The Lost 116 Pages: Additional Information

[DonBradley]

Friends,

For various reasons, not all the information I've put together on the lost 116 pages was able to be put in my book. For that reason, and because I have a real sense of mission in sharing with others research that has impacted my life and my understanding of the Restoration (this research, along with my intertwining discoveries on the First Vision, were what initiated my return to the church), I'd like to share more of my findings beyond just the covers of my book.

So I've opened this thread to announce that I'm starting a Facebook page to share information on the lost 116 pages, and also to solicit your suggestions of what I should share on that page.

Here is what I've come up with so far to share:

1. The book's preview chapters
2. A chapter excerpt published in Interpreter, "A Passover setting for Lehi's Exodus."
3. Links to new podcasts that tell things from the book along with additional information on the lost 116 pages
4. Illustrations of the Jaredite interpreters
5. The Aztec calendar that was reportedly similar to the Anthon transcript
6. Pieces of material that didn't make it into this edition of the book, including...
7. An illustration of how the interpreters aligned with the symbols engraved on top of the plates
8. An illustration of the all-seeing eye in the relation to the translation process via the interpreters
9. The photograph of an 1844 Ottoman passport, a type of document to which the Anthon transcript was said to be similar
10. An explanation of how Joseph Smith's use of his beaver skin hat in the translation process relates to precedents in the Hebrew Bible and the lost pages

Any other suggestions for what I should post?

Feel free to share suggestions here, or go to the "The Lost 116 Pages: Reconstructing the Book of Mormon's Missing Stories" page and offer your input there.

You can stay up on all these things by "liking" or "following" the page!

Any input on this would be very appreciated! 😃

Don

[Calm]

Shared with FairMormon.

[DonBradley]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

Shared with FairMormon.

Shared how?

[Calm]

I posted it to our internal discussion list.

I am not involved in the Facebook side of things so not sure we do this kind of stuff (I tend to avoid Facebook), but could ask them to share it if you would like.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Calm

[DonBradley]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

I posted it to our internal discussion list.

I am not involved in the Facebook side of things so not sure we do this kind of stuff (I tend to avoid Facebook), but could ask them to share it if you would like.

Ah--nice!

Thanks so much!

Don

[DonBradley]

Also, Calm, I just tried to private message you, but the system says you can't receive messages, possibly because of settings or a full inbox?

Don

Edited November 30, 2019 by DonBradley

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, DonBradley said:

Any other suggestions for what I should post?

Even though Martin Harris' travels to the east were previous to the translation of the Book of Lehi, I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on his encounters with Bradish, Mitchill, Anthon and whoever else he might have shown the transcript. 

There seems to be agreement between those that saw the earliest transcript that the characters resembled Arabic. I assume the Ottoman pass that Bradish compared to the transcript was at least partly in Arabic?

[DonBradley]

19 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Even though Martin Harris' travels to the east were previous to the translation of the Book of Lehi, I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on his encounters with Bradish, Mitchill, Anthon and whoever else he might have shown the transcript. 

There seems to be agreement between those that saw the earliest transcript that the characters resembled Arabic. I assume the Ottoman pass that Bradish compared to the transcript was at least partly in Arabic?

Hey Rajah,

That's in the book! Chapter 2!

I didn't dwell too much on the Arabic connection, but it's there. I thought about calling it out a little more. But there is plenty of discussion of the sealed book and the Anthon incident.

Don

[Calm]

1 hour ago, DonBradley said:

Also, Calm, I just tried to private message you, but the system says you can't receive messages, possibly because of settings or a full inbox?

Don

It was full.  Made some room.

[DonBradley]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

It was full.  Made some room.

Cool - thanks! Sent!

[oremites]

10 hours ago, DonBradley said:

... this research, along with my intertwining discoveries on the First Vision, were what initiated my return to the church ...

Have you shared the story of your leaving/returning to the church anywhere that we could read or listen to?

Your book sounds fascinating.  Now I know what to tell people when they ask what I want for Christmas.

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, oremites said:

Have you shared the story of your leaving/returning to the church anywhere that we could read or listen to?

Your book sounds fascinating.  Now I know what to tell people when they ask what I want for Christmas.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/audio/Pillars_Bradley.mp3 Don probably has more times of describing his leaving/returning, but I thought it would be fun to share the one that I got to attend in person, and what an impact it had on me. 

This was given in 2012.

