what is our position on the Caravan

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/10/19/americas/caravan-mexico-border/index.html

Exactly:

Quote

Tapachula, Mexico (CNN)Honduran migrants in a massive caravan surged across a bridge leading to Mexico on Friday before they were halted in a chaotic confrontation with a phalanx of Mexican police in riot gear.

Chanting and cheering migrants pushed through or climbed over a steel gate until police threw tear gas and smoke canisters and pushed the migrants back. Video showed coughing and weeping migrants collapsed on the bridge. Several police and an undetermined number of migrants were injured.

As night fell, thousands of migrants remained packed together and exposed to the elements on the Suchiate River bridge connecting Tecun Uman, Guatemala, and Tapachula, Mexico, according to CNN crews on the ground.

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Vance]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually, congressmen of both parties were present at that friendly baseball game.  Most of the killers or wannabe "brown shirts" are from the totalitarian Right, like the murderer in Charlottesville.

Again, your source of new is lacking.  The attack occurred during a practice session of the republican team members.  There were no democrats there.

Sorry, but murder is wrong no matter who does it.

But brown shirts are associated with National SOCIALISM.  Which is just a variant of the totalitarian left.

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is completely illegitimate to list Soros as bankrolling the caravan.  He is not.  Moreover, this is merely another fake Trumpism designed to put a target on the backs of  his opponents so that his followers will go out and make bombs to mail to those very targets, or to go out and get a sniper rifle and get rid of these horrible "enemies of the people."  The Brown Shirts are listening carefully to their Fuhrer for orders.  Kristallnacht is coming soon.

This is overwrought nonsense. Even if Soros is bankrolling the caravan, that does not justify labeling disapproval of it as anti-Semitism or comparison to Nazi Germany. I didn’t even know (or care) that Soros is Jewish. That doesn’t influence my thinking one way or the other. 

I happen to admire Ben Shapiro as a pundit, but I’m altogether indifferent to the fact that he’s Jewish except to the extent that we share Judeo-Christian values. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Vance]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yep.  a big Trump lie.

Again, your source for news is suspect.  That was Obama's big lie.

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, Vance said:

Big lie?  As in "if you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan"?

Red herring. Leave the logical fallacies at the door, please  

[Robert F. Smith]

6 minutes ago, Vance said:

????  You weren't aware of this fact?  You need a better source for news.

If this approach would be acceptable for the Mexicans, why not the US?

After all,  a 7000 strong army is on approach with the stated intention of invading the US.

False.  There is no "army."   They have no weapons.  It is a caravan of hapless families.  They cannot move one inch without permission of the Mexican Army.  Sounds like the nonsense one hears at a Trump rally, wh ich is exactly the same sort of idiocy heard at Hitler rallies decades ago.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Exactly:

 

Exactly what?

Seems to me there was an effort to halt the caravan and the crowd defied it and pushed their way through. Surely seems like force to me. 

[Vance]

Quote

New estimates cited by El Universal, a Mexican newspaper, say the caravan is now 14,000 strong. According to the Washington Times, some in the invasion caravan are looking for work, which makes them illegal immigrants — not asylum-seekers.

The invading army grows.

[Robert F. Smith]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Exactly what?

Seems to me there was an effort to halt the caravan and the crowd defied it and pushed their way through. Surely seems like force to me. 

Again.  The migrant caravan cannot move an inch unless the Mexican authorities allow it.  You are a reporter and you have no conception of the real world?

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Vance said:

But brown shirts are associated with National SOCIALISM.  Which is just a variant of the totalitarian left.

This is a tiresome argument. Just because socialism was in the name of the Nazi party doesn't mean they were socialists. They were a far-right organization, while communism is far-left. Sure, totalitarian governments tend to act the same no matter which direction (left, right) they go, but calling Nazism socialism just because of the name is rather puerile.

The official name of North Korea is "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea." If you say that Nazis were socialist because their name is National Socialism, then by the same logic you would have to argue that North Korea is a democratic republic. Is that your position? If not, then don't use the same logic and argue the same about Nazis.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Again.  The migrant caravan cannot move an inch unless the Mexican authorities allow it.  You are a reporter and you have no conception of the real world?

Please curb the personal attacks. 

The fact that they moved against the blockade in defiance of authority is by definition force. It doesn’t really matter how ineffectual the government was at enforcing its authority. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, Vance said:

Again, your source for news is suspect.  That was Obama's big lie.

Trump used that as one of his claims during his run for Pres.  As soon as he attained that office, he immediately began an effort to destroy the ACA.  You need a history lesson.

[Vance]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

False.  There is no "army."   They have no weapons.

And you know this how?  From your unreliable news sources?

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

  It is a caravan of hapless families.

That is NOT what the video shows.

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

  They cannot move one inch without permission of the Mexican Army. 

That doesn't make it any better.

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Sounds like the nonsense one hears at a Trump rally, wh ich is exactly the same sort of idiocy heard at Hitler rallies decades ago.

You know, you should give up this Trump is Hitler bovine excrement. 

[Robert F. Smith]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Please keep the personal attacks to yourself. 

That is a professional matter.  Either you live in the real world of accurate reportage, or you don't. Claiming that an unarmed caravan can impose force on the Mexican govt is absurd.  The Mexicans can allow the caravan to proceed, but that has nothing to do with "force."  You used the word "force,"  even though there can be no justification in fact for such use.  Mexican policy is to embarrass the USA in such matters, and that is a well-deserved embarrassment.  Were I the Pres of Mexico, I would follow the same policy.

