stemelbow Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Vengeance is the LAST thing God is about! When you are teaching little children, sometimes they need to experience the natural consequences of their actions. His "vengeance" is not from Him- we get to create our own hell AND heaven, but in the end, if we do our best to quit messing up, He makes up all the difference out of pure love. God suggests vengeance should never be except by him. That would suggest the opposite of it is the LAST thing God is about. Its true though, most people don't really believe in the god of scripture. That's a silly concept of God. He's the one who is vengeance and is not about pure love at all.
mfbukowski Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 29 minutes ago, Ahab said: The blanket statement that separation is a form of punishment. Period. What you said here that I am quoting sounds much better to me and is more factually correct because you are stating both views, with its opposite, together. We should always realize that everything can be viewed with an opposite view by those who disagree with a particular point of view. As Obi Wan Kenobi said, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. And it is that way with good and evil too. What someone would call good is what someone else would call evil, and in a sense it is both when viewed from both points of view. Just as what some people would say is inclusive is what some other people would call exclusive. Every perspective we get is from a particular point of view. Good stuff, but who actually wrote this? 👍 🤓 1
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Good stuff, but who actually wrote this? 👍 🤓 I think its safe to say that I have not been the only person to say something like that, and I'm sure there have always been people who have agreed with the idea as well as disagreed with it. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, stemelbow said: God suggests vengeance should never be except by him. That would suggest the opposite of it is the LAST thing God is about. Its true though, most people don't really believe in the god of scripture. That's a silly concept of God. He's the one who is vengeance and is not about pure love at all. Sorry, I don't understand any of this.? "God suggests vengeance should never be except by him." Huh? All that says is "Thou shalt not take vengeance, leave it to me to judge others" You take that to mean that his whole mission is vengeance? Uh, strongly disagree. Semantic confusion. "That would suggest the opposite of it is the LAST thing God is about." How exactly does it "suggest" that? The opposite of what? What do you mean by saying God is "about" anything? Just jumbled words, sorry I am not understanding. "That's a silly concept of God." I am not sure WHAT exactly is a silly concept. It might help if you state clearly in a full sentence what position you find "silly" when stated it to be about God. "He's the one who is vengeance and is not about pure love at all. " Sorry, I presume this is kind of a conclusion, but I am not following. Seriously. If you want to discuss this I am willing but I will do my best to be logical about it all, and logic requires clear definitions and semantics. I don't want to play games throwing out one liners- we have all had enough of that this week- - it could be a good serious theological discussion I think if only we could define things a little better. God's vengeance or lack thereof could be an important topic I think 3
mfbukowski Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: I think its safe to say that I have not been the only person to say something like that, and I'm sure there have always been people who have agreed with the idea as well as disagreed with it. Dang. You squeezed another rep point out of me. I must be getting soft in my old age.
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 27 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Jesus seems to be saying you have to do things the right way. Even if you cast out devils or prophesy, seek Jesus and all of that, it's simply not good enough. That's the message as given. Of course you can read whatever you like into it. And to be honest, either ways it's making God look silly. He plainly called them workers of iniquity, other translations use "evil doers", "wicked people", workers of lawlessness", "law breakers". I simply gave one example of that. He is talking about two-faced people. Whited sepulchers that are full or rotting nastiness. You are misinterpreting it if you think he is talking about people acting in good faith.
The Nehor Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, pogi said: He plainly called them workers of iniquity, other translations use "evil doers", "wicked people", workers of lawlessness", "law breakers". I simply gave one example of that. He is talking about two-faced people. Whited sepulchers that are full or rotting nastiness. You are misinterpreting it if you think he is talking about people acting in good faith. Yep. He is talking about me.
