JAHS Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said: No God is not the bible but the bible is Gods word. john 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the was with God and the word was God. I’m sure there’s errors in the bible just like all things that men have their hands in. The bible is our guide for salvation, I’m not sure I always understand everything that I read but if one searches they will get answers. I don’t think we need a prophet on earth to speak to God for us. We are saved by grace and grace alone. That’s what the Bible teaches and what a beautiful gift from God. The Bible is a tool that teaches us to be careful what we buy into. How do you know the Bible is God's word?
Ranch2727 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is breathed out by God. And many others…. We are asked to test all things, books, prophets, teachings. Faith plays a big part, I have faith that the words in the Bible are breathed by God for us to follow. I guess when we die we will all find out the truth.
JAHS Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is breathed out by God. And many others…. We are asked to test all things, books, prophets, teachings. Faith plays a big part, I have faith that the words in the Bible are breathed by God for us to follow. I guess when we die we will all find out the truth. I like the second part of your answer best. Saying that the bible is the word of God because the bible says it is the word of god, is a kind of circular reasoning that I could equally use for the book of mormon. But if you have faith that it is the word of god and you feel the spirit testify to you of that fact, then I can't disagree with that. 1
Ranch2727 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 Thanks, I can say this about me, I’m no wordsmith.
manol Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ranch2727 said: the bible is Gods word. Imo one problem with labeling the entire Bible as "God's word" is that doing so elevates those parts which are the words of this or that man to a status they do not merit, while simultaneously diluting the importance of those parts which really ARE "God's word", such as the teachings of Jesus Christ. Much as I like some of the things Paul said, in my opinion the Words of Paul are not in the same category as the Words of Christ. 11 hours ago, Ranch2727 said: We are saved by grace and grace alone. That’s what the Bible teaches and what a beautiful gift from God. That is what Paul teaches. Are we to be disciples of Paul, or disciples of Jesus Christ? The Christian world is largely focused on believing that salvation comes from believing something ABOUT Jesus Christ, while Christ himself taught that salvation comes from ACTUALLY BELIEVING his words and ACTUALLY DOING them. Jesus' idea of what "believing" in him entails is shown by these words: "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 "If ye continue in my word, then ye are my disciples indeed." John 8:31 Again, who are we to be disciples of? Of Paul, or of Christ? And Jesus is teaching us how to really progress because what he envisions for us is absolutely incredible: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 Edited July 18, 2022 by manol 1
Ranch2727 Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 Nope, don’t be crass. We can learn from paul but the only man I will be worshiping is Jesus.
manol Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said: Nope, don’t be crass. We can learn from paul but the only man I will be worshiping is Jesus. I never said you don't worship Jesus. But whose teachings are you actually following? 1
Ranch2727 Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 I’m following the teachings of Christ and I’m saved by his blood and grace. Born again into the body of Christ.
manol Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said: I’m saved by his blood and grace. That's what Paul taught. 11 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said: I’m following the teachings of Christ What did Christ teach? Did he teach that we are all under condemnation and need to be saved by grace? No, that was Paul. What did Christ teach? Edited July 18, 2022 by manol 1
Ranch2727 Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 Love the Lord God with all your heart and love your neighbor. Pretty simple for me.
