The Cosmic Score

[FunOnlineMan]

Preface: The highest grade I ever got in math was a C+, so hopefully the math here isn’t too bad, but I tried to approximate as much as possible to blur the parts that require a working brain.

Okay.

The earth has approximately 8 billion people on it right now. The LDS church’s population is about 16 million (which I’d guess to be the high water mark). That means approximately one fifth of one percent of humanity is currently on track for exaltation, assuming all of those ~16 million members stay active, enter into and keep all of their temple covenants, and so on (this is  an unfair standard for 16 million people to live up to, but it feels more generous to give them all the benefit of the doubt)

Humans showed up, we’ll say 50,000 years ago, though scientific estimates vary. In the history of mankind, it is estimated (again, there are that approximately 108 billion members of this invasive ape species have come and gone. Of the ~108 billion humans ever to have lived, we can be generous again and say that 30 million of them received the teaching and ordinances necessary to reach the celestial kingdom during their time here.

This means that only about .027% of humanity can be considered exaltable. Leaving basically all of those 108 billion people to be taught in the hereafter and 108 billion names that will need their temple work done.

In other words, if every one of those hypothetical 30 million all-time members did continuous temple work and only temple work, it would take about a week to complete just the proxy endowments. 

Now, that’s assuming they don’t need to physically go into a temple to complete the work in the millennium (I don’t remember hearing about this notion, but it seems reasonable, assuming the god of the Bible is personally reigning over the whole earth in a 1000 year welcome back party).

It’s not as bad as it seems. Unless, for whatever unjust reason, people that didn’t  get a chance to accept the gospel in mortality get an improved chance to accept the gospel in spirit prison, most have them will reject the message. By my calculations, this should save hundreds of billions of hours of millennial temple work.

Thoughts?

[strappinglad]

I propose you do some more math and calculate the percentage by weight and by volume for the amount of yeast(leaven) that goes into a bread recipe. You may find it interesting.

Time is on God's side.

 

[FunOnlineMan]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

I propose you do some more math and calculate the percentage by weight and by volume for the amount of yeast(leaven) that goes into a bread recipe. You may find it interesting.

Time is on God's side.

 

I decline any propositions for more math. Thank you for respecting my wishes. 

You’ve made a pretty analogy, but I’m not sure I understand it. Can you dumb it down? I’m sore from the calculations, you see. 

[let’s roll]

25 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Preface: The highest grade I ever got in math was a C+, so hopefully the math here isn’t too bad, but I tried to approximate as much as possible to blur the parts that require a working brain.

Okay.

The earth has approximately 8 billion people on it right now. The LDS church’s population is about 16 million (which I’d guess to be the high water mark). That means approximately one fifth of one percent of humanity is currently on track for exaltation, assuming all of those ~16 million members stay active, enter into and keep all of their temple covenants, and so on (this is  an unfair standard for 16 million people to live up to, but it feels more generous to give them all the benefit of the doubt)

Humans showed up, we’ll say 50,000 years ago, though scientific estimates vary. In the history of mankind, it is estimated (again, there are that approximately 108 billion members of this invasive ape species have come and gone. Of the ~108 billion humans ever to have lived, we can be generous again and say that 30 million of them received the teaching and ordinances necessary to reach the celestial kingdom during their time here.

This means that only about .027% of humanity can be considered exaltable. Leaving basically all of those 108 billion people to be taught in the hereafter and 108 billion names that will need their temple work done.

In other words, if every one of those hypothetical 30 million all-time members did continuous temple work and only temple work, it would take about a week to complete just the proxy endowments. 

Now, that’s assuming they don’t need to physically go into a temple to complete the work in the millennium (I don’t remember hearing about this notion, but it seems reasonable, assuming the god of the Bible is personally reigning over the whole earth in a 1000 year welcome back party).

It’s not as bad as it seems. Unless, for whatever unjust reason, people that didn’t  get a chance to accept the gospel in mortality get an improved chance to accept the gospel in spirit prison, most have them will reject the message. By my calculations, this should save hundreds of billions of hours of millennial temple work.

Thoughts?

You can net out the 30 billion or so who died before reaching accountability (or because of mental disability never reached accountability).  They need nothing more to inherit Celestial glory.

[FunOnlineMan]

1 minute ago, let’s roll said:

You can net out the 30 billion or so who died before reaching accountability (or because of mental disability never reached accountability).  They need nothing more to inherit Celestial glory.