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 36 minutes ago, Ahab said: Isn't everything you think about obvious to you? Who do you ever say anything? I hope it is because you want to try to get a point across to some other person. A thought that is right there in your mind and obvious to you which you think at least might be useful for someone else to think about. A thought you think you might need to use words to try to communicate to them so that they can think of what you are thinking about. Let's try this, as an experiment. The next time you say something realize that someone else may not think the opposite of what you are saying. The fact that everything has its opposite should be obvious to you since there is always an opposite view of whatever anyone is talking about. So if you had said separation is a reward instead of saying it is a punishment do you think it should have been obvious to everyone that it is both when viewed from both perspectives? Or do you think maybe it will be obvious that you are saying only what you are saying and not saying what you are not saying? Answer the question. Did you really think that I was saying that separation is a form of punishment for righteous people? Do I also need to say that the number 3 is not the number 4, nor is it 5, 6, or 7...?
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yep. He is talking about me. I knew you were a fraud!
The Nehor Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: I knew you were a fraud! No, just double-minded. If I was a fraud I would lead others to believe I am not.
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: No,...If I was a fraud I would lead others to believe I am not. Which is exactly what you are doing now. Fraud! We are all double minded to some degree. Christ's harsh language here is not about those who try in good faith to reach towards heaven, but who also indulge at times in sin, then repent, and try again.
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 31 minutes ago, stemelbow said: God suggests vengeance should never be except by him. He didn't actually say that though, did he. (a rhetorical question). He did not use the words you have used. So he didn't actually suggest what you say he suggested. You are bearing a false witness, again, and against God. Please stop it. 31 minutes ago, stemelbow said: That would suggest the opposite of it is the LAST thing God is about. Just use the same words God used. "Vengeance is mine and I will repay" is one translation. All that suggests is that vengeance is a godly action, something God does, and that God will exact vengeance on whomever he exacts vengeance on. 31 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Its true though, most people don't really believe in the god of scripture. That's a silly concept of God. He's the one who is vengeance and is not about pure love at all. You have a nasty habit of making false statements about God, bearing a false witness against him, and saying things that are not true. Pure love is also something you don't understand correctly.
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, pogi said: Answer the question. Did you really think that I was saying that separation is a form of punishment for righteous people? No you did not use those words. You also did not say separation is a reward until after I told you it was. Your words are right there for all who can see to see. You said only what you said and did not say what you did not say. 13 minutes ago, pogi said: Do I also need to say that the number 3 is not the number 4, nor is it 5, 6, or 7...? If that is something you want me to say you said, then yes, you do. I'm only going to give you credit for what you say, not for what you do not say.
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ahab said: No you did not use those words. Did you assume that is what I meant or implied?
The Nehor Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, pogi said: Which is exactly what you are doing now. Fraud! We are all double minded to some degree. Christ's harsh language here is not about those who try in good faith to reach towards heaven, but who also indulge at times in sin, then repent, and try again. It is more that I want it both ways but yeah, I get it.
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, pogi said: Did you assume that is what I meant or implied? I'm the kind of person who prefers to avoid making assumptions, preferring instead to try to understand what people mean based on how I understand the words they use to say something. So no, I did not think you meant or implied anything other than what you actually said based on my understanding of the words you used to say what you said. And I understood your point to be 'separation is a form of punishment' since that is all you were saying about what separation is. You didn't say anything other than that, in this thread, as far as I noticed, until I started saying what I was saying and I said what I said. Clear as punch for you now? Is the truth of what I saw and have been talking about obvious to you now?