manol Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said: Love the Lord God with all your heart and love your neighbor. Pretty simple for me. YES!! There is an enormous amount taught in these few words: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40) So let's look at the First Great Commandment: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." In other words, we are to love God completely and without reservation (I could get into more accurate translations of the words, but that's the gist of them either way). Would Jesus give us a commandment we cannot keep? Of course not. That would be cruel, and Jesus was not cruel. Therefore it must actually be POSSIBLE for each of us to truly love God with all our heart, soul, and mind. Let me ask a follow-up question: Can you love that which you fear? Well you're probably remembering some adult from your childhood whom you feared, but you still loved them. So let me rephrase: Can you love that which you fear "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" - in other words, completely and without reservation? And of course the answer is no. So the ONLY way we can reasonably be expected to obey the First and Great commandment is, if we have absolutely ZERO reason to fear God! That's the only scenario under which we can truly obey the First and Great Commandment. The Father condemns no one, and Jesus did not come into the world to condemn it. So we do not need "saving" from condemnation because neither God nor Christ waste their time and energy on condemning us. But they DO want us to progress, as the verses I quoted in a previous post indicate, and THAT is why Jesus' teachings are the most important teachings we have, by far. The Second Great Commandment is "like unto the first", though how so is not readily apparent at first glance, and I don't have time to do a deep dive into the Second Great Commandment right now, but briefly it calls upon us to do three things: Love one another without reservation; forgive one another without keeping score; and see one another through a lens we never would have thought of on our own. That lens is described in the parable at the end of Matthew Chapter 25, and here is the pivotal verse: "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." In other words, we are supposed to see and treat others as if they are the Christ in disguise! The teachings of Paul about grace are GREAT if you believe that you are under condemnation, as they give you a path out from under that condemnation. But the higher truth is that you were never under condemnation to begin with! Rather, you and I and everyone else are called to BECOME like Christ (and we are free to do so insofar as we reasonably can), and by far the best collection of teachings on the subject are the words of Jesus as found in the four Gospels. In my opinion. Edited July 18, 2022 by manol 1
JAHS Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 26 minutes ago, manol said: YES!! There is an enormous amount taught in these few words: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40) So let's look at the First Great Commandment: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." In other words, we are to love God completely and without reservation (I could get into more accurate translations of the words, but that's the gist of them either way). Would Jesus give us a commandment we cannot keep? Of course not. That would be cruel, and Jesus was not cruel. Therefore it must actually be POSSIBLE for each of us to truly love God with all our heart, soul, and mind. Let me ask a follow-up question: Can you love that which you fear? Well you're probably remembering some adult from your childhood whom you feared, but you still loved them. So let me rephrase: Can you love that which you fear "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" - in other words, completely and without reservation? And of course the answer is no. So the ONLY way we can reasonably be expected to obey the First and Great commandment is, if we have absolutely ZERO reason to fear God! That's the only scenario under which we can truly obey the First and Great Commandment. The Father condemns no one, and Jesus did not come into the world to condemn it. So we do not need "saving" from condemnation because neither God nor Jesus waste their time and energy on condemning us. But they DO want us to progress, as the verses I quoted in a previous post indicate, and THAT is why Jesus' teachings are the most important teachings we have, by far. The Second Great Commandment is "like unto the first", though how so is not readily apparent at first glance, and I don't have time to do a deep dive into the Second Great Commandment right now, but briefly it calls upon us to do three things: Love one another, forgive one another, and see one another through a lens we never would have thought of on our own. That lens is described in the parable at the end of Matthew Chapter 25, and here is the pivotal verse: "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." In other words, we are supposed to see and treat others as if they are the Christ in disguise! The teachings of Paul about grace are GREAT if you believe that you are under condemnation, as they give you a path out from under that condemnation. But the higher truth is that you were never under condemnation to begin with! Rather, you and I and everyone else are called to BECOME like Christ (and we are free to do so insofar as we reasonably can), and by far the best collection of teachings on the subject are the words of Jesus as found in the four Gospels. In my opinion. The concept of grace being involved in our salvation is hard to understand when comparing Biblical scriptures, especially if they are taken out of context. Paul and James seem to teach conflicting things about grace and works Paul Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works." Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight." Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." compared to James: James 2 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Then Jesus said: Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matt. 24:13.) So apparently we are saved by grace but we also have to live the commandments, perform good works, and endure to the end as well. 1
Calm Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) Enduring isn’t always actually as hard as people sometimes make it out to be. Enduring is treading water, not a swim race or just sticking around to the end of the ninth inning even if bored out of your skull, not leaving to beat the traffic. Just keeping on trying is enduring. The other stuff might be the more complicated depending on how well you can see Christ in the people around you and if loving and honesty and other moral behaviour come naturally to you or not. Edited July 18, 2022 by Calm 2
