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By Faith All Things Are Fulfilled


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I had some questions on this section of the manual.  Rather than break it up into individual
threads, I hope its ok to include all in one to make it simpler.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf

This section covers Ether, chapters 12-15.  Many events were skipped over but I noticed
them when my family and I were reading the chapters. 

Ether 12:7 said  "For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after 
he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had 
faith in him
".  

But this is not how Nephi recorded it. The people in the land of Bountiful didn't 
believe it was Jesus until after they saw him and felt his body (3 Nephi 11-14-17).
  
Ether 12:30 said "For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove-and it 
was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest 
after men have faith
".  

Where was it moved to?  Or did the mountain just disappear?

Ether 13:7 said the "Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of 
Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not
"

Does this mean that no descendants of Joseph were exiled to Babylonian captivity or remained
alive in Jerusalem?

Ether 14:1 said "And now there began to be a great curse upon all the land because of 
the iniquity of the people, in which, if a man should lay his tool or his sword upon 
his shelf, or upon the place whither he would keep it, behold, upon the morrow, he could 
not find it, so great was the curse upon the land
".

Has this ever happened anywhere else in the Book of Mormon? 
  
Ether 14:10 said "And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, 
for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they 
who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel
".

Why is there no mention of the residents being members of the seed of other tribes?

Ether 14:17 says that Shiz overthrew and burned the cities.

Does this mean they were made of wood instead of cement and/or steel?

Ether 15 mentions the great war, where millions were killed.  From what I see, it lasted
8 days.  Verse 14 says they prepared four years for the battle.  Verses 15-29 details the 
days of battle.  Day 1 (v.15), day 2 (v. 17), day 3 (v. 20), day 4 (v. 21), day 5 (v. 23), 
day 6 (v. 24), day 7 (v. 27), day 8 (v. 29).

At the end of 8 days of battle, millions were killed and all but one survived?

Pete

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1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Ether 12:7 said  "For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after 
he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had 
faith in him
".  

But this is not how Nephi recorded it. The people in the land of Bountiful didn't 
believe it was Jesus until after they saw him and felt his body (3 Nephi 11-14-17).

That entire verse says
"For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world."

Could be that only some among the many needed to have faith in Him for Him to show himself to all of them. Or it could mean they they could not recognize who he was until they had faith.

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Ether 12:30 said "For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove-and it 
was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest 
after men have faith
".  

Where was it moved to?  Or did the mountain just disappear?

It doesn't say where it went.

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Ether 14:17 says that Shiz overthrew and burned the cities.

Does this mean they were made of wood instead of cement and/or steel?

A lot of possessions of the people necessary for life that were not made of stone or cement could be burned'
There could have been tents or homes made of straw and wood that were burned

 

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Ether 15 mentions the great war, where millions were killed.  From what I see, it lasted
8 days.  Verse 14 says they prepared four years for the battle.  Verses 15-29 details the 
days of battle.  Day 1 (v.15), day 2 (v. 17), day 3 (v. 20), day 4 (v. 21), day 5 (v. 23), 
day 6 (v. 24), day 7 (v. 27), day 8 (v. 29).

At the end of 8 days of battle, millions were killed and all but one survived?

The word million need not necessarily mean the exact number, but just means that a lot of people were killed.

 

Edited by JAHS
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11 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I had some questions on this section of the manual.  Rather than break it up into individual
threads, I hope its ok to include all in one to make it simpler.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf

This section covers Ether, chapters 12-15.  Many events were skipped over but I noticed
them when my family and I were reading the chapters. 

Ether 12:7 said  "For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after 
he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had 
faith in him
".  

But this is not how Nephi recorded it. The people in the land of Bountiful didn't 
believe it was Jesus until after they saw him and felt his body (3 Nephi 11-14-17).
  
Ether 12:30 said "For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove-and it 
was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest 
after men have faith
".  

Where was it moved to?  Or did the mountain just disappear?

Ether 13:7 said the "Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of 
Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not
"

Does this mean that no descendants of Joseph were exiled to Babylonian captivity or remained
alive in Jerusalem?

Ether 14:1 said "And now there began to be a great curse upon all the land because of 
the iniquity of the people, in which, if a man should lay his tool or his sword upon 
his shelf, or upon the place whither he would keep it, behold, upon the morrow, he could 
not find it, so great was the curse upon the land
".

Has this ever happened anywhere else in the Book of Mormon? 
  
Ether 14:10 said "And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, 
for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they 
who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel
".

Why is there no mention of the residents being members of the seed of other tribes?

Ether 14:17 says that Shiz overthrew and burned the cities.

Does this mean they were made of wood instead of cement and/or steel?

Ether 15 mentions the great war, where millions were killed.  From what I see, it lasted
8 days.  Verse 14 says they prepared four years for the battle.  Verses 15-29 details the 
days of battle.  Day 1 (v.15), day 2 (v. 17), day 3 (v. 20), day 4 (v. 21), day 5 (v. 23), 
day 6 (v. 24), day 7 (v. 27), day 8 (v. 29).

