What does the phrase "the pure love of Christ" mean?

[Olmec Donald]

In another thread ProphetShiloh wrote:  “The most reliable quality is the pure love of Christ”

I realize I'm quoting without context here, but the context is being thoroughly explored in that other thread, and would be off-topic to this one. 

So I would like to toss out a question to the general membership here, ProphetShiloh included of course:

What does the phrase "the pure love of Christ" mean? I am aware of Moroni chapter 7 verse 47. Are there any other meaningful implications of, or insights into, this phrase?

Edited November 16, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

In another thread ProphetShiloh wrote:  “The most reliable quality is the pure love of Christ”

I realize I'm quoting without context here, but the context is being thoroughly explored in that other thread, and would be off-topic to this one. 

So I would like to toss out a question to the general membership here, ProphetShiloh included of course:

What does the phrase "the pure love of Christ" mean? I am aware of Moroni chapter 7 verse 47. Are there any other meaningful implications of, or insights into, this phrase?

This is a good source for your question: https://rsc.byu.edu/living-book-mormon-abiding-its-precepts/pure-love-christ-divine-precept-charity-moroni-7

I have found that the pure love of Christ is first experienced. Until we experience it in our lives, we cannot posses it. And we experience it by asking for it, seeking it, and living worthy of it.

Once we experience it, we then want to share that love with others. When others come to us, our goal is to feel their pain, to share in that sorrow, and help lift them from whatever chains bind them, and show them the light that Christ provides.

This love, this Charity is a passive thing that encompasses all. This means that when people say “I need more charity for so-and-so”, they really do not have charity at all, but rather, they are referring to one of the many secular contemporaries of charity. Charity is found within yourself, not outside.

 

Some Secular Contemporaries of Charity include:

- affection

- patience

- kindness

- tolerance

- attraction

- excitement for someone

- passion

- gratitude

- appreciation

[Olmec Donald]

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

This is a good source for your question: https://rsc.byu.edu/living-book-mormon-abiding-its-precepts/pure-love-christ-divine-precept-charity-moroni-7

Interesting article, thank you.  The author takes the concept well beyond "charity" as we usually think of it, and connects it with "becoming as Christ is".  I agree!

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

I have found that the pure love of Christ is first experienced. Until we experience it in our lives, we cannot posses it. And we experience it by asking for it, seeking it, and living worthy of it.

That makes sense.  A person cannot give what they do not have.  

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

This love, this Charity is a passive thing that encompasses all.

I don't think I've heard it put that way before.  What do you mean by "all"? 

Are you saying that "the pure love of Christ is a passive thing that encompasses all"? 

Does the phrase "the pure love of Christ" imply anything in addition to "charity"?   

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

don't think I've heard it put that way before.  What do you mean by "all"? 

Are you saying that "the pure love of Christ is a passive thing that encompasses all"? 

Does the phrase "the pure love of Christ" imply anything in addition to "charity"?   

That was pretty vague huh. My point was that you don’t develop Charity by choosing to love one person at a time. If you are taking that approach, you are not growing Charity, but rather on of its lesser contemporaries.

Charity is grown within. As it grows within, your Charity for others grows. If you say you lack Charity for a single person, you are not then talking about Charity, you are likely mistaking it for tolerance and patience. It’s not Charity for a person you lack, it’s Your heart that lacks Charity.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Fether

[Olmec Donald]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

My point was that you don’t develop Charity by choosing to love one person at a time.

Omigosh YES!  You are absolutely right!   That is brilliant!!

[webbles]

This doesn't really explain the phrase but it possibly explains why that phrase is in the Book of Mormon - https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/tyndale-versus-more-in-the-book-of-mormon/

In that article, Royal Skousen talks about an argument between William Tyndale and Thomas More about how certain words in the Bible should be translated.  One of those words was "agape".  Tyndale used "love" in his translation but More thought it should actually be "charity".  By the time King James version was translated, the decision was to use "love" most of the time, with a few instances of "charity".

Skousen states:

Quote

Interestingly, the Book of Mormon is in full agreement with the vocabulary decisions made in the King James Bible, yet it makes adjustments for the original debate by making sure that you, the reader, correctly understand how to interpret these words. Thus we find that the Book of Mormon often tells the reader that the word charity is ’love’ – that is, in various places it adds the word love so that you won’t think that the text is referring to alms giving (Tyndale’s complaint about the Latinate word charity).

Quote

The translation issues that Thomas More attacked William Tyndale over were basically settled in the King James Bible (1611), yet the Book of Mormon takes those translation issues to their final conclusion by explicitly resolving the conflict by (1) frequently declaring charity to be love, as in the “pure love of Christ”, (2) allowing for both elders and priests as offices in the church, and (3) explicitly stating that the word church refers to both congregation and God’s organization. The Book of Mormon resolves the controversy in favor of the King James solution but from the point of view of William Tyndale.

