No Heavenly Mother

[SettingDogStar]

42 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Completely disagree with everything you said here.  Christ cannot fulfill all righteousness without obeying all law and the laws preexist Christ as the temple clearly states.

And Christ Himself. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Heh heh.  You do like to be funny don't you.  And as I'm sure you know when you are serious, nobody authored the gospel and if you're talking about who was the first person to tell us about it that was either our Father or our Mother in heaven.

And we all are to obey his laws if we want to receive any blessings from those laws which those blessings are predicated upon.

Nice job of playing the devil's advocate, though.  You seem like a natural at it.

No, I believe it. The plan was presented by the Son under the direction of the Father. We do have to follow the gospel.

39 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Completely disagree with everything you said here.  Christ cannot fulfill all righteousness without obeying all law and the laws preexist Christ as the temple clearly states.

The Laws of the Universe were followed. That is why He suffered and died but I suspect that this world is not normal. I believe things went differently here. This is the most wicked world. Why? I am not suggesting God was surprised but I believe in a unique way He and Jehovah compensated for the diversion.

If the normal plan of all worlds is for Adam and Eve to fall in transgression of God’s commandment about the fruit why would Lucifer be dumb enough to tempt them and if he was that dumb why did he think it would frustrate the plan? He was there when it was discussed.

 I only have a few bits of suspected knowledge. There is something off, not in a bad way of anything that would contradict the gospel as given but there is more to the story.

Or maybe I am a heretic with delusions. Definitely possible.

[SettingDogStar]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, I believe it. The plan was presented by the Son under the direction of the Father. We do have to follow the gospel.

The Laws of the Universe were followed. That is why He suffered and died but I suspect that this world is not normal. I believe things went differently here. This is the most wicked world. Why? I am not suggesting God was surprised but I believe in a unique way He and Jehovah compensated for the diversion.

If the normal plan of all worlds is for Adam and Eve to fall in transgression of God’s commandment about the fruit why would Lucifer be dumb enough to tempt them and if he was that dumb why did he think it would frustrate the plan? He was there when it was discussed.

 I only have a few bits of suspected knowledge. There is something off, not in a bad way of anything that would contradict the gospel as given but there is more to the story.

Or maybe I am a heretic with delusions. Definitely possible.

I’ve wondered that as well. Plus I’ve never agreed with the idea that God wanted them to listen to Satan. Sure they might have learned something, but that isn’t what God could want.

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I’ve wondered that as well. Plus I’ve never agreed with the idea that God wanted them to listen to Satan. Sure they might have learned something, but that isn’t what God could want.

Well, I think God kind of wanted them to listen. He let Lucifer in.

[SettingDogStar]

37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Well, I think God kind of wanted them to listen. He let Lucifer in.

Sure, but not listen to Lucifer. Which I think you agree with.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Sure, but not listen to Lucifer. Which I think you agree with.

I am not sure honestly.

[SettingDogStar]

58 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure honestly.

Interesting. So what do you think went down there? Obviously we don’t have all the details (maybe there was, in fact, a talking snake) so a lot of theories can be brought into play. Anything unique you think happened?

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If the normal plan of all worlds is for Adam and Eve to fall in transgression of God’s commandment about the fruit why would Lucifer be dumb enough to tempt them and if he was that dumb why did he think it would frustrate the plan? He was there when it was discussed.

He only did what was done on other worlds.

And remember he was also cast out of God's presence

Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

It's an assumption to say he was aware of the full plan.  Or perhaps he need us to be mortal and subject to temptation as much as God did.

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, Nofear said:

Pres. Nelson's talk resulted in a fair bit of fury and gnashing of teeth. What if Pres. Nelson is wrong? What if a male-female partnership is not required for exaltation? If so, it is perfectly possible we don't have one Heavenly Father but two of them. But, imagine the confusion if God tried to explain the concept of Heavenly Father A and Heavenly Father B. Easier just to keep it simple, eh.