At the end of 8 days of battle, millions were killed and all but one survived?

Pete

3 Nephi 11;14-17 speaks of knowing, the fulfillment of their faith. They were brought to this point because of their faith in Him.

Why do you ask the question about Ether 12:7 – it would help me formulate my answer.

Answers to Ether 13:7, “No”; Ether 13:1, evidently "yes" since a similar thing is mentioned at least twice elsewhere (if slippery means being easily stolen in a lawless environment); Ether 14:7, “No."

Ether 14:10 in some cases the writers are speaking directly to the descendants of Lehi. Also, the seed of Joseph will take the lead in the New Jerusalem and the seed of Judah in the Old testament lands of inheritance. Of course the rest of the House of Israel and the Gentiles who join them in either locale are welcome and will have an inheritance with them.

Ether 15: No, you’ll have to read the other chapters where the casualties are tallied and you can estimate the longer timeframes that must have been involved. Also, the Book of Ether abridges a thousand years of history in a few pages, emphasizing a few spiritually-instructional accounts. Also, Ether only recorded what he saw (e.g. Coriantumr as the last survivor) as well as whatever historical knowledge and insight he possessed and thought worth passing on.

Edited by CV75
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On 11/27/2020 at 9:20 PM, TheTanakas said:

Ether 14:17 says that Shiz overthrew and burned the cities.

Does this mean they were made of wood instead of cement and/or steel?

One would pretty much have to assume that the cities that were burned were made primarily of some type of combustible material, wood being the most likely. The Book of Mormon only notes that the Nephites who migrated into the lands northward built cities using cement because of a dearth of trees in at least some of the areas. Check out Helaman chapter 3.

Glenn

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On 11/27/2020 at 7:20 PM, TheTanakas said:

Ether 14:17 says that Shiz overthrew and burned the cities.

Does this mean they were made of wood instead of cement and/or steel?

I don't think you can assume that the cities were all wood simply because they were "burned".  Consider this text from 2 Kings 25:8-9 regarding the destruction of Jerusalem:

Quote

8  And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:  9  And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.  (2 Kings 25:8-9)

Now look at the photos in this archaeological article on Uncovering Zedekiah’s Destroyed City, and read what it says in the text:

Quote

But it was during more recent excavations into the more ancient, Iron Age layers of the site where archaeologists Yuval Gadot of Tel Aviv University and Yiftah Shalev of the Israel Antiquities Authority and their team discovered the remains of what was interpreted as a large public building, showing evidence of a fiery destruction in the sixth century BCE – likely, they suggest, from the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BCE. They uncovered stone debris, burnt wooden beams, and charred pottery shards.....

 

“For archaeologists, an ashen layer can mean a number of different things,” said Gibson in a report about the finds in the UNC Charlotte article, published on August 11. “It could be ashy deposits removed from ovens; or it could be localized burning of garbage. However, in this case, the combination of an ashy layer full of artifacts, mixed with arrowheads, and a very special ornament indicates some kind of devastation and destruction. Nobody abandons golden jewelry and nobody has arrowheads in their domestic refuse.”

 

givati2-768x512.jpeg

mountziondigcover-768x637.jpg

So cities can be "burned" even if they aren't all made of wood.

 

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On 11/27/2020 at 7:20 PM, TheTanakas said:

I had some questions on this section of the manual.  Rather than break it up into individual
threads, I hope its ok to include all in one to make it simpler.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf

This section covers Ether, chapters 12-15.  Many events were skipped over but I noticed
them when my family and I were reading the chapters. 

Ether 12:7 said  "For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after 
he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had 
faith in him
".  

But this is not how Nephi recorded it. The people in the land of Bountiful didn't 
believe it was Jesus until after they saw him and felt his body (3 Nephi 11-14-17).
  
Ether 12:30 said "For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove-and it 
was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest 
after men have faith
".  

Where was it moved to?  Or did the mountain just disappear?

Ether 13:7 said the "Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of 
Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not
"

Does this mean that no descendants of Joseph were exiled to Babylonian captivity or remained
alive in Jerusalem?

Ether 14:1 said "And now there began to be a great curse upon all the land because of 
the iniquity of the people, in which, if a man should lay his tool or his sword upon 
his shelf, or upon the place whither he would keep it, behold, upon the morrow, he could 
not find it, so great was the curse upon the land
".

Has this ever happened anywhere else in the Book of Mormon? 
  
Ether 14:10 said "And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, 
for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they 
who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel
".

Why is there no mention of the residents being members of the seed of other tribes?

Ether 14:17 says that Shiz overthrew and burned the cities.

Does this mean they were made of wood instead of cement and/or steel?

Ether 15 mentions the great war, where millions were killed.  From what I see, it lasted
8 days.  Verse 14 says they prepared four years for the battle.  Verses 15-29 details the 
days of battle.  Day 1 (v.15), day 2 (v. 17), day 3 (v. 20), day 4 (v. 21), day 5 (v. 23), 
day 6 (v. 24), day 7 (v. 27), day 8 (v. 29).