 

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

In another thread ProphetShiloh wrote:  “The most reliable quality is the pure love of Christ”

I realize I'm quoting without context here, but the context is being thoroughly explored in that other thread, and would be off-topic to this one. 

So I would like to toss out a question to the general membership here, ProphetShiloh included of course:

What does the phrase "the pure love of Christ" mean? I am aware of Moroni chapter 7 verse 47. Are there any other meaningful implications of, or insights into, this phrase?

I had an BoM teacher at BYU who said charity, the pure love of Christ, is the atonement and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. To possess charity we have to be in possession of the benefits of the atonement or in the covenant path with Christ.  At least that was his ideas on it.  And he backed it with scripture passages.

[Islander]

In the Greek original of the Gospels, the writers describe and distinguish between 4 different words to describe love. 

Eros: erotic, passionate love.
Philia: love of friends, brotherhood, familial and of equals.
Storge: love of parents for children.
Agape: unselfish, sacrificial, all-encompassing love

Unfortunately, most modern languages have lost the ability to express those qualities with precision and transparency. In America, specially, we have totally corrupted the word "love" to a point that it almost means nothing.

When the scriptures talk about the "love of God" it always talks about Agape. It is the love that is always true, it never changes. It is profound, boundless, selfless, the kind of love that extends forever; the kind of love that part of His attributes. Moroni paints a very clear picture in 7:45 of what love "does". Love is a verb and can only be described by what "action" it produces, how it manifests itself in "motion" At times we may be fooled by the 19th century English of the translation so we have to pay attention to what the scripture actually meant to the 19th century readers rather than what we may see in the "modern reading".

"...it suffereth long": it stands firm on face of adversity, it has staying power, it doesn't fade when the going gets tough.

"...is kind": It pour itself out in service and aid to others. It treats all as it they were family.

"...and envieth not": it doesn't covet, it is not focused on material things or the economic standing of people, it does not seek positions or authority.

"...is not puffed up" it is not self-seeking, it doesn't parade its accomplishments, achievements, it doesn't talk about itself in order to feel better/superior.

"...seeketh not her own": totally selfless, it pour itself out in the service of others.

"...is not easily provoked": It is not offended by what others say or think. It does not retaliate when injured or malign.

"...thinketh no evil": It doesn't hold a grudge, it is not cynical or harbors suspicion about what other may be doing.

"...rejoices not in iniquity": it does not enjoy those things that are sinful and offensive to God. (Gossip is a good example)

"...rejoices in the truth": eager to bring good news, to share the truth and to embrace the reality of Salvation and the work of God.

"...beareth all thing:" love covers a multitude of sins, it does not proclaim publicly the failures and trails of others, it stands with those in need to bear their burdens.

"...believeth all things:" it never despairs because it believes all the promises of God.

"...hopeth all things": it is not shaken by adversity, it is fixed on the promised future according to faith.

"...endure all things...": you can't kill true love. it remains steadfast. Even when stunned by disappointment; it never fails to rekindle. It always remembers the covenant. 

I love Moroni's passage above the one in Corinthians 13 for a number of reasons, especially because it connects this "pure love of Christ" as a non-negotiable. He states in no uncertain terms that this kind of love is the hallmark of the true followers of Christ. He also makes it clear that we can't "manufacture" this kind of love. We can't fake it and that this kind of love is not of human origin. We must pray to the Father to pour this love into our hearts. Without that love expressing itself in our everyday lives as we deal with those around us we are nothing. Because this love is the evidence that we are truly sons and daughters of our Heavenly Fathers. And thus, because we love as Christ loved we then shall be like Him; true heirs of the kingdom prepared for us. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Islander

[Islander]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I had an BoM teacher at BYU who said charity, the pure love of Christ, is the atonement and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. To possess charity we have to be in possession of the benefits of the atonement or in the covenant path with Christ.  At least that was his ideas on it.  And he backed it with scripture passages.

The professor was wrong. Moroni describes what that pure love is in chapter 7. No need for additional interpretations.

[Islander]

12 hours ago, webbles said:

This doesn't really explain the phrase but it possibly explains why that phrase is in the Book of Mormon - https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/tyndale-versus-more-in-the-book-of-mormon/

In that article, Royal Skousen talks about an argument between William Tyndale and Thomas More about how certain words in the Bible should be translated.  One of those words was "agape".  Tyndale used "love" in his translation but More thought it should actually be "charity".  By the time King James version was translated, the decision was to use "love" most of the time, with a few instances of "charity".

Skousen states:

 

By the 1600 "charity" had come to mean something that, even today, it is not "emotionally" or existentially tight to "love". Today lots of people appear "charitable" but they do it out of very selfish reasons rather than true (agape) love.

