"Other announcements" Pres. Nelson

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

an acceleration of getting the word out without an accompanying acceleration of performing saving ordinances, doesn’t accelerate the work of salvation

This assumes it has to be a direct linear relationship when it may be that the greater publication is preparing the ground of potential converts that may require more time or more complex conversion than those who have felt the spirit and joined the church relatively quickly. 

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

But, as the numbers show, an acceleration of getting the word out without an accompanying acceleration of performing saving ordinances, doesn’t accelerate the work of salvation. (My understanding being that salvation requires the ordinances.)

The work of salvation necessarily entails the teaching of those who choose not to accept that salvation.  We would hope that those who hear the word of the Lord will choose to accept His ordinances.  But as we know from the parable of the sower, not all will accept the word of the Lord.  And not all who accept it will "endure to the end".  Yet that, too, is part of the work of salvation.  A missionary who teaches many people but never baptizes any may feel he or she has failed, but that is not the case. The labor of the missionary is to offer the work of salvation to as many hearers as possible; how many accept it is between those hearers and the Lord.  Even Jesus did not have a 100% conversion rate -- did He fail, then?  Of course not.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

I'm still confused why we're limiting the work of salvation to increasing numbers of people receiving the ordinances. That's important, and I love it! But we've got stacks of people in the Church who've received the ordinances and are still, very much, works in progress. In my corner of the vineyard, deepening conversion of those already on the records is a huge part of what we're seeing accelerate. This includes a significant increase in following and being blessed by prophetic counsel.

Another way I see the work accelerating is how deeply converted many of our young people are even earlier in life. We have deacons who are better at receiving revelation and recognising the voice of the Lord than their parents are!

Edited September 6, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[rockpond]

40 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The work of salvation necessarily entails the teaching of those who choose not to accept that salvation.  We would hope that those who hear the word of the Lord will choose to accept His ordinances.  But as we know from the parable of the sower, not all will accept the word of the Lord.  And not all who accept it will "endure to the end".  Yet that, too, is part of the work of salvation.  A missionary who teaches many people but never baptizes any may feel he or she has failed, but that is not the case. The labor of the missionary is to offer the work of salvation to as many hearers as possible; how many accept it is between those hearers and the Lord.  Even Jesus did not have a 100% conversion rate -- did He fail, then?  Of course not.

 

We aren’t discussing whether we’re failing.  

If I understand you correctly, the work of salvation could be accelerating even if we aren’t saving people at an accelerating rate.  You’re saying the work of salvation could be accelerating even if more people are refusing salvation?  

Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Alarming was not my intent. 

Pick your word: Not all that amazing? Not all that interesting?

[rockpond]

32 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm still confused why we're limiting the work of salvation to increasing numbers of people receiving the ordinances. That's important, and I love it! But we've got stacks of people in the Church who've received the ordinances and are still, very much, works in progress. In my corner of the vineyard, deepening conversion of those already on the records is a huge part of what we're seeing accelerate. This includes a significant increase in following and being blessed by prophetic counsel.

Another way I see the work accelerating is how deeply converted many of our young people are even earlier in life. We have deacons who are better at receiving revelation and recognising the voice of the Lord than their parents are!

You or someone else mentioned that much earlier in the thread when I asked the question.  I think that’s a more fitting explanation. 

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Pick your word: Not all that amazing? Not all that interesting?

It was interesting enough to make you respond and continue this dialogue with me.

My point was salient.  And correct.  That’s enough for me. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

From the Liahona:

Quote

What Is the Work of Salvation?

The work of salvation is Heavenly Father’s work “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). This important work includes member missionary work, convert retention, activation of less-active members, temple and family history work, and teaching the gospel.

That last one is another area that I see accelerating in our stake. Many members have genuinely responded to the prophetic call to turn our homes into places of gospel learning. As just one example, contributions and comments in our Sunday school classes, including those for youth, make it clear that families and individuals are not just reading from the Come, Follow Me resource but are thinking about it, discussing it, and seeking to apply what they are learning. Families that are doing this are growing visibly stronger week to week, and the children in these families are resisting the world more than I've often seen before.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It was interesting enough to make you respond and continue this dialogue with me.