And what of the Proclamation of the Family? Well, if the presiding high priest can be wrong about something as major as a basic requirement for exaltation, surely he and the rest of Christ's apostles can be wrong about The Family: A Proclamation to the World (who, according to some of those who hold this view, was written by a lawyer anyway).....................

Anyone can make any suggestion he wants about anything, and that seems to happen all the time among all the variegated humans on this planet.  So what?  Does that mean that all such mutually exclusive views are correct?  That is not logically possible.

However, this tendency to imagine every sort of possibility and to objectify it is the source of rampant denominationalism -- the ever increasing number of separate POVs.  As though all were equally real and substantial.  Is it even possible to know anything about anything for sure?   Is all knowledge entirely relative?  Are there only opinions, and no facts?  Can everyone design his imaginary world to suit himself and take that as absolutely true?  Is that where we find ourselves now?

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Interesting. So what do you think went down there? Obviously we don’t have all the details (maybe there was, in fact, a talking snake) so a lot of theories can be brought into play. Anything unique you think happened?

I wonder if the Garden isn’t the norm for worlds. Terrestrial beings progressing towards celestial glory. Partaking of the knowledge of good and evil is part of the process but is supposed to happen later when God commands it (thinking end of Millenium here). Lucifer shows up and then later defends himself saying this is what is done in other worlds but I suspect they fell not because of the fruit but because they disobeyed. He disingenuously says he was doing what was always done but did it in the “wrong” way by disobedience and thought he had destroyed the world?

This creates its own problems though. If Terrestrial to Celestial is the norm then why did our spirits go to a more fallen world? Did we fall before we were born? Volunteer? Was the whole thing some kind of rescue mission, a hack to the eternal plan where Jehovah and Michael and Eve threw away their easier path to exaltation to rescue us. Or someone else? Or the whole thing is rescuing those lost from some other world?How does the Savior’s atonement impact others worlds? Does this tie into the whole Israel thing? If a third part of the host of heaven that makes it possible that there are two other parts. Could they be two different kinds of spirits in different states?

Anyways, like I said, still trying to work it out. I keep thinking I am off track but the promptings I get are to keep looking. Not sure if I have any of it right though or am even on the right track.

[SettingDogStar]

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I wonder if the Garden isn’t the norm for worlds. Terrestrial beings progressing towards celestial glory. Partaking of the knowledge of good and evil is part of the process but is supposed to happen later when God commands it (thinking end of Millenium here). Lucifer shows up and then later defends himself saying this is what is done in other worlds but I suspect they fell not because of the fruit but because they disobeyed. He disingenuously says he was doing what was always done but did it in the “wrong” way by disobedience and thought he had destroyed the world?

This creates its own problems though. If Terrestrial to Celestial is the norm then why did our spirits go to a more fallen world? Did we fall before we were born? Volunteer? Was the whole thing some kind of rescue mission, a hack to the eternal plan where Jehovah and Michael and Eve threw away their easier path to exaltation to rescue us. Or someone else? Or the whole thing is rescuing those lost from some other world?How does the Savior’s atonement impact others worlds? Does this tie into the whole Israel thing? If a third part of the host of heaven that makes it possible that there are two other parts. Could they be two different kinds of spirits in different states?

Anyways, like I said, still trying to work it out. I keep thinking I am off track but the promptings I get are to keep looking. Not sure if I have any of it right though or am even on the right track.

I always liked the idea of the fruit being purposefully given to Adam and Eve when they were ready. God was resting, it was the Sabbath day. Had they waited until he proverbial Monday I think God would have handed it to them.

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I always liked the idea of the fruit being purposefully given to Adam and Eve when they were ready. God was resting, it was the Sabbath day. Had they waited until he proverbial Monday I think God would have handed it to them.

