A course correction for the Maxwell Institute?

[Rich Hansen]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I reiterate that Daniel Peterson has on a number of occasions reported that he has received assurances from high-level sources (about as high as it gets, he said at one point, as I recall) that the purge of 2012 was not ordered by the Brethren. I think it rather telling that Blair (who hired on after all this transpired) has declined either to provide substantive contradictory information or to substantiate his own insinuations. 

Dan is traveling in Egypt right now and has only spotty and poor internet access, but I am in high hopes that we will hear from him later.

Methinks you have bet on the wrong horse. 

Even if senior leadership was not involved in Dan's removal, you may be placing your allegiance against the Brethren, which I can't imagine that you of all people would want to do.

You could always contact Elder Holland personally.  Maybe Bill Reel can hook you up.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This long-time observer finds unfortunate intrigues like this in the Church to be  disheartening and sources of doubt and mistrust. 

 

Would that the events of 2012 that set all this in motion had never transpired.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Rich Hansen said:

Methinks you have bet on the wrong horse. 

Even if senior leadership was not involved in Dan's removal, you may be placing your allegiance against the Brethren, which I can't imagine that you of all people would want to do.

You could always contact Elder Holland personally.  Maybe Bill Reel can hook you up.

I'm confident my allegiance is well placed.

[hope_for_things]

50 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I reiterate that Daniel Peterson has on a number of occasions reported that he has received assurances from high-level sources (about as high as it gets, he said at one point, as I recall) that the purge of 2012 was not ordered by the Brethren. I think it rather telling that Blair (who hired on after all this transpired) has declined either to provide substantive contradictory information or to substantiate his own insinuations. 

Dan is traveling in Egypt right now and has only spotty and poor internet access, but I am in high hopes that we will hear from him later.

I wouldn’t doubt that Dan’s high level sources told him something along those lines.  What are friends for anyway, helps Dan feel better about it and be the good soldier in the fight still.  It doesn’t mean what they said was the full truth though.  

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I wouldn’t doubt that Dan’s high level sources told him something along those lines.  What are friends for anyway, helps Dan feel better about it and be the good soldier in the fight still.  It doesn’t mean what they said was the full truth though.  

For the record, I find deeply offensive your scarcely veiled accusations that the Brethren are egomaniacal liars 

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For the record, I find deeply offensive your scarcely veiled accusations that the Brethren are egomaniacal liars 

Seems strange to choose to be offended by  HFT statement that said absolutely NOTHING about the Brethren being "egomaniacal liars".

Suggesting that the Brethren have "people skills" and may be saying kind things to Dan Peterson in the wake of his firing, in an effort to minimize his personal pain, should be applauded. Why would this offend? Or... are you simply assuming the worst possible intention from HFT's comment? You seem really high-strung on this thread.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Seems strange to choose to be offended by  HFT statement that said absolutely NOTHING about the Brethren being "egomaniacal liars".

Suggesting that the Brethren have "people skills" and may be saying kind things to Dan Peterson in the wake of his firing, in an effort to minimize his personal pain, should be applauded. Why would this offend? Or... are you simply assuming the worst possible intention from HFT's comment? You seem really high-strung on this thread.

Apparently you haven't been paying close attention to his past couple of posts on this thread. He used the terms "egotistical" and "egomaniac" in reference to both Dan Peterson and the Church and its leaders. And ignorantly surmising that what they said to Dan "was [not] the full truth" is tantamount to saying they lied to him.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apparently you haven't been paying close attention to his past couple of posts on this thread. He used the terms "egotistical" and "egomaniac" in reference to both Dan Peterson and the Church and its leaders. And ignorantly surmising that what they said to Dan "was [not] the full truth" is tantamount to saying they lied to him.

 

Are you saying that every time a person doesn't say the "full truth" they are lying? That's a mighty high bar.

So IF the brethren felt that Dan did some good things at MI yet also needed to be removed, you think it would be a lie for them to focus on the positives and abstaining from telling him he deserved to be fired? Harsh...and weird position to take. I would expect the brethren to take the soft approach by being positive. There's no need for every person to share their complete opinion of a person or their work.

 

[BHodges]

Maybe Dan can tell us why, if the brethren disapprove of his removal as editor, they didn't restore him. Did he ever ask them about that? What did they say? Would it be wrong of him to withhold information like that? It was more than six years ago.