More like you can, bub. I did the other calculations. I’m taking a break from math now. Thanks. 

I am curious about the effect on the totals, but my guess (using zero math at all) is that the numbers will still look bad on a practical level. 

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

That means approximately one fifth of one percent of humanity is currently on track for exaltation

I think this is your first miscalculation.

Who says that righteous Buddhists, Hindu's, Muslims, fellow Christians, and secularists are not on track for exaltation?  How could you possibly know their heart or if it is in-line with the light of Christ as revealed to them?

37 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

In other words, if every one of those hypothetical 30 million all-time members did continuous temple work and only temple work, it would take about a week to complete just the proxy endowments. 

When you consider that resurrected individuals at the morning and evening of the first resurrection will be able to perform their own ordinances for themselves and participate in proxy for other's, we will see exponential growth.  But I also wonder if temple work will even need to be performed for those in the second resurrection (at the end of the millennium) since we will know that they have already rejected the gospel and will not receive celestial glory (D&C 76:81-112). 

Edited December 14, 2018 by pogi

[FunOnlineMan]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think this is your first miscalculation.

Who says that righteous Buddhists, Hindu's, Muslims, fellow Christians, and secularists are not on track for exaltation?  How could you possibly know their heart or if it is in-line with the light of Christ as revealed to them?

Neither of us knows. This is conjecture about the second coming. I’m just looking at what happens in our current reality. I’d be happy to look over stats about conversion rates among those groups, but I can’t imagine they’re enough to move the needle on a larger scale. 

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

When you consider that resurrected individuals at the morning and evening of the first resurrection will be able to perform their own ordinances for themselves and participate in proxy for other's, we will see exponential growth.  But I also wonder if temple work will even need to be performed for those in the second resurrection (at the end of the millennium) since we will know that they have already rejected the gospel and will not receive celestial glory (D&C 76:81-112). 

I admit to ignorance about many of the fine details about the millennial reign. I assumed it was just a temple fest (High Priest’s delight).

[let’s roll]

28 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

More like you can, bub. I did the other calculations. I’m taking a break from math now. Thanks. 

I am curious about the effect on the totals, but my guess (using zero math at all) is that the numbers will still look bad on a practical level. 

I’m on board with pogi’s modifications as well.  Exaltation is a ticket to work, not relax.  So if your point is there will be plenty of work to do then all I can say is, bring it on.

[FunOnlineMan]

Just now, let’s roll said:

I’m on board with pogi’s modifications as well.  Exaltation is a ticket to work, not relax.  So if your point is there will be plenty of work to do then all I can say is, bring it on.

If that’s how it shakes out, I’d say there will be much more than enough work for everyone.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

 

Preface: The highest grade I ever got in math was a C+, so hopefully the math here isn’t too bad, but I tried to approximate as much as possible to blur the parts that require a working brain.

I am in the midst of a bad cold and in the midst of the coughing and sniffling my brain doesn't want to focus on the math at the moment, but as for the qualitative issues you raise...

2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Okay.

The earth has approximately 8 billion people on it right now. The LDS church’s population is about 16 million (which I’d guess to be the high water mark). That means approximately one fifth of one percent of humanity is currently on track for exaltation, assuming all of those ~16 million members stay active, enter into and keep all of their temple covenants, and so on (this is  an unfair standard for 16 million people to live up to, but it feels more generous to give them all the benefit of the doubt)

Humans showed up, we’ll say 50,000 years ago, though scientific estimates vary. In the history of mankind, it is estimated (again, there are that approximately 108 billion members of this invasive ape species have come and gone. Of the ~108 billion humans ever to have lived, we can be generous again and say that 30 million of them received the teaching and ordinances necessary to reach the celestial kingdom during their time here.

This means that only about .027% of humanity can be considered exaltable. Leaving basically all of those 108 billion people to be taught in the hereafter and 108 billion names that will need their temple work done.

I am not sure how you think only .027% can be considered exaltable.  What did they do (or not do) that makes it impossible to exalt them?

2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

In other words, if every one of those hypothetical 30 million all-time members did continuous temple work and only temple work, it would take about a week to complete just the proxy endowments. 

Now, that’s assuming they don’t need to physically go into a temple to complete the work in the millennium (I don’t remember hearing about this notion, but it seems reasonable, assuming the god of the Bible is personally reigning over the whole earth in a 1000 year welcome back party).

The process of the Second Coming will have severe repercussions to earth's population, including widespread death and destruction.  That will not be alleviated by magic.

