So how do we become community for everyone?

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I am by nature rather closed. It has nothing to do with my religious faith. I'm just rather self-contained, and I might be somewhere on the autism spectrum.  I had friends of course, growing up, but in adulthood, while I can say that I have good acquaintances, my only true friend is my wife. I should say, wives, since my late wife was my only true friend, as is my current wife.  I don't "hang" out with people. 

So, for me to take Elder Uchtdorf's advice to be more "open", I guess this would mean that I start interacting with my neighbors, making actual non-spousal friendships, and so on.  Yech!  I go out occasionally among "the English", and I even enjoy interacting with them, having conversations, but I don't take it any further.  Maybe I need to extend my stride on this.  I'll think about it.

Oddly enough, I also enjoy being social in unusual situations, just for the fun of it.  The wife and I were out shopping the other week, and we were headed back to the car, which was located in a multi-storage parking garage.  We got into the elevator with about five other people, all of us going up.  Utter silence. Everyone looking at the door with dull expressions.  And this is in England, with the stiff upper lips and all that.  To my wife's utter chagrin, I get this big smile on my face and say: "So, how're ya'll doin' today?"  I get some surprised smiles and a few "Just fines", whereupon I tell them that I had read about how people in elevators like to pretend they're all alone, and just wanted to buck the trend and see what happens. It all came out rather positive, for the two or three minutes we had together, and as we all dispersed to our floors, it seemed like everyone's moods had lightened a bit.  The wife was a bit embarrassed, however, and when we got out of the elevator she punched me on the shoulder.  But she was smiling as she did so.

I might be able to get away with this because of my American accent.

I'm a lot like you, so good for you to speak up in the elevator, I'll try that sometime. My sister in law, OTOH, is the opposite and talks to everyone, but it gets kind of annoying sometimes, but she is very Christlike as well and tries to live up to His expectations on the love end.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I am by nature rather closed. It has nothing to do with my religious faith. I'm just rather self-contained, and I might be somewhere on the autism spectrum.  I had friends of course, growing up, but in adulthood, while I can say that I have good acquaintances, my only true friend is my wife. I should say, wives, since my late wife was my only true friend, as is my current wife.  I don't "hang" out with people. 

So, for me to take Elder Uchtdorf's advice to be more "open", I guess this would mean that I start interacting with my neighbors, making actual non-spousal friendships, and so on.  Yech!  I go out occasionally among "the English", and I even enjoy interacting with them, having conversations, but I don't take it any further.  Maybe I need to extend my stride on this.  I'll think about it.

Oddly enough, I also enjoy being social in unusual situations, just for the fun of it.  The wife and I were out shopping the other week, and we were headed back to the car, which was located in a multi-storage parking garage.  We got into the elevator with about five other people, all of us going up.  Utter silence. Everyone looking at the door with dull expressions.  And this is in England, with the stiff upper lips and all that.  To my wife's utter chagrin, I get this big smile on my face and say: "So, how're ya'll doin' today?"  I get some surprised smiles and a few "Just fines", whereupon I tell them that I had read about how people in elevators like to pretend they're all alone, and just wanted to buck the trend and see what happens. It all came out rather positive, for the two or three minutes we had together, and as we all dispersed to our floors, it seemed like everyone's moods had lightened a bit.  The wife was a bit embarrassed, however, and when we got out of the elevator she punched me on the shoulder.  But she was smiling as she did so.

I might be able to get away with this because of my American accent.

I don't think it's your accent.  I think it's the friendliness in your mood and actions that help to lighten other people up. 

Maybe that's what he meant.  Don't be so "English" as the English sometimes are wont to be.  And it doesn't necessarily require any words, either.  Sometimes just a smile or other natural friendly expression while rocking back and forth on my feet, like a small child, can do the trick to make people feel more comfortable around me.

 

[alter idem]

On 9/17/2019 at 12:11 PM, The Nehor said:

We are trying to create Zion, which will probably never be a community for everyone.

I'm afraid this is true.  The world is full of all different kinds of people and while it may seem like Zion should appeal to everyone, it clearly would not and does not.  As to the question, how do we become a community for everyone?  I think we don't.  We can become of community with those who have similar goals and desires.  That's why there are different degrees of Glory and different Kingdoms.

[alter idem]

On 9/18/2019 at 3:22 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm not sure what you think it is I'm proposing.

I said... "IMO- until the church at least adopts a philosophy of truly being a "part" of the body of Christ, recognizing the other parts as being valued and necessary, there's no way the church can be a community for Christians, let alone "everyone".