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Friends,

For various reasons, not all the information I've put together on the lost 116 pages was able to be put in my book. For that reason, and because I have a real sense of mission in sharing with others research that has impacted my life and my understanding of the Restoration (this research, along with my intertwining discoveries on the First Vision, were what initiated my return to the church), I'd like to share more of my findings beyond just the covers of my book.

So I've opened this thread to announce that I'm starting a Facebook page to share information on the lost 116 pages, and also to solicit your suggestions of what I should share on that page.

Here is what I've come up with so far to share:

1. The book's preview chapters
2. A chapter excerpt published in Interpreter, "A Passover setting for Lehi's Exodus."
3. Links to new podcasts that tell things from the book along with additional information on the lost 116 pages
4. Illustrations of the Jaredite interpreters
5. The Aztec calendar that was reportedly similar to the Anthon transcript
6. Pieces of material that didn't make it into this edition of the book, including...
7. An illustration of how the interpreters aligned with the symbols engraved on top of the plates
8. An illustration of the all-seeing eye in the relation to the translation process via the interpreters
9. The photograph of an 1844 Ottoman passport, a type of document to which the Anthon transcript was said to be similar
10. An explanation of how Joseph Smith's use of his beaver skin hat in the translation process relates to precedents in the Hebrew Bible and the lost pages

Any other suggestions for what I should post?

Feel free to share suggestions here, or go to the "The Lost 116 Pages: Reconstructing the Book of Mormon's Missing Stories" page and offer your input there.

You can stay up on all these things by "liking" or "following" the page!

Any input on this would be very appreciated! 😃

Don

Done!

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/audio/Pillars_Bradley.mp3 Don probably has more times of describing his leaving/returning, but I thought it would be fun to share the one that I got to attend in person, and what an impact it had on me. 

This was given in 2012.

Thanks for that link.

[Calm]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/audio/Pillars_Bradley.mp3 Don probably has more times of describing his leaving/returning, but I thought it would be fun to share the one that I got to attend in person, and what an impact it had on me. 

This was given in 2012.

Here is another one:  https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2012/11/28/keeping-the-faith-5a-don-bradley-seeing-with-an-eye-of-faith-pt-1

There was a thread on this board where he talked about it, but can’t find it. 

[readstoomuch]

Don,

I am only towards the beginning of the book, but I am getting the impression that it is going to be a real game changer in Book of Mormon studies.  There is definitely a new way of looking at Lehi and how he formed a new covenant people in the Promised Land.  I have previously read about how Lehi`s journey was a recapitulation of Israel `s journey to the promised land.  There is much more in your book.  Not sure I can explain it yet..  

The Book of Mormon and the translation process has more to do with the eventual temple ritual and symbols than one would have thought.  I wish I could tell you what more I would like to see discussed, but I think I need to read the book and digest it before I could tell you.  I have always appreciated Don and his story is inspiring to me.  It gives me hope when I see my children or others struggle.  Maybe I can say more in a week or two.  Thanks Don.  

[InCognitus]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Here is another one:  https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2012/11/28/keeping-the-faith-5a-don-bradley-seeing-with-an-eye-of-faith-pt-1

There was a thread on this board where he talked about it, but can’t find it. 

Thanks again.  I have a personal need to understand why people leave the church and more importantly why they return.

And, I actually look forward to the 10+ hour drive to and from Utah because I pack my MP3 player with good and interesting things to listen to.  I'm going back home tomorrow.  I listened to the BYU Studies New Testament conference on the book of Hebrews on the way here.  

[Ahab]

On 12/1/2019 at 8:54 AM, InCognitus said:

Thanks again.  I have a personal need to understand why people leave the church and more importantly why they return.

There are many reasons and you can logically deduce each one, but they all boil down to two basic causes.  Leaving the Church involves members removing their names from the membership rolls of the Church, or someone in authority removing their names from the rolls when they choose to excommunicate them as members, so either way it's a lack of faith to assure them the Church is what it is and/or their unwillingness to abide by the laws of God even while knowing the Church is what it is.  So basically it's because they don't have a testimony from God about the Church or they do have a testimony from God and choose to be in open rebellion while knowing what they are rebelling against.  It's a sad state of affairs, emotionally, but intellectually it is easy to understand.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

There are many reasons and you can logically deduce each one, but they all boil down to two basic causes.  Leaving the Church involves members removing their names from the membership rolls of the Church, or someone in authority removing their names from the rolls when they choose to excommunicate them as members, so either way it's a lack of faith to assure them the Church is what it is and/or their unwillingness to abide by the laws of God even while knowing the Church is what it is.  So basically it's because they don't have a testimony from God about the Church or they do have a testimony from God and choose to be in open rebellion while knowing what they are rebelling against.  It's a sad state of affairs, emotionally, but intellectually it is easy to understand.