The upheavals of the tribulation may kill half of humanity, so only 4 billion may be left, and possibly half the current members of the church. Much or most infrastructure will have been destroyed in earthquakes and man-made violence and will have to be rebuilt, including probably a good number of temples.  Thus the provision of food and shelter will be the first task of all people (I presume some provision of food will come via divine means, but certainly only until food production and distribution infrastructure is again working), and until the infrastructure is restored, it won't be temple work that will take precedence.  Once the immediate infrastructural needs have been met, the next major task for church members will be missionary work, and as this progresses temple work will finally begin to become more earnest, not only proxy work for the dead, but also for the living -- all those new converts amongst the 4 billion people who are left.  The 4 billion non-members need to hear the gospel, too!  And the 4 billion will be having children all the while, too, meaning that missionary work will never be complete until the end of the 1,000 years.  How long will it take before the temples become literal ordinance factories?  It might very well take a century or more.  Infrastructure isn't going to magically be restored.  And remember that the members of the church will be getting married, having children, and will still need to work to support their families.  Just because it will be the Millennium does not mean that humans will be able to just sit back and chill.  The divine command that men will earn their bread by the sweat of their brow will not have been rescinded.  And neither will the veil be lifted, nor will free agency eliminated.  Life will be greatly improved, no wars, disease gone, and so forth, but men will still be mortal, and be required to live as mortals.

2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

It’s not as bad as it seems. Unless, for whatever unjust reason, people that didn’t  get a chance to accept the gospel in mortality get an improved chance to accept the gospel in spirit prison, most have them will reject the message. By my calculations, this should save hundreds of billions of hours of millennial temple work.

Thoughts?

Why would most reject the message in the spirit prison?  Informed that the choice is between accepting Christ voluntarily or suffering for your own sins, how many would prefer the latter?  Obviously some will, otherwise why bother to have a telestial kingdom at all?  But I don't see why most would reject.  

The other question is how long they remain in the Spirit World.  If the number of humans is truly 108 billion (arguable), and the first came forth 50,000 years ago (don't the scientists believe that the first came forth a LOT longer ago?), then the first were in the SW for 50,000 years, and the ones who died 3,000 years ago have only been there that long.  Is it fair that some get 50,000 years to accept the gospel while some others get short shrift?  Maybe time doesn't flow the same way in the SW as it does here.

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Preface: The highest grade I ever got in math was a C+, so hopefully the math here isn’t too bad, but I tried to approximate as much as possible to blur the parts that require a working brain.

Okay.

The earth has approximately 8 billion people on it right now. The LDS church’s population is about 16 million (which I’d guess to be the high water mark). That means approximately one fifth of one percent of humanity is currently on track for exaltation, assuming all of those ~16 million members stay active, enter into and keep all of their temple covenants, and so on (this is  an unfair standard for 16 million people to live up to, but it feels more generous to give them all the benefit of the doubt)

Humans showed up, we’ll say 50,000 years ago, though scientific estimates vary. In the history of mankind, it is estimated (again, there are that approximately 108 billion members of this invasive ape species have come and gone. Of the ~108 billion humans ever to have lived, we can be generous again and say that 30 million of them received the teaching and ordinances necessary to reach the celestial kingdom during their time here.

This means that only about .027% of humanity can be considered exaltable. Leaving basically all of those 108 billion people to be taught in the hereafter and 108 billion names that will need their temple work done.

In other words, if every one of those hypothetical 30 million all-time members did continuous temple work and only temple work, it would take about a week to complete just the proxy endowments. 

Now, that’s assuming they don’t need to physically go into a temple to complete the work in the millennium (I don’t remember hearing about this notion, but it seems reasonable, assuming the god of the Bible is personally reigning over the whole earth in a 1000 year welcome back party).

It’s not as bad as it seems. Unless, for whatever unjust reason, people that didn’t  get a chance to accept the gospel in mortality get an improved chance to accept the gospel in spirit prison, most have them will reject the message. By my calculations, this should save hundreds of billions of hours of millennial temple work.

Thoughts?

All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desires of their heart. (D&C 137:7-9)

This passage pretty much sums it up.  There will be many who are exalted and many who are not.  We really do not know who is on which side so that is why we do temple work for everyone.  

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Ouagadougou]

4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Preface: The highest grade I ever got in math was a C+, so hopefully the math here isn’t too bad, but I tried to approximate as much as possible to blur the parts that require a working brain.

Okay.