It's a statement, not a proposal, but I definitely stand behind the idea that if the church and its members can't accept that there are others who are a part of the body of Christ, then it just proves my point that many members have no interest in creating a community for all. They don't really even want a community of all Christians. That's a statement, not a proposal  

 

 

I'm happy to consider myself a member of the community of Christians-- but I'm not sure other Christians want to include us as part of  the Body of Christ. Many take issue with our belief that God has a body, or don't like that we recognize additional scripture such as the Book of Mormon, and they don't like that our Church was restored through a Prophet, Joseph Smith jr.  among other things.  I'm not sure our efforts will change that, since we aren't going to change our doctrines to suit them.

[alter idem]

On 9/17/2019 at 12:53 PM, 2BizE said:

I think Mormons in general do not want to have diverse community.  We tend to exclude anyone who is not willing to conform to our beliefs and food choices. 

In this article, the key is they now nazi had to mentally/spiritually decide that perhaps his beliefs were wrong and that he could change. This opened himself up to listening and learning.

He said something profound., “The ideology is secondary,” he says. “It’s the need to belong that makes them susceptible to white nationalism. If a child had to believe that the earth was flat in order to get that attention and acceptance from that community, he’d believe it.”

For many in our communities, Mormonism doesn’t work, but since it is the largest community group we try to fit in...but our beliefs are not 100 percent aligned with Mormonism, so the larger group ostracizes us (or excommunicates us, which is the same).

I don't think they excommunicate for little differences in belief--such as a global or a local flood, or heartland vs. mesoamerica, etc.  The big things, like practicing polygamy when it's no longer allowed, teaching others that the church isn't baptizing the right way, or they aren't doing the Sacrament correctly, or trying to teach others that fundamental doctrines are not true etc. and sharing their own form of doctrines as revealed truth--  That's the kind of thing that gets one excommunication, IMO.  Ostracizing can happen in a ward, but it's often personality conflicts, IMO. 

[Ahab]

On 9/17/2019 at 11:09 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

IMO- until the church at least adopts a philosophy of truly being a "part" of the body of Christ, recognizing the other parts as being valued and necessary, there's no way the church can be a community for Christians, let alone "everyone".

People come into the Church through the ordinance of baptism administered by someone with the authority to do it, and everyone in it is a part of it.  If people out of it want to be in it they need to get in it the only way there is to enter it.

People who complain about not being in it while not doing what it takes to get in it should just stop complaining about not being in it while doing what it takes to be in it, if they really want to be in it.  Either way, the complaining should stop.

[alter idem]

Some have suggested that it is CofJCofLDS members who are exclusive and don't want to recognize other Christians as part of the body of Christ, or that they ostracize others for not sharing beliefs.  Interesting that here in the News is an example of the exact opposite problem.  In this instance, it is members of the Christian community that are asking LDS members to 'leave'.

 

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

 

Quote

SALT LAKE CITY — Latter-day Saint Ryan Baker has been a member of Samaritan Ministries for about two years. Just a few days ago, the Christian health care organization told him he would need to rethink his beliefs or leave.

“As a community of Christians who help other Christians with their health care, our Guidelines require that all adult members are in agreement with Samaritan Ministries’ Statement of Faith in order to be members,” the Illinois-based organization said in an email to Baker.

The organization’s statement of faith is grounded in the Bible, while Latter-day Saints “historically … affirm additional scriptures as authoritative,” the letter continues. Those scriptures, as well as leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, have “denied at least some portion” of the organization’s statement of faith, the letter adds.

Baker, a Utah native now living in Alaska, said when he joined the organization he promised to attend church regularly; abstain from drugs, alcohol and extramarital sex; and abide by other requirements, but he didn’t recall any of his beliefs being contrary to the organization’s — nor did anyone flag his admission application.

“Had I known, I wouldn't have voluntarily signed up. But we knew a lot of other LDS people who had been in it and never had an issue,” he said.

Samaritan Ministries is a non-profit health care organization that allows members to help each other with medical expenses instead of using traditional health insurance. Each month, the members send their “share” to other members who need to pay for health care. When a member is in need, they can contact the organization and receive help directly from others in the organization.

“They've been great,” Baker said. “We feel like we've benefited from it, and we say we've benefited other people. We're happy to be a part of it. So we're a little taken aback by this.”

Baker said he received a call Friday from one of Samaritan Ministries’ “extremely diplomatic” pastoral care specialists tasked with contacting some Latter-day Saints involved in the organization. When Baker told him he wouldn’t have time to talk while at work, the specialist sent him the letter detailing the theological differences between Latter-day Saints and the organization’s statement of faith.

According to the letter, the Bible teaches that eternal life is a free gift granted by grace alone, while Latter-day Saints believe that, while resurrection is a free gift, exaltation is based on good “works” and adherence to commandments.

The statement of faith on the organization’s website, however, only requires members to “believe that all people have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory and can be saved from eternal death only through faith in Jesus Christ."