I'm learning that it is way more complex than what you say above, and it's different for everyone.

Listening to Don's story was extremely helpful to me, especially the long interview on the FAIR blog, because he got into some specifics that helped me understand the process he went through (I'm just annoyed with myself for not noticing that there are four parts to that interview, and I only downloaded the first one for my trip home from Utah, so I only know part of that story so far! ).  I like that he got into some specifics because people rarely share those things, either because the reasons are too personal, or for fear of shaking someone else's testimony, or for fear that someone might say, "You left because of THAT? Really?" (a really bad thing to do), or whatever other reason.   I'm really glad he shared what he did there because that's always the part that is a mystery to me.   But there were two other Youtube videos that I listened to yesterday that helped me see the diverse and complex reasons that people may leave the church:

1. The Loss and Rekindling of Faith, with Don Bradley, Janet Eyring, and Maxine Hanks:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hnrRJtE644
2. Barriers to Belief: Mental Distress and Disaffection from the Church - 2018 FairMormon Conference:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3irFCZPfCnc

The first one on the list above demonstrates quite well that each person's reasons are different.  The second one explains quite well why people approach these things differently, and there may be personality and psychological reasons for the differences.  ALL of these have given me a better view of why people may leave, and I'm never again going to try to assume it is one thing or another based on basic stereotypes.   I have a lot more to learn.   But it helps me have a greater compassion for their situation.  We all need to have greater compassion and love, on both sides of this issue.

Edited December 3, 2019 by InCognitus

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I'm learning that it is way more complex than what you say above, and it's different for everyone.

Listening to Don's story was extremely helpful to me, especially the long interview on the FAIR blog, because he got into some specifics that helped me understand the process he went through (I'm just annoyed with myself for not noticing that there are four parts to that interview, and I only downloaded the first one for my trip home from Utah, so I only know part of that story so far! ).  I like that he got into some specifics because people rarely share those things, either because the reasons are too personal, or for fear of shaking someone else's testimony, or for fear that someone might say, "You left because of THAT? Really?" (a really bad thing to do), or whatever other reason.   I'm really glad he shared what he did there because that's always the part that is a mystery to me.   But there were two other Youtube videos that I listened to yesterday that helped me see the diverse and complex reasons that people may leave the church:

1. The Loss and Rekindling of Faith, with Don Bradley, Janet Eyring, and Maxine Hanks:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hnrRJtE644
2. Barriers to Belief: Mental Distress and Disaffection from the Church - 2018 FairMormon Conference:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3irFCZPfCnc

The first one on the list above demonstrates quite well that each person's reasons are different.  The second one explains quite well why people approach these things differently, and there may be personality and psychological reasons for the differences.  ALL of these have given me a better view of why people may leave, and I'm never again going to try to assume it is one thing or another based on basic stereotypes.   I have a lot more to learn.   But it helps me have a greater compassion for their situation.  WE all need to have greater compassion and love, on both sides of this issue.

I'd appreciate it if you would mention one thing that doesn't fit into one of the 2 basic categories I mentioned.  And notice that I understood you to be talking about people who leave the Church, rather than simply being less active as members, because that's what you said.

[InCognitus]

23 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I'd appreciate it if you would mention one thing that doesn't fit into one of the 2 basic categories I mentioned.  And notice that I understood you to be talking about people who leave the Church, rather than simply being less active as members, because that's what you said.

You gave these two reasons that people "leave" as I understand them (quoted from above with my numbering added) : "So basically it's because [1] they don't have a testimony from God about the Church or [2] they do have a testimony from God and choose to be in open rebellion while knowing what they are rebelling against."

One thing:  In Don's story it is clear he had a testimony.  He shared two clear examples of spiritual experiences and confirmation of the truth of the church.  But later when he was faced with some historical things he couldn't explain, he started asking questions differently (i.e. about the motives of Joseph Smith) and that led him to question if his spiritual experiences had come from God or if they were self generated, based on his own feelings.  That led him to view everything differently.  There was no rebellion, it was simply a process of thinking that led him away from the church.  

