USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: I was under the impression that you will suffer endlessly just in knowing you aren’t with god or that you had all he tools necessary or whatever and fell short. In any case, this would be a separate subject from perfect knowledge. One I’m happy to discuss elsewhere, by the way. "Eternal punishment" is, according to JSJr, merely, "G-d's punishment." Has nothing to do with long-term suffering. See, e.g., D&C section 19. Edited July 16, 2018 by USU78 2
mfbukowski Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: I was under the impression that you will suffer endlessly just in knowing you aren’t with god or that you had all he tools necessary or whatever and fell short. In any case, this would be a separate subject from perfect knowledge. One I’m happy to discuss elsewhere, by the way. No, we do not believe that. I will leave that for another to take on- I don't have time, sorry. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/04/i-have-a-question/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-book-of-mormon-scriptures-on-eternal-hell-for-the-wicked?lang=eng
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: LOL Define "rational means". Read that article on truth again. There ain't no "rational means"- just paradigms that work for certain purposes. Every important decision you have made in your life were by "irrational means"- your choice of mate, whether you are gay or straight- even what you think is "rational" is based on emotion because someone taught you what "rational" is and you bought it hook line and sinker. Positivism is dead. Google that if you have not gotten the newsflash!! I am sorry to be rude- I just have a busy life! Have a good one!! Truly! Religion, to me qualifies as one of those “certain purposes.” Also, declaring positivism dead in a thread about perfect knowledge is a pretty easy hill to defend. From what source then, should I draw these important cosmological details I will presumably need to not be punished? Do I just adopt a worldview and hope that my axiology lines up with god’s or whomever will ultimately decide who gets to sit at what table in the hereafter?
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, USU78 said: "Eternal punishment" is, according to JSJr, merely, "G-d's punishment." Has nothing to do with long-term suffering. See, e.g., D&C section 19. 28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: No, we do not believe that. I will leave that for another to take on- I don't have time, sorry. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/04/i-have-a-question/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-book-of-mormon-scriptures-on-eternal-hell-for-the-wicked?lang=eng I’m still happy to discuss the afterlife with you folks. I just need you to start the thread, since I’m still in forum prison, having not yet accepted the truth of 25 posts
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 37 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: I’m still happy to discuss the afterlife with you folks. Is this a rabbit hole? Mebbe. Nobody's shut us down, though, so why not continue? Do you specifically object to D&C 19? 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, USU78 said: Is this a rabbit hole? Mebbe. Nobody's shut us down, though, so why not continue? Do you specifically object to D&C 19? So I’m not the only one flinching every time I hit “submit?” I guess I’ll trust the more experienced members on this one. In short, I have supplanted religion in my life with my own version of super-dead atheist positivism, so I object to D&C 19 on principle alone. To get into the specifics I’d be curious as to what the telestial kingdom boasts as reasons to chose the higher kingdoms if your suffering is only temporary?