My point was salient.  And correct.  That’s enough for me. 

Well, at the moment, I’m hard pressed to identify your point. So much for salience, I guess. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I think that’s a more fitting explanation. 

Thanks. I do suspect that deepening conversion is more likely than most other means to result in increased convert baptisms at some point down the road. True conversion is infectious and draws friends and neighbours close, like a crackling fire and the aroma of hot chocolate on a cold night. The people around us, like the Lord Himself, tend to shy away from the merely lukewarm.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, at the moment, I’m hard pressed to identify your point. So much for salience, I guess. 

Mate, the point is obvious. He doesn't like Elder Maxwell's proposition that we should not hesitate to follow the First Presidency and the Twelve. He needs everyone to acknowledge that our belief in prophetic fallibility is in conflict with this teaching. Are you genuinely missing this or just goading him?

[Stargazer]

Just now, rockpond said:

We aren’t discussing whether we’re failing.  

If I understand you correctly, the work of salvation could be accelerating even if we aren’t saving people at an accelerating rate.  You’re saying the work of salvation could be accelerating even if more people are refusing salvation?  

Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. 

Again, the work of salvation necessarily includes the teaching of those who will reject the teaching.  Those who reject salvation have to be taught, either here or in the spirit world.  And the work of salvation will not be complete until the last person who has not heard the gospel actually hears it.  And either accepts it or rejects it.  I suppose I need to drill down to my understanding of what salvation is.  "Salvation" is being saved from the consequence of sin, by accepting the sacrifice of Christ so that one does not need to suffer for one's own sins.

Now, I happen to believe that the overwhelming majority of those who hear the gospel will eventually accept it, either here, or there. Mostly there, since very few get to hear it here.  There will be a few proud and hardy souls who will ultimately reject the Lord's offer of salvation, and will have to pay for their own sins with their own bodies.  But the vast majority will not, ultimately, reject it, even if they rejected it here in mortality.  So the vast majority will inherit at least the Terrestrial Kingdom.  But that vast majority will not hear it here.  And of the very few that hear it here, whether that number is large or small is not a matter of consequence.  It is our responsibility to provide as many as possible the opportunity to hear it here, but we are not to be discouraged if many reject it, sad as that may be. 

I'm saying that it is inevitable that many will reject the Gospel upon being taught the Gospel.  And so what?  Our job is to teach them -- theirs is to accept or reject.  We can control the former, but not the latter.

I don't see why you find this so hard to comprehend.

[rockpond]

42 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

From the Liahona:

That last one is another area that I see accelerating in our stake. Many members have genuinely responded to the prophetic call to turn our homes into places of gospel learning. As just one example, contributions and comments in our Sunday school classes, including those for youth, make it clear that families and individuals are not just reading from the Come, Follow Me resource but are thinking about it, discussing it, and seeking to apply what they are learning. Families that are doing this are growing visibly stronger week to week, and the children in these families are resisting the world more than I've often seen before.

I agree that Come Follow Me has been incredible.  In my ward, extended family, and circle of friends, it seems to have transformed family scripture study. 

[rockpond]

40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, at the moment, I’m hard pressed to identify your point. So much for salience, I guess. 

I never expect you to, Scott.  No worries. 

[rockpond]

39 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thanks. I do suspect that deepening conversion is more likely than most other means to result in increased convert baptisms at some point down the road. True conversion is infectious and draws friends and neighbours close, like a crackling fire and the aroma of hot chocolate on a cold night. The people around us, like the Lord Himself, tend to shy away from the merely lukewarm.

I hope that will come to fruition. 

[rockpond]

36 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, the point is obvious. He doesn't like Elder Maxwell's proposition that we should not hesitate to follow the First Presidency and the Twelve. He needs everyone to acknowledge that our belief in prophetic fallibility is in conflict with this teaching. Are you genuinely missing this or just goading him?

It’s not that I don’t like Elder Maxwell’s proposition.  Just that I think we need to find a consistent position regarding the prophetic role and stick to it. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

It’s not that I don’t like Elder Maxwell’s proposition.  Just that I think we need to find a consistent position regarding the prophetic role and stick to it. 