The earth has approximately 8 billion people on it right now. The LDS church’s population is about 16 million (which I’d guess to be the high water mark). That means approximately one fifth of one percent of humanity is currently on track for exaltation, assuming all of those ~16 million members stay active, enter into and keep all of their temple covenants, and so on (this is  an unfair standard for 16 million people to live up to, but it feels more generous to give them all the benefit of the doubt)

Humans showed up, we’ll say 50,000 years ago, though scientific estimates vary. In the history of mankind, it is estimated (again, there are that approximately 108 billion members of this invasive ape species have come and gone. Of the ~108 billion humans ever to have lived, we can be generous again and say that 30 million of them received the teaching and ordinances necessary to reach the celestial kingdom during their time here.

This means that only about .027% of humanity can be considered exaltable. Leaving basically all of those 108 billion people to be taught in the hereafter and 108 billion names that will need their temple work done.

In other words, if every one of those hypothetical 30 million all-time members did continuous temple work and only temple work, it would take about a week to complete just the proxy endowments. 

Now, that’s assuming they don’t need to physically go into a temple to complete the work in the millennium (I don’t remember hearing about this notion, but it seems reasonable, assuming the god of the Bible is personally reigning over the whole earth in a 1000 year welcome back party).

It’s not as bad as it seems. Unless, for whatever unjust reason, people that didn’t  get a chance to accept the gospel in mortality get an improved chance to accept the gospel in spirit prison, most have them will reject the message. By my calculations, this should save hundreds of billions of hours of millennial temple work.

Thoughts?

There are way more refugees in the world than there are members of the LDS church; this is the reality of the world today.  IMO, the church is very small on the global scale--and as you pointed out in your post--just .027% of humanity are technically considered "exaltable."

I personally don't worry about "exaltation" or temple work for those who are dead, because I think there so many people alive today that are in need of our help.    

https://www.unhcr.org/figures-at-a-glance.html

[Calm]

9 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

In other words, if every one of those hypothetical 30 million all-time members did continuous temple work and only temple work, it would take about a week to complete just the proxy endowments. 

And this is an issue for what reason?  Especially give 1000 years within which to find the time.  Takes more than a week to springclean the house.  A week of temple work would be a nice "retreat", team building exercise even with every member ever helping out.  What a blowout celebration when done.

[FunOnlineMan]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I am in the midst of a bad cold and in the midst of the coughing and sniffling my brain doesn't want to focus on the math at the moment, but as for the qualitative issues you raise...

Please don’t focus on the math. Nobody should. Math is what computers eat.

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I am not sure how you think only .027% can be considered exaltable.  What did they do (or not do) that makes it impossible to exalt them?

My understanding is that exaltation comes by way of ordinances and covenants. 

 

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Why would most reject the message in the spirit prison?  Informed that the choice is between accepting Christ voluntarily or suffering for your own sins, how many would prefer the latter?  Obviously some will, otherwise why bother to have a telestial kingdom at all?  But I don't see why most would reject.  

Don’t most reject the message now?

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The other question is how long they remain in the Spirit World.  If the number of humans is truly 108 billion (arguable), and the first came forth 50,000 years ago (don't the scientists believe that the first came forth a LOT longer ago?), 

I tried to choose a median estimate. The hard part is determining when we became us. When we went from apes to naked apes to this mess. Finding the point in that spectrum where the first purebred humans split off is a difficult determination, given the nature of the evidence. Have you found a historical population estimate that you prefer?

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

then the first were in the SW for m50,000 years, andied 3,000 years ago   50,000 years to accept the gospel while some others get short shrift?  Maybe time doesn't flow the same way in the SW as it does here.

Even if time does flow differently in the spirit world, the numbers don’t look good. 

[FunOnlineMan]

7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desires of their heart. (D&C 137:7-9)

This passage pretty much sums it up.  There will be many who are exalted and many who are not.  We really do not know who is on which side so that is why we do temple work for everyone.  

But they are taught the same message as the rest of us. Even if god organizes a missionary dream team, can they affect the work to the degree needed to save even 10% of the gentile pool?

[FunOnlineMan]

9 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

There are way more refugees in the world than there are members of the LDS church; this is the reality of the world today.  IMO, the church is very small on the global scale--and as you pointed out in your post--just .027% of humanity are technically considered "exaltable."

I personally don't worry about "exaltation" or temple work for those who are dead, because I think there so many people alive today that are in need of our help.    

https://www.unhcr.org/figures-at-a-glance.html

How pragmatic. If you don’t mind me asking, does this mean you don’t attend the temple?