[Teancum]

47 minutes ago, Islander said:

The professor was wrong. Moroni describes what that pure love is in chapter 7. No need for additional interpretations.

Could be.  I may be remembering wrong.  It was about 38 years ago.

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

The professor was wrong. Moroni describes what that pure love is in chapter 7. No need for additional interpretations.

Moroni 7 is not an exhaustive definition of all that Charity is. If it were, why are there so many talks and articles on it?

[Olmec Donald]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I had an BoM teacher at BYU who said charity, the pure love of Christ, is the atonement and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. To possess charity we have to be in possession of the benefits of the atonement or in the covenant path with Christ.  At least that was his ideas on it.  And he backed it with scripture passages.

Thank you for participating here Teancum.   I get the impression that religion isn't really your thing (correct me if I'm wrong!). 

Imo the correct use of religion would be, to lighten people's burdens.  Some use if for that and some use it for other things.  At least within Mormonism there is enough freedom of thought, and a big enough constellation of things to think about, that the option exists.  In my opinion. 

For instance, look at what Fether wrote above.  I don't know where he got it from but my assumption is that an LDS background contributed: 

20 hours ago, Fether said:

You don’t develop Charity by choosing to love one person at a time.

You get a whole religion looking through that lens and the world becomes a better place.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

Thank you for participating here Teancum.   I get the impression that religion isn't really your thing (correct me if I'm wrong!). 

Imo the correct use of religion would be, to lighten people's burdens.  Some use if for that and some use it for other things.  At least within Mormonism there is enough freedom of thought, and a big enough constellation of things to think about, that the option exists.  In my opinion. 

For instance, look at what Fether wrote above.  I don't know where he got it from but my assumption is that an LDS background contributed: 

You get a whole religion looking through that lens and the world becomes a better place.

Well the Mormon religion was my entire thing for most of my life.  Not so much now.  I call myself a skeptical seeker of truth, wherever it may be found. 

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Well the Mormon religion was my entire thing for most of my life.  Not so much now.  I call myself a skeptical seeker of truth, wherever it may be found. 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with "skeptical seeker of truth".   You would be welcome among my people, the Olmecs.  We might ask you to put on some pants. 

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

I see absolutely nothing wrong with "skeptical seeker of truth".   You would be welcome among my people, the Olmecs.  We might ask you to put on some pants. 

Dang it!

That's too restrictive for me!

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/16/2021 at 5:04 PM, Fether said:

........................

I have found that the pure love of Christ is first experienced. Until we experience it in our lives, we cannot posses it. And we experience it by asking for it, seeking it, and living worthy of it.

Perhaps the unconditional love of our mothers is our first experience of the pure love of Christ, although not all mothers have it.

On 11/16/2021 at 5:04 PM, Fether said:

Once we experience it, we then want to share that love with others. When others come to us, our goal is to feel their pain, to share in that sorrow, and help lift them from whatever chains bind them, and show them the light that Christ provides.

This love, this Charity is a passive thing that encompasses all. ................ the many secular contemporaries of charity. Charity is found within yourself, not outside.

Some Secular Contemporaries of Charity include:......................

"Charity" is a KJV mistranslation for New Testament "love."  It is active, not passive.

[Fether]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Charity" is a KJV mistranslation for New Testament "love."  It is active, not passive.

Passive was not the best word for it. I was using video game RPG lingo haha. What I meant by passive was that when you have Charity, it applies to everything you do, not just a single action. If you are empathetic, kind and patient to one person, but not another, you don’t have charity. Charity is manifested in All that you do.

[Islander]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:21 PM, Fether said:

Moroni 7 is not an exhaustive definition of all that Charity is. If it were, why are there so many talks and articles on it?

Talks and articles are just commentary. I place very little stock on them. I can read very well in several languages and have studied the scriptures and other study aids consistently for nearly 30 years now. There are no new insights into the text. It has been dissected by dozens of people over the course of 150 years. But, The revelation of God is IN the scripture itself and all you need to know is contained therein.

Moroni gave us a very detailed and exhaustive description of what the "pure love of Christ" is, what it looks like in action, in real life. We can go to the Bible and see what the other Apostles of the Lord have said about the love of Christ and cross reference and see if the description is further expanded. That is the revealed word of God and should be always your first point of reference. 

"Do you read the Scriptures, my brethren and sisters, as though you were writing them a thousand, two thousand, or five thousand years ago? Do you read them as though you stood in the place of the men who wrote them? If you do not feel thus, it is your privilege to do so, that you may be as familiar with the spirit and meaning of the written word of God as you are with your daily walk and conversation, or as you are with your workmen or with your households. You may understand what the Prophets understood and thought—what they designed and planned to bring forth to their brethren for their good.” Journal of Discourses 7: 333

Edited November 19, 2021 by Islander

[Islander]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:17 PM, Fether said:

That was pretty vague huh. My point was that you don’t develop Charity by choosing to love one person at a time. If you are taking that approach, you are not growing Charity, but rather on of its lesser contemporaries.