I'm confident Elder Holland wants each respective group to do the best they can, Dan included. Dan isn't on the outs with church leadership as far as I can tell. At the very least, Elder Holland appreciates some of Dan's work. That's great. When the full Maxwell Lecture is released people will have a much better sense of its message than any brief summary, like Dan's, can provide. In the meantime, Saints need to end the friendly fire. 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Are you saying that every time a person doesn't say the "full truth" they are lying? That's a mighty high bar.

So IF the brethren felt that Dan did some good things at MI yet also needed to be removed, you think it would be a lie for them to focus on the positives and abstaining from telling him he deserved to be fired? Harsh...and weird position to take. I would expect the brethren to take the soft approach by being positive. There's no need for every person to share their complete opinion of a person or their work.

 

I think it would be a lie for them to tell him they were not involved with the purge if they indeed were. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, BHodges said:

Maybe Dan can tell us why, if the brethren disapprove of his removal as editor, they didn't restore him. Did he ever ask them about that? What did they say? Would it be wrong of him to withhold information like that? It was more than six years ago.

I'm confident Elder Holland wants each respective group to do the best they can, Dan included. Dan isn't on the outs with church leadership as far as I can tell. At the very least, Elder Holland appreciates some of Dan's work. That's great. When the full Maxwell Lecture is released people will have a much better sense of its message than any brief summary, like Dan's, can provide. In the meantime, Saints need to end the friendly fire. 

As I indicated, Dan may be weighing in here later. At the moment, he has other fish to fry, as indicated of late by his blog posts from Egypt. 

[hope_for_things]

45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apparently you haven't been paying close attention to his past couple of posts on this thread. He used the terms "egotistical" and "egomaniac" in reference to both Dan Peterson and the Church and its leaders. And ignorantly surmising that what they said to Dan "was [not] the full truth" is tantamount to saying they lied to him.

I think there is a clear difference between what I said, and how you’re characterizing it. 

I do want to thank you for providing that link to the comments over at the Interpreter.  I found them fascinating and a good reminder about the battles between the old guard and the new guard that still fester in Mormon apologetics.  I bring this point up from time to time on this message board, but some people dismiss it.  I think this little flair up is exhibit A that these issues are still happening and that there is some serious animosity.  The one poster that talked about guarding the doctrinal purity is a classic example of the boundary maintenance police that I’ve pointed out in the past as something the Interpreter crowd is interested in.  

I find it very sad that these boundary maintenance types are so uncharitable towards their fellow saints.  My analogy to politics earlier seems even more appropriate now.  Those who say we should let the past go and attempt to get along are accused by the boundary maintenance types as being traitors to the truth and evil liberals.  It’s honestly so sad that we have such tribalism inside the Mormon tribe.   

[Rich Hansen]

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it would be a lie for them to tell him they were not involved with the purge if they indeed were. 

 

You state that Dan received assurances from senior officials that they did not "order'" the purge.

Perhaps Church leadership knew about Dan's planned removal but did nothing to stop it. 

Leadership telling Dan they  did not "order" the purge would not be a lie.

Nor would it be a lie if Church leadership had been informed of the  purge and approved it, but did not "order" it.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Rich Hansen

[Bernard Gui]

25 minutes ago, Rich Hansen said:

 

You state that Dan received assurances from senior officials that they did not "order'" the purge.

Perhaps Church leadership knew about Dan's planned removal but did nothing to stop it. 

Leadership telling Dan they  did not "order" the purge would not be a lie.

Nor would it be a lie if Church leadership were informed of the  purge and approved it, but did not "order" it.

Whatever really happened behind the scenes,  there is no defense or excuse for the unprofessional, unkind, ungrateful, and thoughtless way it was actually carried out in person. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Lastly, is it any surprise that Mormonism created a character like Dan?  Mormonism is such a young and egotistical religion.  It’s very foundation is built on a superiority complex.  On top of that, Mormonism was founded in America which is also a young country with a superiority complex.  Ego mania is to be expected if you really think about it.  

Ego mania is to be expected?  Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you consider yourself a Latter-day Saint?  You must be the creme of the crop to be so unscathed by this "ego mania" contagion that infests the religion. 