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: So I’m not the only one flinching every time I hit “submit?” I guess I’ll trust the more experienced members on this one. In short, I have supplanted religion in my life with my own version of super-dead atheist positivism, so I object to D&C 19 on principle alone. To get into the specifics I’d be curious as to what the telestial kingdom boasts as reasons to chose the higher kingdoms if your suffering is only temporary? First let's get this out of the way: In LDS thought, each member of the G-dhead presides over the resurrected beings in a kingdom: the Father over the Celestial; the Son over the Terrestrial; and the Holy Ghost over the Telestial. Thus, each resurrected person [essentially everybody] gets to live "with G-d." This is why Mark was talking about Mormons being universalists [lower case "u"]. That said, now to turn to your next question. In D&C section 76, et seq, it speaks of those going to the Celestial Kingdom as being children and heirs to "all the Father hath." How that works exactly is not explained, only that one gets to reach one's full potential as homo dei only by recreating one's self in G-d's image, whereupon He says, "Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee." Since that which defines G-d in a word better than any other is Creator, it is assumed/believed that we then join with G-d in continuing to create throughout eternity. We thus become demiurges to His Creator/G-d/King. And what we create is environments where more beings like ourselves can be born into, whereupon they follow us, to the extent they are able, to become homo dei like ourselves. This is no little thing, and something to be sought for. To me the more interesting question than the one you posit is how we are supposed to get our hands around the concept of a G-d Who creates environments for even the least and most poorly functioning among us that are so well designed for our eternal happiness. Why should He bother? Why not just rip us down into quantum building materials and start again from scratch? 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, USU78 said: First let's get this out of the way: In LDS thought, each member of the G-dhead presides over the resurrected beings in a kingdom: the Father over the Celestial; the Son over the Terrestrial; and the Holy Ghost over the Telestial. Thus, each resurrected person [essentially everybody] gets to live "with G-d." This is why Mark was talking about Mormons being universalists [lower case "u"]. That said, now to turn to your next question. In D&C section 76, et seq, it speaks of those going to the Celestial Kingdom as being children and heirs to "all the Father hath." How that works exactly is not explained, only that one gets to reach one's full potential as homo dei only by recreating one's self in G-d's image, whereupon He says, "Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee." Since that which defines G-d in a word better than any other is Creator, it is assumed/believed that we then join with G-d in continuing to create throughout eternity. We thus become demiurges to His Creator/G-d/King. And what we create is environments where more beings like ourselves can be born into, whereupon they follow us, to the extent they are able, to become homo dei like ourselves. This is no little thing, and something to be sought for. To me the more interesting question than the one you posit is how we are supposed to get our hands around the concept of a G-d Who creates environments for even the least and most poorly functioning among us that are so well designed for our eternal happiness. Why should He bother? Why not just rip us down into quantum building materials and start again from scratch? I understand the concept of the godhead presiding over the kingdoms. My understanding was also that in, say, the telestial kingdom, you’d be super bummed that you can only like eternally pass the time with the Holy Ghost and a bunch of adultererous goats or whatever while the sheep get to make worlds and creatures with the father. And by “super bummed,” I mean “suffering.” And by “suffering,” I mean “suffering for as long as you are in the telestial kingdom.” And by “as long as you are in the telestial kingdom,” I mean “forever,” right?
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: I understand the concept of the godhead presiding over the kingdoms. My understanding was also that in, say, the telestial kingdom, you’d be super bummed that you can only like eternally pass the time with the Holy Ghost and a bunch of adultererous goats or whatever while the sheep get to make worlds and creatures with the father. And by “super bummed,” I mean “suffering.” And by “suffering,” I mean “suffering for as long as you are in the telestial kingdom.” And by “as long as you are in the telestial kingdom,” I mean “forever,” right? There are, naturally, speculations that "kingdom hopping" might occur. But that's speculation, though born of tender feelings for those whose lives here are less than they probably ought to be. The eternal punishment thing is a relic of Puritanism and not officially part of Mormonism. See D&C section 19.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 1 minute ago, USU78 said: There are, naturally, speculations that "kingdom hopping" might occur. But that's speculation, though born of tender feelings for those whose lives here are less than they probably ought to be. The eternal punishment thing is a relic of Puritanism and not officially part of Mormonism. See D&C section 19. Okay, but if I have to spend the rest of forever progression-damned or just not with the entire godhead or whatever it is that I miss out on as a result of being punished for the poor choices I made in my mortal and semi-non-mortal estates, wouldn’t I be suffering? And since it’s forever, wouldn’t that make it endless?