I suspect it is more that they were not at the right point of development. I keep coming back to the idea of Adam and Eve deciding before the world was formed to intentionally sabotage the process to rescue spirits lost or fallen somehow. They agreed to have Lucifer let in. Maybe they even agreed to have the tree there and it is normally not there from the start. Adam became as a little child but maybe Eve held onto some more memories? They agreed to sacrifice their paradise and their own standing (they earned their world) to dive down to hell and death to rescue fallen spirits who could not be born in their Terrestrial paradise. They hacked the whole plan (with the Father’s approval of course) and Jesus agreed to fix it and take full responsibility and even to atone for allowing this world to be. Lucifer thought he was destroying them but they wanted him to do it so they could bring mortality to those who otherwise would not have it.

There are still a lot of pieces missing and I still could be way off. I feel like I am the scummy narrator of a “Did Aliens build the Pyramids” ‘documentary’. Everything I am saying should have a question mark behind it and it is very tentative and speculative. I just do not know so no one talk about this in Fast and Testimony meeting and no, I am not writing a book or declaring myself prophet and breaking off!

Edited September 20, 2019 by The Nehor

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

RI wonder if the Garden isn’t the norm for worlds. Terrestrial beings progressing towards celestial glory. Partaking of the knowledge of good and evil is part of the process but is supposed to happen later when God commands it (thinking end of Millenium here). Lucifer shows up and then later defends himself saying this is what is done in other worlds but I suspect they fell not because of the fruit but because they disobeyed. He disingenuously says he was doing what was always done but did it in the “wrong” way by disobedience and thought he had destroyed the world?

This creates its own problems though. If Terrestrial to Celestial is the norm then why did our spirits go to a more fallen world? Did we fall before we were born? Volunteer? Was the whole thing some kind of rescue mission, a hack to the eternal plan where Jehovah and Michael and Eve threw away their easier path to exaltation to rescue us. Or someone else? Or the whole thing is rescuing those lost from some other world?How does the Savior’s atonement impact others worlds? Does this tie into the whole Israel thing? If a third part of the host of heaven that makes it possible that there are two other parts. Could they be two different kinds of spirits in different states?

Anyways, like I said, still trying to work it out. I keep thinking I am off track but the promptings I get are to keep looking. Not sure if I have any of it right though or am even on the right track.

I think it's good that you are asking those questions and I think you will eventually hear the right answers.  A lot of all this is learning about who we should listen to, and with a lack of knowledge of good and evil that can be difficult to figure out.

My understanding of the garden of Eden fiasco, well okay maybe not a fiasco since they could use some of those lemons to make some lemonade, was that Adam and Eve were put in a position where they didn't know WHO was good and WHO was evil.  I don't think they remembered or understood that our Father or our Lord were the good guys so when someone named "God" told them not to eat any fruit from the yonder there tree they didn't know that he was a good guy and giving them good advice.  I mean, how could they, since they didn't really know or remember what, or even who, was good.   

So some person called "God" said something like: Don't eat any fruit from that tree over there because if you do you are going to die!  But it's up to you, you can choose to eat some of it if you want to.  Just remember that I told you that if you do you are going to die!" 

And then some other other guy came along and said something like:   No no, no, you won't die if you eat some of that fruit from that tree! That "God" person just doesn't want you to know what good or evil is since then you would become more like him!". 

And then Eve thought something like;  Hmm, I like what that second guy said.  It sounded pretty good to me!  I would like to become more like that "God" person so I am going to eat some of that fruit from that tree! And she got Adam to eat some of it too.

And then when they saw that second guy again they remembered he was the bad guy who had been cast down here for rebelling against our Father in heaven.  Until then, they hadn't remembered that he was the bad guy.

And they also remembered who the God person was, and when they heard him coming they felt ashamed and hid.

It wasn't until after they had eaten some of that fruit from that tree that they knew who was good and who was evil, and what good and evil were too.  When you don't know the difference something can sound good but turn out to be a bad thing.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ahab

[CV75]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:14 PM, Nofear said:

Indeed, the OP does *not* reflect my personal position

Yes, that is why I put "you" in quotation marks.