Does this comment reflect your lived experience in this religion - do we seem to have larger ego's, in general, in comparison to other people you rub shoulders with?  I get so tired of this accusation.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints produces good, humble people, full of charity in those who live the tenets and submit to the principles.  Do not confuse conviction for conceit.   

 

[hope_for_things]

Just now, pogi said:

Ego mania is to be expected?  Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you consider yourself a Latter-day Saint?  You must be the creme of the crop to be so unscathed by this "ego mania" contagion that infests the religion. 

Does this comment reflect your lived experience in this religion - do we seem to have larger ego's, in general, in comparison to other people you rub shoulders with?  I get so tired of this accusation.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints produces good, humble people, full of charity in those who live the tenets and submit to the principles.  Do not confuse conviction for conceit.   

 

Yes, I’m a product of Mormonism, pioneer heritage that I’m proud of and somewhat disturbed by, same with my national heritage.  Only in recent years have I began to see the messy and problematic elements to my heritage.  I’m seeking to learn from the mistakes of the past but also honor the good.  

The statements about ego are what I see from my perspective, and if you consider the youth of this religion compared to others, it makes a lot of sense developmentally. 

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The statements about ego are what I see from my perspective, and if you consider the youth of this religion compared to others, it makes a lot of sense developmentally. 

I have worked closely with the youth in young men and scouts over the last 10 years of my life.  I have nothing but good things to say about them. They give me hope for the future. I really don't know where you are coming from.  You really think our youth are more egotistical in general?

Edited December 31, 2018 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, Rich Hansen said:

 

You state that Dan received assurances from senior officials that they did not "order'" the purge.

Perhaps Church leadership knew about Dan's planned removal but did nothing to stop it. 

Leadership telling Dan they  did not "order" the purge would not be a lie.

Nor would it be a lie if Church leadership were informed of the  purge and approved it, but did not "order" it.

As I recall, they were blindsided by it. Perhaps Dan will clarify later. 

[hope_for_things]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have worked closely with the youth in young men and scouts over the last 10 years of my life.  I have nothing but good things to say about them. They give me hope for the future. I really don't know where you are coming from.  You really think are youth are more egotistical in general?

I’m not talking about young men and women, I’m talking about a young religion (less than 200 yrs old) and a young nation.   

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I’m not talking about young men and women, I’m talking about a young religion (less than 200 yrs old) and a young nation.   

Either way, you include these young men and women in your judgment.  And, no, I don't think it does make sense developmentally that young organizations are naturally more egotistical. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by pogi

[Calm]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

find it very sad that these boundary maintenance types are so uncharitable towards their fellow saints.

But it is okay to be uncharitable if you are trying to remove boundaries?  Or do you think labeling someone as having a "huge ego" is civil?

Edited December 31, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I’m not talking about young men and women, I’m talking about a young religion (less than 200 yrs old) and a young nation.   

I have lived in three nations.  The most 'egotistical' as I would identify it was the oldest (Russia), the least was the youngest (Canada).

Otoh, I think many would label what I saw as ego as loyalty and faith in their people's potential (the Russians I observed were very emotionally attached to the idea of the Russian soul).  

As soon as someone starts labeling an entire group with personal, individual characteristics such as egos, I start looking for personal biases that cause them to interpret behaviour as egotistical rather than committed, etc. 

[BHodges]

Checking out for a while to enjoy the holiday. Take care, all. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 minutes ago, BHodges said:

Checking out for a while to enjoy the holiday. Take care, all. 

Thank you for your participation. When you return, would you please provide your description of the events that lead up to and culminated in the removal and replacement of the former Institute leaders? Please include how and by whom it was decided to handle the change the way it was done.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[HappyJackWagon]

Maybe this has already been shared but if not...

Terryl & Fiona Givens, as well as Steven Peck will be joining MI in 2019.

https://mi.byu.edu/new-2019-disciple-scholars/?fbclid=IwAR1vqcFme1oFb6DxL9pZirFcT4npBD-vR3oyp8rp1AbzMz43VwhLdDUJCbc

Scott, I'm curious if you see the adding of the Givens' to MI as the course correction you would expect or hope for?

@Scott Lloyd

Edited December 31, 2018 by HappyJackWagon