Rain Posted July 14, 2022 Posted July 14, 2022 The scriptures for Come Follow Me talk about Huldah the prophetess. In Come Follow Me they point out a verse of part of what she says, but they don't specify a verse showing who is talking and don't say anything about her. What would you maybe talk about/teach about her if you were teaching this week? 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 14, 2022 Posted July 14, 2022 16 minutes ago, Rain said: The scriptures for Come Follow Me talk about Huldah the prophetess. In Come Follow Me they point out a verse of part of what she says, but they don't specify a verse showing who is talking and don't say anything about her. What would you maybe talk about/teach about her if you were teaching this week? I might be tempted to discuss one of the many times when my mother acted as prophetess to us her family. I find it interesting that, according to Rabbinic tradition, Hezekiah may have thought she would treat his request more mercifully than her cousin Jeremiah would. 2
filovirus Posted July 14, 2022 Posted July 14, 2022 6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I might be tempted to discuss one of the many times when my mother acted as prophetess to us her family. I find it interesting that, according to Rabbinic tradition, Hezekiah may have thought she would treat his request more mercifully than her cousin Jeremiah would. Do you mean Josiah? Hezekiah was about ~50 years prior. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 14, 2022 Posted July 14, 2022 1 minute ago, filovirus said: Do you mean Josiah? Hezekiah was about ~50 years prior. Yes!
CV75 Posted July 14, 2022 Posted July 14, 2022 6 hours ago, Rain said: The scriptures for Come Follow Me talk about Huldah the prophetess. In Come Follow Me they point out a verse of part of what she says, but they don't specify a verse showing who is talking and don't say anything about her. What would you maybe talk about/teach about her if you were teaching this week? Maybe refer to this resource: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/prophetess?lang=eng ; compare the verses 2 Kings 22:14-20 and 2 Chronicles 34: 23-28; go over anything in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huldah that would address the spiritual learning needs of the class members; the sources of the books of Kings and Chronicles, about which I thought I read an article in CFM or Liahona but cannot locate the links now. 1
Rain Posted July 14, 2022 Author Posted July 14, 2022 26 minutes ago, CV75 said: Maybe refer to this resource: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/prophetess?lang=eng ; compare the verses 2 Kings 22:14-20 and 2 Chronicles 34: 23-28; go over anything in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huldah that would address the spiritual learning needs of the class members; the sources of the books of Kings and Chronicles, about which I thought I read an article in CFM or Liahona but cannot locate the links now. Thanks! Especially good since we skip Chronicles too.
Kevin Christensen Posted July 14, 2022 Posted July 14, 2022 Julie Smith wrote a useful essay on Huldah in A Dream, a Rock, and a Pillar of Fire from the Maxwell Institute in 2017. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=3&article=1001&context=mi&type=additional I reviewed the volume for Interpreter a while back. https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/light-and-perspective-essays-from-the-mormon-theology-seminar-on-1-nephi-1-and-jacob-7/ FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 4
Rain Posted July 16, 2022 Author Posted July 16, 2022 On 7/14/2022 at 6:41 AM, CV75 said: Maybe refer to this resource: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/prophetess?lang=eng ; compare the verses 2 Kings 22:14-20 and 2 Chronicles 34: 23-28; go over anything in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huldah that would address the spiritual learning needs of the class members; the sources of the books of Kings and Chronicles, about which I thought I read an article in CFM or Liahona but cannot locate the links now. What are you seeing different in the Kings verses Chronicles versions? I'm not seeing any real difference. What am I missing?