Another thing:  The transcript to the second video I shared above is found here:   https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2018/barriers-to-belief.  In it you'll find many examples and situations where it shows how people process information differently.  Some people leave, others stay, even when they have or once had a testimony.  One example from the transcript:

Quote

Our Church expects us to be social. We are expected to speak and pray in Church, to teach lessons, read things aloud, answer questions in class, call people on the phone, and we are sometimes asked to knock on the doors of strangers and ask them if they are willing to drastically change their lives. These are difficult things for anyone to do, but they can be among the hardest things to do, or simply impossible, when someone experiences an anxiety disorder. Someone may be sitting in the lobby during sacrament meeting because they find it difficult to be in a room with a large group. Or someone may go home after sacrament meeting because they feel worn out after spending an hour in a crowd of people and they need to take a break. We may wrongfully assume they have a weak testimony. As a consequence, we may begin to treat such a person as one who lacks faith or who has repudiated us and our faith. If that person begins to experience a sense of rejection, they may further distance themselves from members of the Church, they may seek out more supportive communities, or tragically, may simply suffer in isolation. It is not hard to imagine how this kind of separation from members of the Church and Church activity can ultimately result in a loss of testimony.

 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

You gave these two reasons that people "leave" as I understand them (quoted from above with my numbering added) : "So basically it's because [1] they don't have a testimony from God about the Church or [2] they do have a testimony from God and choose to be in open rebellion while knowing what they are rebelling against."

One thing:  In Don's story it is clear he had a testimony.  He shared two clear examples of spiritual experiences and confirmation of the truth of the church.  But later when he was faced with some historical things he couldn't explain, he started asking questions differently (i.e. about the motives of Joseph Smith) and that led him to question if his spiritual experiences had come from God or if they were self generated, based on his own feelings.  That led him to view everything differently.  There was no rebellion, it was simply a process of thinking that led him away from the church.  

That would be what I would call "losing" his testimony, at best.  He said he had a testimony, earlier, but then he said he viewed everything differently.  I don't think he would have left the Church if he knew that it is what it is.  He left the Church because he didn't have faith from God to assure him that it is what it is.  That is how I would classify that change in view.  He may have known before but at the point he left he didn't have that, otherwise why would he have left it?

 

That other example you cited was an illustration of how a testimony could be lost.  When it is lost the person doesn't have it anymore.  So they leave because they don't have a testimony of what the Church is.  Even if they may have known before.

 

[DonBradley]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

 We all need to have greater compassion and love, on both sides of this issue.

Yes!!! 😊

[InCognitus]

43 minutes ago, Ahab said:

That would be what I would call "losing" his testimony, at best.  He said he had a testimony, earlier, but then he said he viewed everything differently.  I don't think he would have left the Church if he knew that it is what it is.  He left the Church because he didn't have faith from God to assure him that it is what it is.  That is how I would classify that change in view.  He may have known before but at the point he left he didn't have that, otherwise why would he have left it?

 

That other example you cited was an illustration of how a testimony could be lost.  When it is lost the person doesn't have it anymore.  So they leave because they don't have a testimony of what the Church is.  Even if they may have known before.

 

We are apparently talking about two different things here.  You seem to be talking about the very moment in time that the person submits their resignation letter, and I'm talking about the process that leads them to that point.  It is the latter that I'm trying to understand better.

Edited December 3, 2019 by InCognitus

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

We are apparently talking about two different things here.  You seem to be talking about the very moment in time that the person submits their resignation letter, and I'm talking about the process that leads them to that point.  It is the latter that I'm trying to understand better.

Oh, okay, I think I see now.  So I would say you are trying to understand what makes people lose their testimonies, if they have one. And there is only one basic cause for all of the many sub reasons.  Because they lean more on the arm of flesh (mortals) than on what God has told them.

That's the only reason someone would lose, or reject, what God has told them or assured them is true.  They either rely on their own reasoning, alone, thinking they know better than God does about something, or they think other people know better than what God has told them.

To not ever lose or reject or disregard a testimony from God we need to stick to what God has told us, rather than allowing ourselves or to let other people lead us astray from what God has told us. 

But that applies only to people who have a testimony from God, otherwise we need to get one first, and then never lose it or reject it or disregard it.