Are children born to excommunicated parents still born in the covenant?

[webbles]

I'm doing some family history and discovered a person that is not marked as "born in the covenant" even though his parents were sealed to each other several years before he was born.  We know that his parents left the church before he was born but I think he should still be "born in the covenant".

But it made me think about the case if his parents had both been excommunicated (which is unlikely).  Would he still be considered "born in the covenant"?

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, webbles said:

I'm doing some family history and discovered a person that is not marked as "born in the covenant" even though his parents were sealed to each other several years before he was born.  We know that his parents left the church before he was born but I think he should still be "born in the covenant".

But it made me think about the case if his parents had both been excommunicated (which is unlikely).  Would he still be considered "born in the covenant"?

From the handbook of instructions:

 

Quote

 

38.4.1.8

Effects of Withdrawal of Membership or Resignation

After a husband and wife have been sealed in a temple, if Church membership is withdrawn from one of them or if one of them has resigned membership, his or her temple blessings are revoked. However, personal blessings of the sealing for the spouse and children remain in force if they remain worthy.

Children who are born to a couple after one or the other has had Church membership withdrawn or has resigned membership are not born in the covenant. See 38.4.2.8.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng

 

 

[smac97]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

I'm doing some family history and discovered a person that is not marked as "born in the covenant" even though his parents were sealed to each other several years before he was born.  We know that his parents left the church before he was born but I think he should still be "born in the covenant".

But it made me think about the case if his parents had both been excommunicated (which is unlikely).  Would he still be considered "born in the covenant"?

Very good question.  The answer is, it seems, "no, they are not born in the covenant."  Excommunication "looses" what was previously "bound."  See, e.g., here:

Quote

After the rebaptism of a person who has not been endowed in the temple, his or her membership record shows the original baptism date, with no reference to the excommunication. A man who previously held the priesthood but was not endowed should generally be ordained to his former priesthood office. Again, his membership record will show his original ordination date, with no reference to excommunication.

A person who was endowed in the temple before being excommunicated may regain priesthood and/or temple blessings only through the ordinance of restoration of blessings. This is a special ordinance performed by a General Authority as directed by the First Presidency. Afterwards, a new membership record is created, showing the original dates of baptism, endowment, sealing, and (if applicable) priesthood ordinations—with no reference to excommunication.

Our Father in Heaven is pleased to restore former blessings to his sons and daughters when they have demonstrated sincere and complete repentance.

See also here:

Quote

A formal disciplinary council can result in four possible outcomes: (1) no action; (2) a formal probation involving restricted privileges; (3) disfellowshipment; or (4) excommunication. Disfellowshipment is a temporary suspension of membership privileges. A disfellowshipped person remains a Church member but may not enter Church temples, hold Church callings, exercise the priesthood, partake of the Sacrament, or participate openly in public meetings. An excommunicated person is no longer a member of the Church, and all priesthood ordinances and temple blessings previously received are suspended. Excommunicants may not pay tithing and, if previously endowed in a temple, may not wear temple garments. They may attend Church meetings. Excommunicants may later qualify for rebaptism after lengthy and full repentance and still later may apply for a formal restoration of their original priesthood and temple blessings.

And Per the old CHI, Book 1, sec. 3.6.1:

Quote

Status of Children When a Sealing Is Canceled or Revoked

 

Children who are born in the covenant or sealed to parents remain so even if the sealing of the parents is later (1) canceled or (2) revoked by the excommunication or name removal of either parent. Children who are born after their parents’ sealing is canceled or revoked are not born in the covenant. These children need to be sealed to their parents after their parents’ blessings are restored (if applicable) and any other obstacles are removed

And from 38.4.2.8 of the current handbook:

Quote

38.4.2.8

Status of Children When a Sealing Is Canceled or Revoked

Children who are born in the covenant or sealed to parents remain so even if the sealing of the parents is later (1) canceled or (2) revoked by the withdrawal or resignation of Church membership of either parent. Children who are born after their parents’ sealing is canceled or revoked are not born in the covenant. These children need to be sealed to their parents after their parents’ blessings are restored (if applicable) and any other obstacles are removed.