I think I'm there.

[rockpond]

36 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Again, the work of salvation necessarily includes the teaching of those who will reject the teaching.  Those who reject salvation have to be taught, either here or in the spirit world.  And the work of salvation will not be complete until the last person who has not heard the gospel actually hears it.  And either accepts it or rejects it.  I suppose I need to drill down to my understanding of what salvation is.  "Salvation" is being saved from the consequence of sin, by accepting the sacrifice of Christ so that one does not need to suffer for one's own sins.

Now, I happen to believe that the overwhelming majority of those who hear the gospel will eventually accept it, either here, or there. Mostly there, since very few get to hear it here.  There will be a few proud and hardy souls who will ultimately reject the Lord's offer of salvation, and will have to pay for their own sins with their own bodies.  But the vast majority will not, ultimately, reject it, even if they rejected it here in mortality.  So the vast majority will inherit at least the Terrestrial Kingdom.  But that vast majority will not hear it here.  And of the very few that hear it here, whether that number is large or small is not a matter of consequence.  It is our responsibility to provide as many as possible the opportunity to hear it here, but we are not to be discouraged if many reject it, sad as that may be. 

I'm saying that it is inevitable that many will reject the Gospel upon being taught the Gospel.  And so what?  Our job is to teach them -- theirs is to accept or reject.  We can control the former, but not the latter.

I don't see why you find this so hard to comprehend.

I don’t find it hard to comprehend.  I understand that the work of salvation includes rejection.

My question was seeking to understand what was accelerating.  I doubt President Nelson was suggesting his excitement at an accelerating rate of rejection of our message.  Nor do I think that’s what you or others here were suggesting. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It’s not that I don’t like Elder Maxwell’s proposition.  Just that I think we need to find a consistent position regarding the prophetic role and stick to it. 

I think the position is the same one that has been readily available to God's children since the days of Adam. I think this is only complicated if one doesn't really care for it.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think I'm there.

Do you mean you agree with him that we need to find a consistent position with regard to the prophetic role, or do you mean you have found that position?

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you mean you agree with him that we need to find a consistent position with regard to the prophetic role, or do you mean you have found that position?

See my much less ambiguous edit above.

ETA: D'oh. That's the second time today my attempt to edit resulted in a second post ...

Edited September 6, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Stargazer]

28 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I don’t find it hard to comprehend.  I understand that the work of salvation includes rejection.

My question was seeking to understand what was accelerating.  I doubt President Nelson was suggesting his excitement at an accelerating rate of rejection of our message.  Nor do I think that’s what you or others here were suggesting. 

OK, then.

Acceleration of propagation of the message. That's what I'm thinking.  And as for whether this accelerates membership growth, well, we shall see. Seems like it might, though.

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

See my much less ambiguous edit above.

ETA: D'oh. That's the second time today my attempt to edit resulted in a second post ...

Got it. Your two posts should have been a single post.

Thanks.

[boo]

On 9/1/2019 at 5:48 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

“Elder Cook spoke to the missionaries about the prophet. ‘We—as the members the [Quorum of the] Twelve—and I personally testify we have seen the workings of the Spirit of God with him, and the revelations of Jesus Christ unto him, and the fulfillment of those revelations. I want you to know that we honor and sustain him.’”

So much for those who don’t think President Nelson has been receiving revelations. 

We call that hearsay. Let special witnesses speak publically about there own experience.What good are witnesses that refuse to testify? Joseph didn’t hesitate . Peter didn’t hesitate . Paul didn’t hesitate. Why do our 15 .

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, boo said:

We call that hearsay. Let special witnesses speak publically about there own experience.What good are witnesses that refuse to testify? Joseph didn’t hesitate . Peter didn’t hesitate . Paul didn’t hesitate. Why do our 15 .

I think President Nelson has spoken about his own experience. I also believe apostles who work closely with him can and do receive revelation on their own regarding the same matters on which the Church president has received revelation. It is not hearsay when they themselves are bearing witness of what they themselves have experienced.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Scott Lloyd