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: Okay, but if I have to spend the rest of forever progression-damned or just not with the entire godhead or whatever it is that I miss out on as a result of being punished for the poor choices I made in my mortal and semi-non-mortal estates, wouldn’t I be suffering? And since it’s forever, wouldn’t that make it endless? We can only speculate here, of course, on how it works. But we're assured that judgment will be just, and that the great reconciliation through the Atonement wipes away all tears, restores all that's been lost, and that we'll feel nothing but an overwhelming sense of gratitude at receiving far more than we'll know we deserve. That's comforting, isn't it? I remain curious to hear your response to this: Quote To me the more interesting question than the one you posit is how we are supposed to get our hands around the concept of a G-d Who creates environments for even the least and most poorly functioning among us that are so well designed for our eternal happiness. Why should He bother? Why not just rip us down into quantum building materials and start again from scratch? 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 Just now, USU78 said: We can only speculate here, of course, on how it works. But we're assured that judgment will be just, and that the great reconciliation through the Atonement wipes away all tears, restores all that's been lost, and that we'll feel nothing but an overwhelming sense of gratitude at receiving far more than we'll know we deserve. That's comforting, isn't it?... If you skip all the speculation in the middle, you’re left with only the first and last sentences. The answer, then, is no. I don’t find comfort in speculative salvations. I wish I could. So does my mom, my mission president, my grandma, etc., but I don’t. 59 minutes ago, USU78 said: To me the more interesting question than the one you posit is how we are supposed to get our hands around the concept of a G-d Who creates environments for even the least and most poorly functioning among us that are so well designed for our eternal happiness. Why should He bother? Why not just rip us down into quantum building materials and start again from scratch? I didn’t mean to dodge this, I just wanted to make sure we showed the endless suffering topic a good time, since we risked modfire to discuss it in the first place. I’d say he owes us at least that much for putting us through earthly tests after creating us to be so poorly functioning. I also wouldn’t mind being like quantum-scrapped. Why hog all this handsome matter?
mfbukowski Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 6 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: Religion, to me qualifies as one of those “certain purposes.” Also, declaring positivism dead in a thread about perfect knowledge is a pretty easy hill to defend. From what source then, should I draw these important cosmological details I will presumably need to not be punished? Do I just adopt a worldview and hope that my axiology lines up with god’s or whomever will ultimately decide who gets to sit at what table in the hereafter? [ temple content removed] Oh sure it is certain purpose- who said otherwise? Wittgenstein said this and I subscribe to it fully: Quote It strikes me that a religious belief could only be something like a passionate commitment to a system of reference. Hence, although it's a belief, it really is a way of living, or a way of assessing life. It's passionately seizing hold of this interpretation. Instruction in a religious faith, therefore would have to take the form of a portrayal, a description, of that system of reference, while at the same time being an appeal to conscience. And this combination would have to result in the pupil himself, of his own accord, passionately taking hold of the system of reference. It would be as though someone were first to let me see the hopelessness of my situation and then showed me the means of rescue until, of my own accord, or not at any rate led to it by my instructor, I ran to it and grasped it. That is perfect Alma 32. And yes it is all so easy. The one investigating makes it hard with all that confusion of language games. No sorry I was so abrupt. You do the Moroni 10: 4-5 thing If that doesn't work, you are on your own in doing the Wittgenstein and Alma things. And where did I learn this? I recall my brilliant 3 year old son answering that very question perfectly- he understood the universe at age three. His answer? "My brain told me" and he was right! All this is consistent with the temple recommend interview, answered honestly, which is the only standard one has to be "true blue Mormon" so no it doesn't matter what other Mormons believe. There is another thread where I discuss the epistemology in more detail if you like so I don't have to repeat it- follow the conversation between me and "hope for things" http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70767-mormon-transhumanism-new-interpreter-article/
mfbukowski Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: In short, I have supplanted religion in my life with my own version of super-dead atheist positivism, so I object to D&C 19 on principle alone. Oh great I love fundamentalists! Sola Scientia! A wonderful religion with flaws unfortunately. It doesn't know what the word "purpose" or "meaning" means Edited July 16, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Oh great I love fundamentalists! Sola Scientia! A wonderful religion with flaws unfortunately. It doesn't know what the word "purpose" or "meaning" means My favorite part, yes. 1
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 51 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: If you skip all the speculation in the middle, you’re left with only the first and last sentences. The answer, then, is no. I don’t find comfort in speculative salvations. I wish I could. So does my mom, my mission president, my grandma, etc., but I don’t. I didn’t mean to dodge this, I just wanted to make sure we showed the endless suffering topic a good time, since we risked modfire to discuss it in the first place. I’d say he owes us at least that much for putting us through earthly tests after creating us to be so poorly functioning. I also wouldn’t mind being like quantum-scrapped. Why hog all this handsome matter? Ah ... you're sounding like my then fifteen year old daughter. She remains angry that life isn't more like preschool. No all wise all powerful all forgiving teachers for me: all sadistic punishers for thee. With no learning that it's up to me to work for justice and peace. 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 1 minute ago, USU78 said: Ah ... you're sounding like my then fifteen year old daughter. She remains angry that life isn't more like preschool. No all wise all powerful all forgiving teachers for me: all sadistic punishers for thee. With no learning that it's up to me to work for justice and peace. She doesn’t sound so bad. At what grade level should this life be considered? Because the classroom management is terrible.