The letter also states that “Mormonism” does not accept “the triune God of the Bible” — the belief that God is three persons in one — but rather asserts that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three separate and unique beings.

“I am not ignorant of the traditional differences between my church and certain other Christian denominations regarding what the Bible actually teaches regarding the nature of the Godhead, or the Trinity, or the triune God, but I never imagined that those differences, which intelligent and devout Christians have been discussing for centuries, would be grounds for being deemed inconsistent with the statement of faith,” Baker said.

“Are the differences … so significant that people whose conceptions of deity vary slightly can't cooperate in a practical and earthly endeavor such as sharing health care costs?”

Baker said he and his family would like to remain a part of the organization, and he hopes to help clarify what he says is a lack of understanding about the church and its beliefs.

“They provide wiggle room on certain areas, especially regarding tobacco use, but in this case, it seems like they want to take a very strict, hard line, definitionally, on what a Christian is,” he said.

Samaritan Ministries declined an interview but sent KSL.com a brief statement that cited the “Affordable Care Act’s requirement that members of health care sharing ministries share ‘a common set of religious beliefs.’”

“Samaritan Ministries is a 501c3 not-for-profit Christian health care sharing ministry with over 80,000 Christian households across the country directly sharing each other’s health care expenses for the glory of God. ... Samaritan members are required to sign a Christian Statement of Faith that outlines the Biblical beliefs of historic Christianity,” the statement reads.

The letter Baker received encourages “anyone who is in fellowship with the LDS faith” to attend a “Biblical Christian” church and reflect on their ability to affirm the organization’s statement of faith.

“If you genuinely affirm Samaritan’s Statement of Faith and your church, ward, temple, or fellowship cannot, we kindly and sincerely ask how you are able to reconcile the LDS teachings with your Biblical, Christian confession with Samaritan Ministries,” the letter reads.

Baker said he’s grateful the organization has reached out instead of instantly expelling him and thinks they’re trying to understand – though he’s surprised it’s an issue at all.

“The approach seemed a little heavy-handed,” he said. “If they feel that they have to take steps to kick us out, then I’ll let them take that step.”

Following the publication of this article, Samaritan Ministries again contacted KSL.com with another brief statement:

"Samaritan Ministries has never removed any person from membership, nor will it, solely because of their church affiliation, if we have already accepted them into membership and they have signed our Statement of Faith and re-affirm it yearly. This is true for all Samaritan Ministries members."

The organization has not yet specified whether this will affect Latter-day Saints who apply to enter the organization in the future, neither have they specified whether there will be consequences for those who sign the statement of faith but remain active and profess belief in a church that has theological differences.

When asked whether he would reaffirm the organization's statement of faith, Baker said, "I would like to continue my participation with Samaritan, but I will not disavow in any way my allegiance to or membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Baker said his beliefs are in accordance with the teachings of God in the Bible and, while he understands faithful Christians may disagree on the exact nature of the Godhead and that private organizations should have the right to set standards for membership, "it's wrong-headed and lamentable that this would be seen as too big a hurdle to overcome to work together in a practical matter such as sharing healthcare costs."

 

[The Nehor]

Every church should be to at least some degree exclusive as regards to doctrine. Why does the organization exist if it does not believe it has some divine truth or power no one else has?

[Tacenda]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Every church should be to at least some degree exclusive as regards to doctrine. Why does the organization exist if it does not believe it has some divine truth or power no one else has?

Why does it need that? I think that's kind of silly. And no community at all, IMO.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Why does it need that? I think that's kind of silly. And no community at all, IMO.

Communities form around ideals or goals. Without anything to agree on or if those goals are shaky or unsupported the community tends to fall.

Most communities agree of some basics. Even the most open and I doctrine churches focus at least in generalities like love or not harming each other and will exclude those that flagrantly violate those tenets. That is all well and good.

The church though should be about more. It is about connecting with something and teaching about it. Many religions have forgotten that. A community based on lighter principles would ot lead people to the desert of Utah or be likely to survive Roman persecution. For that you need truths, deep truths, and even maybe (or especially) hard truths that anchor the soul. You need a divinity that challenges you, that says no or commands the difficult or impossible. I suspect that is the only way to get faith strong enough to lead to exaltation.

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 3:40 PM, alter idem said:

I'm happy to consider myself a member of the community of Christians-- but I'm not sure other Christians want to include us as part of  the Body of Christ. Many take issue with our belief that God has a body, or don't like that we recognize additional scripture such as the Book of Mormon, and they don't like that our Church was restored through a Prophet, Joseph Smith jr.  among other things.  I'm not sure our efforts will change that, since we aren't going to change our doctrines to suit them.

I agree that not everyone would want to be a part of the "LDS Group", but just because some Christians don't accept Mormons doesn't mean that Mormons likewise should accept some Christians.