CV75 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rain said: What are you seeing different in the Kings verses Chronicles versions? I'm not seeing any real difference. What am I missing? Not much, but it is said that the author of Chronicles used the books of the Kings as source material, so it is interesting to see the subtle difference in emphasis a) on the general narrative and b) these verses (particularly 2 Kings 22:15 and 19 vs. 2 Chronicles 34: 24 and 27): KINGS 15 ¶ And she said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me, 16 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the abook which the king of Judah hath read: 17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might aprovoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched. 18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the Lord, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard; 19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast ahumbled thyself before the Lord, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a bdesolation and a ccurse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the Lord. 20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in apeace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again. CHRONICLES 23 ¶ And she answered them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Tell ye the man that sent you to me, 24 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the acurses that are written in the bbook which they have read before the king of Judah: 25 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched. 26 And as for the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, so shall ye say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel concerning the words which thou hast heard; 27 Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the Lord. 28 Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again. Sources[edit] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Chronicles Much of the content of Chronicles is a repetition of material from other books of the Bible, from Genesis to Kings, and so the usual scholarly view is that these books, or an early version of them, provided the author with the bulk of his material. It is, however, possible that the situation was rather more complex, and that books such as Genesis and Samuel should be regarded as contemporary with Chronicles, drawing on much of the same material, rather than a source for it. Despite much discussion of this issue, no agreement has been reached.[18] Kings and 2 Chronicles[edit] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Kings The second Book of Chronicles covers much the same time-period as the books of Kings, but it ignores the northern Kingdom of Israel almost completely, David is given a major role in planning the Temple, Hezekiah is given a much more far-reaching program of reform, and Manasseh of Judah is given an opportunity to repent of his sins, apparently to account for his long reign.[30] It is usually assumed that the author of Chronicles used Kings as a source and emphasised different areas as he would have liked it to have been interpreted.[30] Anwyay, enjoy your class! PS: a personal observation: Lehi responded to the message of the destruction of Jerusalem by preaching repentance and preparing his heart for further instruction for the Lord to flee and eventually fulfil the prophecy in Genesis for Joseph to be “a fruitful bough… by a well; whose branches run over the wall…” and eventually begin teh record-keeping practice that resulted in the Book of Mormon (yet another way Joseph saved the other tribes as well as the Gentiles).… The book of the law was important to Josiah, and the similar book of Laban, presumably with many of the same contents, was important to Lehi for the same reasons. Edited July 17, 2022 by CV75 1
Rain Posted July 17, 2022 Author Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Not much, but it is said that the author of Chronicles used the books of the Kings as source material, so it is interesting to see the subtle difference in emphasis a) on the general narrative and b) these verses (particularly 2 Kings 22:15 and 19 vs. 2 Chronicles 34: 24 and 27): KINGS 15 ¶ And she said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me, 16 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the abook which the king of Judah hath read: 17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might aprovoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched. 18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the Lord, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard; 19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast ahumbled thyself before the Lord, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a bdesolation and a ccurse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the Lord. 20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in apeace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again. CHRONICLES 23 ¶ And she answered them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Tell ye the man that sent you to me, 24 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the acurses that are written in the bbook which they have read before the king of Judah: 25 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched. 26 And as for the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, so shall ye say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel concerning the words which thou hast heard; 27 Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the Lord. 28 Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again. Sources[edit] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Chronicles Much of the content of Chronicles is a repetition of material from other books of the Bible, from Genesis to Kings, and so the usual scholarly view is that these books, or an early version of them, provided the author with the bulk of his material. It is, however, possible that the situation was rather more complex, and that books such as Genesis and Samuel should be regarded as contemporary with Chronicles, drawing on much of the same material, rather than a source for it. Despite much discussion of this issue, no agreement has been reached.[18] Kings and 2 Chronicles[edit] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Kings The second Book of Chronicles covers much the same time-period as the books of Kings, but it ignores the northern Kingdom of Israel almost completely, David is given a major role in planning the Temple, Hezekiah is given a much more far-reaching program of reform, and Manasseh of Judah is given an opportunity to repent of his sins, apparently to account for his long reign.[30] It is usually assumed that the author of Chronicles used Kings as a source and emphasized different areas as he would have liked it to have been interpreted.