At the end of 8 days of battle, millions were killed and all but one survived?

Pete

Great questions.

I want to caution you as I often take the opportunity to caution anyone on the same matter. Scriptures (Book of Mormon, Bible, Quran, etc) aren't true or valuable or 'a feast' because they are reconcilable. Lots and lots and lots of things don't make sense and match up within the scriptures. You'll find many contradictions. Many reject the scriptures when they become defeated in their inability to reconcile everything all together, as if that was the promise the scriptures held out. "We promise you," the scriptures say (do NOT say), "that we are completely reconcilable and through this reconciliation you will be saved." NOT. NOT! I'm not saying that you are rejecting the scriptures, but I see you here reaching for reconciliation, and don't worry if you never do manage to have it all line up in perfect sense. It doesn't mean you've missed the truth or the food that is there, the salvation that is there, the living water that is there.

In fact, it is in the very cracks of the scriptures where they don't match up that I often fall down a deep hole of revelation and feast to the degree that most of the scripture I read when I open the books isn't even what is written in English on the page. There's a set of scriptures between the lines of what is written.

Going along with that, and despite appearances since they seem to be ancient stories, the scriptures (Book of Mormon et al) are not meant to be descriptions of the past or the future, nor to provide a historical timeline of any kind. They specifically relate to YOUR PROGRESSION, RIGHT NOW. Every single word, verse, story, chapter, book. YOUR REDEMPTION AND PROGRESSION. There is very little worth in them otherwise. These progressions aren't always or almost never are ethical proscriptions, but they are literally maps or patterns that we have the capacity to move from one to the other and become new creatures. And the maps aren't all in order. The reveal themselves to you over time of deep study--where a single phrase in the Doctrine in Covenants goes along with a section of, say, Habbakuk which is blown wide open when you hear a particular story of the life of Lord Krishna and sets you to laughing and changes the cells in your body when you see the very same thing, plain as day, in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And then you see it taking place in real time with real human beings.

Having said that, let me make some notes on the things you are curious about. Obviously, I don't have complete answers, because they can only come to you as YOUR answers for YOU. Ether is HIGHLY symbolic, HIGHLY. Not low or medium symbolic. HIGH. Ether is not the beginner's map.

verse 7 note: any time the scriptures speak of the visitation of Christ, this is not particularly a historical timeline appearance, but a progression in YOU: the visitation of CHRIST that you will experience;

note on faith: scriptural faith is NOT a fervency of desire and believing--faith IS creation; namely the becoming of YOU and then further as you bless your loved ones and your community until we all come to Zion

note on the houses: they were nomadic tents, so flammable

note on the story of Shiz and Coriantumr: this story was added as a second witness to the message Mormon wanted to make with the Book of Mormon; Moroni added the story, continuing his father's mission. They both had watched their civilization fall to uninterrupted bloodshed; and Moroni showed another story where something happened like it; and the point is to urge us not to do the same.

note on the mountain:

 

Edited by Maidservant
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I recently wrote this bit about the Shiz/Coriantumr story etc.:

///////////////////////////////////

The Book of Mormon is the parable presentation of two societies whose end became complete destruction with only one man left alive.

In one example, the man was the individual who "won". He was the last man standing after killing the second-to-last-man standing. He looked out on vast fields of dead and rotting human beings. The armies had been kin of the same nation with their main point of conflict being blood revenge rules (stupid!) and fighting over which of the ruling class would be their tyrant--which flavor of oppression they preferred better. That man regretted his own indulgences of doing whatever was necessary to live a victory life (that's not what he got!), but it was too late. He lived to an old age as a broken-hearted relic in another community that took him in.

In the other example, the man last left had reluctantly participated as a general in the fighting since his family (ancestry) were military men; even though he also tried to be a man of God. He had to fight not so much in defense, but because their own people were trigger happy on the offense and were hungry for war; enmity that was a remnant of a hundreds-year-old narrative that had probably lost accuracy and nuance whilst increasing in grievance and hatred; and that had begun in the mists of history with brothers that couldn't learn to love each other. He felt a loyalty to the same name/nation they were under, so at first he fought. He eventually made the choice to stop fighting which made running, wandering, and hiding his only other choice; which lonely and dangerous existence he lived out the rest of his days.

"They were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds . . . They were drunken with anger, even as a man who is drunken with wine; and they slept . . . upon their swords." Ether 15:19-22

How drunk are you with anger? Are you sleeping on your sword? How attached are you to your narrative of enmity that you inherited from generations before?

The reason there are two stories like this in the Book of Mormon is to warn us not to become the third.

"Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity? . . . The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these THY BRETHREN . . . I have said that they should love one another . . . but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood." (The Book of Moses 7:28-33, Pearl of Great Price)

Are you still buying up armies and navies with the desires of your heart or the consents of your ignorance, so that blood and horror may reign on the earth?

Or are you willing to release your enmity, know your brethren affectionately, and become a Christ?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Only One Left SMALLER.jpg

Forgiveness.jpg

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