Charity is grown within. As it grows within, your Charity for others grows. If you say you lack Charity for a single person, you are not then talking about Charity, you are likely mistaking it for tolerance and patience. It’s not Charity for a person you lack, it’s Your heart that lacks Charity.

I disagree with your characterization of what "charity" means. First and foremost, the KJV translation choice of that word renders our understanding of it quite far from what it actually means. Moroni was talking about "pure love..." The kind that God has for us that allowed His ONLY, perfect Son to be murdered to pay the penalty for our sins. The kind of love the Savior displayed in total and complete submission to the will of the Father to complete the Atonement and bring salvation to those the would believe in Him.  It is truly selfless, outward, unadulterated loved poured out upon us; worthless creatures who are declared enemies of God. You CAN'T "grow" that kind of love. It is GIVEN to us by the Father. Moroni says: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he  (The Father) hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ..." This kind of love comes from above. The kind of love that Moroni described can not be self-generated by any human means. 

You have to move away from what you think "charity" means today and read the scripture slowly to capture its real meaning and intent.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Islander

[Fether]

5 hours ago, Islander said:

I disagree with your characterization of what "charity" means. First and foremost, the KJV translation choice of that word renders our understanding of it quite far from what it actually means. Moroni was talking about "pure love..." The kind that God has for us that allowed His ONLY, perfect Son to be murdered to pay the penalty for our sins. The kind of love the Savior displayed in total and complete submission to the will of the Father to complete the Atonement and bring salvation to those the would believe in Him.  It is truly selfless, outward, unadulterated loved poured out upon us; worthless creatures who are declared enemies of God. You CAN'T "grow" that kind of love. It is GIVEN to us by the Father. Moroni says: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he  (The Father) hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ..." This kind of love comes from above. The kind of love that Moroni described can not be self-generated by any human means. 

You have to move away from what you think "charity" means today and read the scripture slowly to capture its real meaning and intent.

I agree completely. Your right, it isn’t grown, it is given.

My point, however, was the Charity is all encompassing, not just something you do towards someone. I wasn’t being particularly careful with my wording on how one acquires charity

[Fether]

.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Fether

[Fether]

6 hours ago, Islander said:

Talks and articles are just commentary. I place very little stock on them. I can read very well in several languages and have studied the scriptures and other study aids consistently for nearly 30 years now. There are no new insights into the text. It has been dissected by dozens of people over the course of 150 years. But, The revelation of God is IN the scripture itself and all you need to know is contained therein.

Moroni gave us a very detailed and exhaustive description of what the "pure love of Christ" is, what it looks like in action, in real life. We can go to the Bible and see what the other Apostles of the Lord have said about the love of Christ and cross reference and see if the description is further expanded. That is the revealed word of God and should be always your first point of reference. 

"Do you read the Scriptures, my brethren and sisters, as though you were writing them a thousand, two thousand, or five thousand years ago? Do you read them as though you stood in the place of the men who wrote them? If you do not feel thus, it is your privilege to do so, that you may be as familiar with the spirit and meaning of the written word of God as you are with your daily walk and conversation, or as you are with your workmen or with your households. You may understand what the Prophets understood and thought—what they designed and planned to bring forth to their brethren for their good.” Journal of Discourses 7: 333

 

[mfbukowski]

On 11/18/2021 at 12:24 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps the unconditional love of our mothers is our first experience of the pure love of Christ, although not all mothers have it.

"Charity" is a KJV mistranslation for New Testament "love."  It is active, not passive.

In the Greek, could it mean "loving Christ purely"?

It's ambiguous in English.

Is it for loving others or loving Christ? 

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

In the Greek, could it mean "loving Christ purely"?

It's ambiguous in English.

Is it for loving others or loving Christ? 

It works both ways:  First He loved us, as in I Jn 4:10 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us” ēgapēsen humas, and Eph 5:2 “Christ...hath loved us” Christos... ēgapēsen humas, and Jn 13:34, 15:9,12 “I have loved you” ēgapēsa humas/humas ēgapēsa; Isa 63:7 “the lovingkindness of the LORD” ḥasdē-YHWH (literally the “grace of Yahweh”).  Thus, we should do the same:  I Tim 1:5 “love out of a pure heart” agapē ek katharas kardias; Prov 22:11 “he that loveth purely of heart” ʼoheb ṭehor leb.

As Matthew Richarson has said,

Quote

“As we receive the pure love of Christ—meaning the love from Christ (the Atonement), which in turn generates our love for Christ—our disposition is changed.”  https://rsc.byu.edu/living-book-mormon-abiding-its-precepts/pure-love-christ-divine-precept-charity-moroni-7 .

A difficult transition to make, but one which has real survival value.