[30] Anyway, enjoy your class! PS: a personal observation: Lehi responded to the message of the destruction of Jerusalem by preaching repentance and preparing his heart for further instruction for the Lord to flee and eventually fulfil the prophecy in Genesis for Joseph to be “a fruitful bough… by a well; whose branches run over the wall…” and eventually begin teh record-keeping practice that resulted in the Book of Mormon (yet another way Joseph saved the other tribes as well as the Gentiles).… The book of the law was important to Josiah, and the similar book of Laban, presumably with many of the same contents, was important to Lehi for the same reasons. I've been reading through 4 different versions of the bible so I can see some of the differences among other reasons such as getting context etc. For verses Kings 18 and Chronicles 26 The Jewish Study Bible and the Harper Collins Study bible are not different from Kings to Chronicles. The KJV obviously is from what you showed and so is the NKJV study bible. But I'm not sure it makes any discernable difference there. I'm trying to think if they have a different nuance, but I can't find one. This is the only spot in the passages where the bibles really differed from each other. With 16 and 24 the big difference to me is actually who read the book. In the Kings, Josiah reads the book. In Chronicles, one of his men read the book to him. It would be interesting to know for sure which happened. One of the study bibles, I don't remember which noted that it being read to him was more likely even though he was probably educated well enough to do it on his own. Now the words verses curses. That would be interesting to see why Chronicles emphasizes that (and it does in all of the 4 bibles I have). 19 and 27 - I can see difference in a couple of ways. 1. Chronicles is reemphasizing that Josiah was humble and that's why the Lord would be better with him. 2. The writer accidentally copied that line and repeated it instead of the curse line. That's all a little interesting, but I'm not sure it gives me anything more about Huldah. I really appreciate you looking into it more and giving me what you found though! 🙂 1
CV75 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 11 hours ago, Rain said: I've been reading through 4 different versions of the bible so I can see some of the differences among other reasons such as getting context etc. For verses Kings 18 and Chronicles 26 The Jewish Study Bible and the Harper Collins Study bible are not different from Kings to Chronicles. The KJV obviously is from what you showed and so is the NKJV study bible. But I'm not sure it makes any discernable difference there. I'm trying to think if they have a different nuance, but I can't find one. This is the only spot in the passages where the bibles really differed from each other. With 16 and 24 the big difference to me is actually who read the book. In the Kings, Josiah reads the book. In Chronicles, one of his men read the book to him. It would be interesting to know for sure which happened. One of the study bibles, I don't remember which noted that it being read to him was more likely even though he was probably educated well enough to do it on his own. Now the words verses curses. That would be interesting to see why Chronicles emphasizes that (and it does in all of the 4 bibles I have). 19 and 27 - I can see difference in a couple of ways. 1. Chronicles is reemphasizing that Josiah was humble and that's why the Lord would be better with him. 2. The writer accidentally copied that line and repeated it instead of the curse line. That's all a little interesting, but I'm not sure it gives me anything more about Huldah. I really appreciate you looking into it more and giving me what you found though! 🙂 Here's one faith-supportive, historical take on Huldah, and offers some insight as to why Josiah sent his personnel to her instead of Jeremiah: https://maryloudriedger2.wordpress.com/tag/huldah/ RE: the comparison between 19 and 27, perhaps the writer of Chronicles found it difficult to admit the Jews had become a desolation and a curse! 1
longview Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 11 hours ago, Rain said: With 16 and 24 the big difference to me is actually who read the book. In the Kings, Josiah reads the book. In Chronicles, one of his men read the book to him. It would be interesting to know for sure which happened. One of the study bibles, I don't remember which noted that it being read to him was more likely even though he was probably educated well enough to do it on his own. I would say it is very plausible that it was BOTH. I think it very likely that those who found the lost scripture did a careful reading and made comparisons with what they already had on hand. They may have determined what was on hand were corrupted by paganism of previous generations. Then they approached Josiah about the lost scripture. Which led to intensive months long seminars. Then Josiah with his court began implementing massive reforms of religious institutions. 1
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted July 19, 2022 Popular Post Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) On the topic of What Did King Josiah Reform?, see Margaret Barker on the topic, at BYU in 2003, and published in Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=18&article=1038&context=mi&type=additional The key line for me is her observation that "Josiah's changes concerned the high priests and were thus changes at the very heart of the temple." I think is also of interest that Jeremiah is called the year after the reform begins (see Jer 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 34:3), and specifically "against the kings of Judah" (Jer. 1:18), rather than "against the kings subsequent to the current perfect embodiment of all virtue." It was Josiah's reform, not Jeremiah's. Plus, if Barker is correct, that explains a lot about why Lehi's first discourse got him into such trouble (1 Nephi 1:19) and it becomes doubly interesting that Josiah destroyed the "tree of life" that had been in the temple (2 Kings 23:6, where "grove" should be "Asherah"), and that once off in the desert, safely away from Jerusalem, Lehi has a vision of that tree. Daniel Peterson's "Nephi and his Asherah" explains what is going on there. Back in 2013, Bill Hamblin and I offered different takes on whether Barker is correct about Josiah. https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/josiahs-reform-an-introduction/ A BYU Studies last fall took issue with Barker, but more via a sense of incredulity than by addressing any of her arguments or even giving a close reading of the Bible. I have a detailed response to Eliason slowly grinding through a peer review process at Interpreter. On the key differences between the accounts in Kings and Chronicles, see Barker again at the 2011 Temple Studies group: http://www.templestudiesgroup.com/Papers/2Jul11_TempleHiddenInKings.pdf FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited July 20, 2022 by Kevin Christensen correction 5
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