manol Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) 54 minutes ago, JAHS said: The concept of grace being involved in our salvation is hard to understand when comparing Biblical scriptures, especially if they are taken out of context. Paul and James seem to teach conflicting things about grace and works Imo the teachings of Jesus vastly transcend the teachings of both Paul and James. If we don't dilute the teachings of Jesus with the paradigms of well-meaning (though vastly lesser) men, the distracting debate over grace versus works doesn't even show up. Imo what Jesus does in the Gospels is, he gives us teachings which are of the highest value if we are supposed to, and if we INTEND to, become the same manner of men (and women) that he is. The words of Jesus work on two levels. First, they convey correct and uplifting concepts and principles to our minds. Second, they elevate the light or energy or vibrational state of our spirits, and thereby entrain our spirits to a higher level: "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 Edited July 18, 2022 by manol
Calm Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 12 minutes ago, manol said: vibrational state Stick with light and energy. Means probably the same as how you are using vibrational I am guessing, and avoids the new age baggage that pretends to be science, but is so not. 1
manol Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Calm said: Stick with light and energy. Means probably the same as how you are using vibrational I am guessing, and avoids the new age baggage that pretends to be science, but is so not. Thanks for your advice! I don't know of wording that really fits what I'd like to convey, but should have been more mindful of where I am and who I'm "talking" to. The electromagnetic spectrum is the closest this-world analog I can think of, with "darkness" at one end and "light" at the other, in which case the word "frequency" might have been better, but probably not by much. I'll try to remember to stick with "light" and "energy", unless perchance wording which conveys well sans baggage occurs to me. Again, thanks. Edited July 18, 2022 by manol 1
JAHS Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) 51 minutes ago, manol said: Imo the teachings of Jesus vastly transcend the teachings of both Paul and James. If we don't dilute the teachings of Jesus with the paradigms of well-meaning (though vastly lesser) men, the distracting debate over grace versus works doesn't even show up. Imo what Jesus does in the Gospels is, he gives us teachings which are of the highest value if we are supposed to, and if we INTEND to, become the same manner of men (and women) that he is. The words of Jesus work on two levels. First, they convey correct and uplifting concepts and principles to our minds. Second, they elevate the light or energy or vibrational state of our spirits, and thereby entrain our spirits to a higher level: "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 It's interesting that in the New Testament Jesus Himself never used the word "grace" in anything He said. Edited July 18, 2022 by JAHS 1
Calm Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, manol said: electromagnetic spectrum is the closest this-world analog I can think of The above is electromagnetic radiation which could be described as seen and unseen/visible and invisible light, so light is a great word for something analogous to the EM spectrum. ”The light we can see, made up of the individual colors of the rainbow, represents only a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Other types of light include radio waves, microwaves, infrared radiation, ultraviolet rays, X-rays and gamma rays — all of which are imperceptible to human eyes.” https://hubblesite.org/contents/articles/the-electromagnetic-spectrum One can also describe it as energy, though there are other forms, so radiant energy would be more accurate. https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Radiant_energy Frequency is just a property of light/energy. As is wavelength. And therefore vibration. “Increases our spiritual energy” or “spiritual energy capacity” probably would be understood by most without having to explain in detail. Edited July 18, 2022 by Calm 1
Calm Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 2 hours ago, JAHS said: It's interesting that in the New Testament Jesus Himself never used the word "grace" in anything He said. Does that include the original Greek or whatever word that is translated as “grace”?
JAHS Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 6 hours ago, Calm said: Does that include the original Greek or whatever word that is translated as “grace”? I don't know. I just did a search in the King James and Joseph Smith's inspired version and did not find the word "grace". He did mention grace when He spoke to Moroni in the Book of Mormon (Ether 12: 26-27) 1
Ranch2727 Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 Over the years this has been said to me…. So because you believe in grace that you can do whatever you want and be saved. I say yes, but because I love God I choose not to. Because of that gift I don’t have to endure to the end, easy concept for me.
JAHS Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 8 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said: Over the years this has been said to me…. So because you believe in grace that you can do whatever you want and be saved. I say yes, but because I love God I choose not to. Because of that gift I don’t have to endure to the end, easy concept for me. In a perfect world that is how we all should see it, but lots of us still make wrong choices so we keep repenting and try harder to make right choices. That is how we endure.
Ranch2727 Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 Ok I see, I guess I’m enduring as well because I definitely make mistakes. Thanks
InCognitus Posted July 19, 2022 Posted July 19, 2022 On 7/17/2022 at 7:58 PM, Ranch2727 said: Love the Lord God with all your heart and love your neighbor. Pretty simple for me. What about the other commandments that Jesus gave us? They are all summarized by these two of course, but he certainly gave us other commandments, didn't he? Are they important to keep? And do you believe that we reap what we sow? Or does grace eliminate the need to sow anything?
Ranch2727 Posted July 19, 2022 Posted July 19, 2022 Well I don’t think we should take his gift of grace for granted, but who among us can keep any let alone all the commandments. james 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. I think he knew we could never be perfect in the law but asked us to do the two. We have the capacity to only worship Him and love others. The others not so much.
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