Calm Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) On 7/16/2018 at 11:21 AM, FunOnlineMan said: I understand the concept of the godhead presiding over the kingdoms. My understanding was also that in, say, the telestial kingdom, you’d be super bummed that you can only like eternally pass the time with the Holy Ghost and a bunch of adultererous goats or whatever while the sheep get to make worlds and creatures with the father. And by “super bummed,” I mean “suffering.” And by “suffering,” I mean “suffering for as long as you are in the telestial kingdom.” And by “as long as you are in the telestial kingdom,” I mean “forever,” right? There is folklore well known in the Church that supposedly JS said if one could see the Telestial Kingdom one would end one's life to get there, so there may or may not be regret. There may instead be satisfaction that one got exactly what one wanted and the suffering is only in comparison to what the other kingdoms are like. They are, after all, all kingdoms of glory. Hard for me to imagine God created any of them as places of eternal punishment or unhappiness. What would that serve if punishment could not bring about change? Edited December 9, 2018 by Calm 2
mfbukowski Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: My favorite part, yes. Well at least you are consistent. But as you know that doesn't really work. Positivism is still dead. I suppose along with the god that you think you understood. Edited July 16, 2018 by mfbukowski
RevTestament Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 4 hours ago, USU78 said: "Eternal punishment" is, according to JSJr, merely, "G-d's punishment." Has nothing to do with long-term suffering. See, e.g., D&C section 19. Yep, it refers to the scope of the punishment rather than the time of the punishment. In other words the punishment can be infinitely severe in scope.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Well at least you are consistent. But as you know that doesn't really work. Positivism is still dead. I suppose along with the god that you think you understood. Shall we chase our metaphysical tails on this for a while longer? What I think I understand is that god created a universe where positivism is dead, therefore damning me, his idiot child that just wants cogent arguments and demonstrable proof.
mfbukowski Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: "pure knowledge? An imagination....a bliss reached by only ingesting LSD..... Nah, tried it I saw it animations of the Aztec calendar Stone on my ceiling but no wisdom. They were dancing up a storm. It was more like the movie Coco but no message unfortunately. Edited July 16, 2018 by mfbukowski
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, Calm said: There is folklore well known in the Church that supposedly JS said if one could see the Telestial Kingdom one would commit suicide to get there, so there may or may not be regret. There may instead be satisfaction that one got exactly what one wanted and the suffering is only in comparison to what the other kingdoms are like. They are, after all, all kingdoms of glory. Hard for me to imagine God created any of them as places of eternal punishment or unhappiness. What would that serve if punishment could not bring about change? So if I understand the implications here, I can begin preparations to eat drink and be merry, for I was mistaken, and all is well in Zion. Heaven here I come, baby.
Calm Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: So if I understand the implications here, I can begin preparations to eat drink and be merry, for I was mistaken, and all is well in Zion. Heaven here I come, baby. Depends on what type of person you want to be. If you want to be eternally a totally self centered useless couch potato, go for it There is also the purification process as no sin can be tolerated in the presence of God and therefore his kingdoms, so your couch might be rather uncomfortable for a time depending what you have done to others to ensure you get your merrymaking times. Edited July 16, 2018 by Calm
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Calm said: Depends on what type of person you want to be. If you want to be eternally a totally self centered useless couch potato, go for it There is also the purification process as no sin can be tolerated in the presence of God and therefore his kingdoms. This honestly does make pascal’s wager a little more palatable.
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