[Scott Lloyd]

45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Trump used that as one of his claims during his run for Pres.  As soon as he attained that office, he immediately began an effort to destroy the ACA.  You need a history lesson.

It’s a  falsehood that Obama expressed repeatedly, “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor; if you like your plan you can keep your plan.” It’s a broken pledge that’s ignominious in its perfidy. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Vance]

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

This is a tiresome argument. Just because socialism was in the name of the Nazi party doesn't mean they were socialists. They were a far-right organization, while communism is far-left. Sure, totalitarian governments tend to act the same no matter which direction (left, right) they go, but calling Nazism socialism just because of the name is rather puerile.

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

The official name of North Korea is "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea." If you say that Nazis were socialist because their name is National Socialism, then by the same logic you would have to argue that North Korea is a democratic republic. Is that your position? If not, then don't use the same logic and argue the same about Nazis.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

That is a professional matter.  Either you live in the real world of accurate reportage, or you don't. Claiming that an unarmed caravan can impose force on the Mexican govt is absurd.  The Mexicans can allow the caravan to proceed, but that has nothing to do with "force."  You used the word "force,"  even though there can be no justification in fact for such use.  Mexican policy is to embarrass the USA in such matters, and that is a well-deserved embarrassment.  Were I the Pres of Mexico, I would follow the same policy.

It’s an attack no matter what you call it. 

If you are intent on invading my home in the face of my intent to stop you, you are by definition engaging in force, regardless of how weak or ineffectual my resistance might be. 

[Robert F. Smith]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s false that Obama said repeatedly, “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor; if you like your plan you can keep your plan.” It’s a broken pledge that’s ignominious in its perfidy. 

The ACA is a carbon copy of Gov Mitt Romney's bipartisan health plan in Massachusetts.

Trump supported the ACA in his run for office, promising that one could keep it, and that preexisting conditions would be honored.  Whose lie are we going to examine?

[Vance]

7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Trump used that as one of his claims during his run for Pres.

WOW!!  Again you have demonstrated that your source of news is faulty.

7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

  As soon as he attained that office, he immediately began an effort to destroy the ACA.

Good.  It is a nightmare foisted upon the American people in the dark of night.  And has resulted in the dramatic increase in health care costs.

7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

  You need a history lesson.

You need a better source of information.

 

[halconero]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No one is more contemptuous of anti-Semitism than I. But it does strike me as a stretch to link it to disapproval of the caravan snaking it’s way up to our southern border. 

Please understand where I'm coming from. I have no problem with discomfort regarding Soros' funding of various Democratic/Liberal initiatives.

That said, as someone with a very good ear to the ground on immigration and national security policy, the word "Soros" has very quickly taken on the same character as old anti-semitic tropes regarding an international cabal of Jewish bankers, financiers, and influencers acting as the world's puppet masters.

[Vance]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

The ACA is a carbon copy of Gov Mitt Romney's bipartisan health plan in Massachusetts.

Actually, it wasn't.  Romney care required subsidization by the Federal government.  No such magic source of funding is available for the disaster known as Obamacare.  

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Trump supported the ACA in his run for office, promising that one could keep it, and that preexisting conditions would be honored. 

Which is still true.  If you like Obamacare, you can keep Obamacare.  And preexisting conditions are still covered. (Although, that is really not insurance.  You can't by homeowners insurance after your house burns down.)

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Whose lie are we going to examine?

Good question.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s an attack no matter what you call it. 

If you are intent on invading my home in the face of my intent to stop you, you are by definition engaging in force, regardless of how weak or ineffectual my resistance might be. 

These are not invasions.  Why do you insist on using military jargon?  These are not military matters, nor home invasions.  Your personal decision is not at issue in border security matters.  The armed forces of Mexico and the USA presumably have power to stop the caravan -- if it is the intention of either govt.  Allowing a caravan  to proceed does not constitute an invasion, but is a policy decision of a govt.  Do we really want to mischaracterize such matters?  What advantage does that give us?

[Vance]

How about Trumps lie that democrats agitators infiltrated Trump rallies?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/18/undercover-video-shows-democrats-saying-they-hire-/

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, Vance said:

Actually, it wasn't.  Romney care required subsidization by the Federal government.  No such magic source of funding is available for the disaster known as Obamacare.  

Medicaid and Medicare are still the warp and woof of American healthcare, with supplemental plans from the health insurance companies.  That has always been part of Romneycare/Obamacare. 

2 minutes ago, Vance said:

Which is still true.  If you like Obamacare, you can keep Obamacare.  And preexisting conditions are still covered. (Although, that is really not insurance.  You can't by homeowners insurance after your house burns down.).......................

Then why the large effort by Trump to destroy the ACA?  Of course he lied.

[Vance]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

These are not invasions.  Why do you insist on using military jargon?  These are not military matters, nor home invasions.  Your personal decision is not at issue in border security matters.  The armed forces of Mexico and the USA presumably have power to stop the caravan -- if it is the intention of either govt.  Allowing a caravan  to proceed does not constitute an invasion, but is a policy decision of a govt.  Do we really want to mischaracterize such matters?  What advantage does that give us?

??????

So, if the police don't stop a crime it is no longer a crime?