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, webbles said:

But it made me think about the case if his parents had both been excommunicated (which is unlikely).  Would he still be considered "born in the covenant"?

If a covenant was a car, excommunication would have you getting out of the car.   You can't give birth to a kid inside a car, if you're outside of the car.

That said, if there never was an excommunication, or there was one, and then a later baptism and restoration of blessings, the kid may need an update on his record.

Edited October 29, 2021 by LoudmouthMormon

[webbles]

Thanks for all the responses.

[rpn]

Of course --- you can't change history.   Of course that may not mean that the sealing remains after their excommunication at least as far as the parents are concerned.   But I'd bet that children who remain faithful will be able to visit parents wherever they may end up.

[Mike Drop]

20 hours ago, webbles said:

I'm doing some family history and discovered a person that is not marked as "born in the covenant" even though his parents were sealed to each other several years before he was born.  We know that his parents left the church before he was born but I think he should still be "born in the covenant".

But it made me think about the case if his parents had both been excommunicated (which is unlikely).  Would he still be considered "born in the covenant"?

Are you asking would a child still be “born in the covenant “ in our eyes(the information you found) or in Gods eyes? Because all that matters is what God understands. What we think we understand is pretty much meaningless. Every child is “born in the covenant”, Mormonism isn’t the only way to make it back to God.

 

  The sealing ceremony, once performed can’t be taken away by another human. You see, the ceremonies we perform in our church are one of the ways God communicates with his children. Any ceremony, Mormon or otherwise, is performed in a way that restructures how we view the life we’re living. Look at it this way. If we were a vehicle, a ceremony is the force God uses to turn the vehicle and put us on a different road. There’s no reverse in this vehicle, all of us are moving forward. 

So basically, what I’m saying is, once a ceremony is performed there’s no “reverse”, Gods the one that turned you and put you on a different road and there’s no going back. So don’t worry what the information you found says. God didnt write it, a human did and that means absolutely nothing in Gods eyes. If you think one child is sealed to God and another isn’t because a computer screen says so, I would suggest keep searching for why we are actually on earth.
 

 

[smac97]

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Are you asking would a child still be “born in the covenant “ in our eyes(the information you found) or in Gods eyes? Because all that matters is what God understands.

I agree.

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

What we think we understand is pretty much meaningless.

Unless, of course, "what we think we understand" comes from prophets and apostles.  

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Every child is “born in the covenant”,

Could you elaborate?

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Mormonism isn’t the only way to make it back to God.

Well, reasonable minds can disagree about such things.

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

 The sealing ceremony, once performed can’t be taken away by another human.

The sealing is performed by authority from God.  That authority includes the power to seal and the power to loose.

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

You see, the ceremonies we perform in our church are one of the ways God communicates with his children.

I'm not sure that's correct, or complete.

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Any ceremony, Mormon or otherwise, is performed in a way that restructures how we view the life we’re living.

There validity of the ceremony depends on the authority of those adminisetering it and the ratification of it by the Holy Spirit.

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Look at it this way. If we were a vehicle, a ceremony is the force God uses to turn the vehicle and put us on a different road. There’s no reverse in this vehicle, all of us are moving forward. 

I'm not sure that's correct.  Christ gave His followers the power to seal and the power to loose.

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

So basically, what I’m saying is, once a ceremony is performed there’s no “reverse”,

With respect, I think that is incorrect.

7 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Gods the one that turned you and put you on a different road and there’s no going back. So don’t worry what the information you found says. God didnt write it, a human did and that means absolutely nothing in Gods eyes. If you think one child is sealed to God and another isn’t because a computer screen says so, I would suggest keep searching for why we are actually on earth.

Not sure what you are saying here.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Maidservant]

Not in the case of my younger brother circa the 1980s. He was born after one of his natural parents was excommunicated, even though his other natural parent was continuing to  keep their covenants. And they both had been sealed in the temple earlier and had three children in the covenant before the excommunication.