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: I'm the kind of person who prefers to avoid making assumptions, preferring instead to try to understand what people mean based on how I understand the words they use to say something. So no, I did not think you meant or implied anything other than what you actually said based on my understanding of the words you used to say what you said. And I understood your point to be 'separation is a form of punishment' since that is all you were saying about what separation is. You didn't say anything other than that, in this thread, as far as I noticed, until I started saying what I was saying and I said what I said. Clear as punch for you now? Is the truth of what I saw and have been talking about obvious to you now? What I said was true. It is a form of punishment. Before seeking clarity and context (which I thought was obvious), you simply assumed that I meant that it is a form of punishment for the righteous and the wicked (which I never said), which is why you disagreed with me. We in fact believe the same thing, but you disagreed with my comment because you assumed something before seeking clarity and context - which should have been a given, or else you must think I am an idiot. Clear as punch now? Edited October 1, 2020 by pogi
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, pogi said: What I said was true. It is a form of punishment. Before seeking clarity and context (which I thought was obvious), you simply assumed that I meant that it is a form of punishment for the righteous and the wicked (which I never said), which is why you disagreed with me. We in fact believe the same thing, but you disagreed with my comment because you assumed something before seeking clarity and context - which should have been a given, or else you must think I am an idiot. Clear as punch now? Yes, separation is a form of punishment, when viewed from a particular perspective. Separation is also a form of reward, which is what I was trying to emphasize from the perspective I had in mind when I said what I said. I actually looked back to track this down and my comment can be found on page 4 of this thread, just above the middle of that page. You said to stemelbow: Separation from others is not punishment? Isn't that exactly what God's judgment is all about - separation? And I then said what I said about separation not being a form of punishment but instead a form of reward. And then I started talking about how something is perceived to be what it is based on a particular perspective and how from opposing views something is perceived to be not something but instead something else. And here we are still talking about what we have been talking about, each from our own perspective, while in the process of examining our perspectives, and we're still asking if the other can see what we think should be obvious. Clear as punch to you yet? For something that I see as obvious it's amazing to me that we may not be on the same page yet.
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Ahab said: Yes, separation is a form of punishment when viewed from a particular perspective... Face palm! Then why did you make it a point to disagree with me, if what I said was true, and in fact you do agree with me? The unaware troll strikes again! The fact that separation from the wicked can also be viewed as a reward to the righteous doesn't make my comment any less true. It simply has nothing to do with the point I was making though. Edited October 1, 2020 by pogi
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: No, just double-minded. If I was a fraud I would lead others to believe I am not. I think you may be thinking about role playing rather than having a double mind. Sometimes you role play as The Nehor and at other times you put on a costume to go out and fight crime. I'm sure you still have the same mind regardless of what role you are playing. A double-minded person is someone who actually changes his or her mind on occasions, thinking one way sometimes and then doing a mental flip-flop at other times, and then flip-flopping again, and again, and again, and again... frequently in contradiction.
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, pogi said: Face palm! Then why did you make it a point to disagree with me, if what I said was true, and in fact you do agree with me? The unaware troll strikes again! The fact that separation from the wicked can also be viewed as a reward to the righteous doesn't make my comment any less true. It simply has nothing to do with the point I was making though. You didn't specify ...to the righteous or ...to the wicked... originally. You simply said "separation is punishment". Period. And then I engaged you on that point because from my perspective at that time what you stated was WRONG. And what you said is still wrong from that perspective where I was when I said what I said. Separation is not punishment (period) Separation is punishment to the wicked when viewed from a particular perspective, but making a blanket statement that "separation is punishment" while not adding any qualifiers or clarifying statements is not a complete view of reality. Do you see what is obvious to me yet?
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, pogi said: Oh. my. gosh. Dude, you have got to stop messing with people. And leave you alone? To do what you do? Without doing anything to try to stop you or correct you? Then I wouldn't be having as much fun as I am having with you now. No thank you.
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ahab said: You didn't specify That's right, you just assumed that because I didn't specify, that I meant that it is a punishment (period) for everyone, regardless! I never said that though, did I? You just assumed it. Which can only lead me to conclude that you think I am an idiot or something. Because only an idiot would come to that conclusion. Clearly it is not a punishment for the righteous. That is a given that doesn't even need to be stated. You don't give people the benefit of the doubt Ahab. You need to start trying.
pogi Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 35 minutes ago, Ahab said: And leave you alone? To do what you do? Without doing anything to try to stop you or correct you? Then I wouldn't be having as much fun as I am having with you now. No thank you. Troll on, Ahab. Troll on.
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