[FunOnlineMan]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

And this is an issue for what reason?  Especially give 1000 years within which to find the time.  Takes more than a week to springclean the house.  A week of temple work would be a nice "retreat", team building exercise even with every member ever helping out.  What a blowout celebration when done.

I guess the way I worded it makes it seem small, but that timeframe is if all ~30 million members worked every second of that week. To me, that’s a lot of work. It would take like (zero math being used for this estimate) a million temples could accomplish. 

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

But they are taught the same message as the rest of us. Even if god organizes a missionary dream team, can they affect the work to the degree needed to save even 10% of the gentile pool?

It is not really the same.  First, in the spirit world the missionary force is probably in the billions if one counts the numbers of people who died young and the converts there over thousands of years.  Second, the missionary message is much more powerful there.  For example where we are people might say "Where is evidence of the Book of Mormon".    One does not need to dig up evidence on the other side.  All the evidence one needs is standing right before them.  They can talk to Nephites and Lamanites directly.  It will be whole new ball game and the people who continue to reject the gospel will do so like those who reject the sun that blazes up in the noon day sky;

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

They can talk to Nephites and Lamanites directly. 

IIRC Laman and Lemuel were confronted by an angel and the effect was only short lived. People can be very stubborn when it comes to changing their beliefs.

[FunOnlineMan]

 

9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Second, the missionary message is much more powerful there.  For example where we are people might say "Where is evidence of the Book of Mormon".    One does not need to dig up evidence on the other side.  All the evidence one needs is standing right before them.  They can talk to Nephites and Lamanites directly.  It will be whole new ball game and the people who continue to reject the gospel will do so like those who reject the sun that blazes up in the noon day sky;

I find this to be a wildly favorable system for people who never heard the gospel in their earthly state. They must have been so vigilant in the war in heaven to have been awarded such a gilded path. 

[Ouagadougou]

10 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

How pragmatic. If you don’t mind me asking, does this mean you don’t attend the temple?

No, I do not go to the temple; I probably go to church four to six times a year I would say at this point, mainly for utilitarian purposes.  That is, I think most LDS members are good people and strive to live a clean life, so attending when I feel like it can maybe be a benefit; however, I don't accept most of the church's truth claims.  

Furthermore, I have attended the temple (many times) in the past, but feel that temple work is just, in a way, busy work to keep members preoccupied.  Some members really enjoy the temple, so I don't want to paint a picture that it is all bad, I just have a different opinion.  I think my energy and time are of more value if directed toward those alive today who are in need of assistance; I try to help out at homeless shelters or soup kitchens.  

Finally, I personally gain more spiritually when I spend time in nature, or by meditating, or doing something with my family than going to the temple.  For me, the concept of a "temple" is now a state of mind and not an actual place.  

[FunOnlineMan]

 

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Finally, I personally gain more spiritually when I spend time in nature, or by meditating, or doing something with my family than going to the temple.  For me, the concept of a "temple" is now a state of mind and not an actual place.  

Yeah, I used to like chillin in the celestial room, but I would have rather just walked upstairs than go through a session to get in there. 

Which is what you get from just walking up a mountain. 

Again, for believers, there is a lot more to the temple than meditating, obviously. 

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Furthermore, I have attended the temple (many times) in the past, but feel that temple work is just, in a way, busy work to keep members preoccupied.  Some members really enjoy the temple, so I don't want to paint a picture that it is all bad, I just have a different opinion.  I think my energy and time are of more value if directed toward those alive today who are in need of assistance; I try to help out at homeless shelters or soup kitchens.  

Finally, I personally gain more spiritually when I spend time in nature, or by meditating, or doing something with my family than going to the temple.  For me, the concept of a "temple" is now a state of mind and not an actual place.  

It does not have to be either or.  Members don't have to go to the temple every day.  Once a month for a couple of hours is considered good.  One can find other time to go out in nature or assist in soup kitchens.  There is time in our lives to do a lot of things.  It comes down to priorities.

[Ouagadougou]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

It does not have to be either or.  Members don't have to go to the temple every day.  Once a month for a couple of hours is considered good.  One can find other time to go out in nature or assist in soup kitchens.  There is time in our lives to do a lot of things.  It comes down to priorities.

It also comes down to $...you can't enter the temple without paying tithing; 10% of my income just to enter the temple for a few hours?  Hard pass for me...plus I like to drink tea. 😀