifically trinitarian at all, like some Pentecostals and Apostolic churches. Others may be trinitarian, but don't feel strongly enough about it to put it in their statements of faith. Others believe it is a divisive doctrine that has no bearing on salvation at all. In these days, there is a great wideness and diversity within Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, and a growing diversity within the LDS church (as evidenced on this forum) as well. Some of us like to talk about a spectrum of this or that instead of a binarism, but are stuck in thinking of the differences within Christianity as binary.

So then they pray to Jesus or see Jesus as God- pure and simple?

I have thought about that- I pray and KNOW that there is A CONSCIOUSNESS that responds, but it doesn't seem to be a party line....   :)

Life would be theologically much simpler for explaining MY personal beliefs in a HUMAN EMBODIED God in one person, and easier to communicate with Protestants with avoiding the whole antropomorphism argument-  the idea that God the father has a HUMAN body is just crazy to so many in the world.  I mean if one person of the "Trinity" is embodied seems ok but TWO??   God the FAther embodied??   No that is too much for most of humanity.

Platonism still reigns supreme in traditional Christianity, and that's why it needed a restoration imo.    BUT that is another question....

So how do you guys handle that?   Could Father be embodied and NOT some cloud of "substance" sharing "natures" with the embodied and resurrected  person of the Trinity, Jesus?

It makes perfect sense really but if one is speaking to others the concept is SO foreign you immediately become a wacko!   God could not possibly be embodied!  Somehow Jesus is resurrected but THAT's ok...?

And so you get PanENtheism "God's materiality is the universe itself" to justify a whole metaphysics instead of good old illogical Pantheism..."God IS the Universe"... which I see EVERYWHERE lately, a non-atheist atheism.   (Of course I live in the state of Disneyland sometimes called California) 

Something good happens: "Thanks, Universe!"

Something bad happens:  "Well, the Universe just has to do it's own thing....your plan was not in the works"

What's that little voice you know as conscience- "Well it's the unverse speaking to you!"

That's hip California theology.... 🤨

But suggest it's an EMBODIED PERSONAL HUMAN God and they start walking fast.....  throw in "Kolob" and they start running......   

But I hear "Thank you Jesus" a lot more than  "Thanks, Father God".

Of course then they just figure you're just a low-intelligence crackpot, but they don't run!!  ;)  

:)

 

 

 

 

all this IMO of course...

 

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On 9/14/2022 at 12:42 PM, mfbukowski said:

There are 535 persons in one congress.

Semantic confusion.

Debate over.

But congress does not think and act as one.

We don't want THAT aspect of congress. ;)

No, this is not a political comment ;)

 

 

Anakin Skywalker would prefer a congress that thinks and acts as one.  Or is made to.

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