Pres. Lorenzo Snow's vindication

[strappinglad]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

How about I make up a story (faith promoting of course) about one of my ancestors that was a church leader, and claim that my grandparent told me this story, and then I'll submit it to the Ensign to see if some editor will publish it?  Then in another 50 years after this story has been retold multiple times, everyone will just accept it as gospel truth.  Faith promoting rumors, this is the stuff that really keeps the base energized.  

Welcome to parts of the Old Testament!

" the Lord Himself " .I suppose he could have said " The angel Gabriel" , or an " angel of the Lord " or some such. He didn't. He could have said " it was revealed unto me " . Seems to me Pres. Snow narrowed to goal posts quite a bit.

Edited June 29, 2018 by strappinglad

[ALarson]

13 hours ago, Duncan said:

how do you read "the Lord himself" revealed it to Pres.Snow?

That the Lord was the one who answered his prayer.  President Snow believed he received revelation or inspiration from "the Lord himself".  There is nothing in your quotes in the OP that causes me to believe the Lord actually appeared face to face with President Snow.

[jkwilliams]

14 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That the Lord was the one who answered his prayer.  President Snow believed he received revelation or inspiration from "the Lord himself".  There is nothing in your quotes in the OP that causes me to believe the Lord actually appeared face to face with President Snow.

As far as I can tell, the story of the visit of the Savior is secondhand, through Pres. Snow's granddaughter, whose account was shared in 1933 by LeRoi Snow. It may have happened the way she described, but there's nothing in any of the quotes in this thread that corroborates that. I'm not suggesting that anyone should doubt the story, just that IMO it isn't corroborated, despite the thread title.

[Duncan]

48 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That the Lord was the one who answered his prayer.  President Snow believed he received revelation or inspiration from "the Lord himself".  There is nothing in your quotes in the OP that causes me to believe the Lord actually appeared face to face with President Snow.

i don't agree and what do you make about the "eminent mormon" saying that the God came to current prophet in person? if someone told me that Sir Ring Starr came in person, I would believe that Sir Ringo Starr actually came to something and occupied space. it seems too coincidental to me that someone said that within months of this experience. I don't buy into this belief that people like Elder Grant and Pres. Cannon and Arthur Winter, people who were sustained as prophets and apostles and worked with them were misled as to the idea that Christ conversed with them, either through revelation or coming in person. I can see that being an idea with the members but not the leaders, they knew how they got revelation

[ALarson]

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i don't agree and what do you make about the "eminent mormon" saying that the God came to current prophet in person? if someone told me that Sir Ring Starr came in person, I would believe that Sir Ringo Starr actually came to something and occupied space. 

I don't put much stock in an anonymous source...just being honest here.  How many active members would believe something if it was an anti statement from a source like this?

I have seen nothing written from President Snow and an actual witness who stated that "God came to" "Lorenzo Snow in person".  Do you have a quote?  If so, I would definitely put more stock in that.

Edited June 29, 2018 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

18 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i don't agree and what do you make about the "eminent mormon" saying that the God came to current prophet in person? if someone told me that Sir Ring Starr came in person, I would believe that Sir Ringo Starr actually came to something and occupied space. it seems too coincidental to me that someone said that within months of this experience. I don't buy into this belief that people like Elder Grant and Pres. Cannon and Arthur Winter, people who were sustained as prophets and apostles and worked with them were misled as to the idea that Christ conversed with them, either through revelation or coming in person. I can see that being an idea with the members but not the leaders, they knew how they got revelation

President Hinckley said revelation came to him through impressions and feelings, just like everyone else in the church. I don't know why we expect church leaders to receive revelation any differently.

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

President Hinckley said revelation came to him through impressions and feelings, just like everyone else in the church. I don't know why we expect church leaders to receive revelation any differently.

but it also comes through other forms, either for the Church at large or personally

[Duncan]

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I don't put much stock in an anonymous source...just being honest here.  How many active members would believe something if it was an anti statement from a source like this?

I have seen nothing written from President Snow and an actual witness who stated that "God came to" "Lorenzo Snow in person".  Do you have a quote?  If so, I would definitely put more stock in that.

and unless something weird happens discovery wise you probably won't. IIRC, after President Snow's death a disgruntled person (family member?) through out a trunk of his papers, his son Oliver tried to stop them but didn't make it time. I am under the impression the trunk was thrown into the ocean or burned. What survives of Pres. Snow's is stuff he wrote to others and stuff from pre 1890 but what exactly was in that trunk remains a mystery, maybe he kept diaries, letters going back to Joseph Smith' s day, who knows

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

and unless something weird happens discovery wise you probably won't. IIRC, after President Snow's death a disgruntled person (family member?) through out a trunk of his papers, his son Oliver tried to stop them but didn't make it time. I am under the impression the trunk was thrown into the ocean or burned. What survives of Pres. Snow's is stuff he wrote to others and stuff from pre 1890 but what exactly was in that trunk remains a mystery, maybe he kept diaries, letters going back to Joseph Smith' s day, who knows

Wow....I hadn't heard about this happening.  I agree with you that I wish they'd been preserved so we could read them and it's tragic if they truly were destroyed.  Thanks for the addition info, Duncan.

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

but it also comes through other forms, either for the Church at large or personally

Perhaps it does. I'm just saying this isn't a clear-cut case of that. 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow....I hadn't heard about this happening.  I agree with you that I wish they'd been preserved so we could read them and it's tragic if they truly were destroyed.  Thanks for the addition info, Duncan.

oooo..I wish they would just show up somehow...how sad.

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow....I hadn't heard about this happening.  I agree with you that I wish they'd been preserved so we could read them and it's tragic if they truly were destroyed.  Thanks for the addition info, Duncan.

I've never heard that before. I would love to see a source.

[ALarson]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

I've never heard that before. I would love to see a source.

Me Too!

Duncan, can you point us to a link or source where we can read about this?  Thanks!

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Me Too!

Duncan, can you point us to a link or source where we can read about this?  Thanks!

awe!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just about to me lunch!!! nothing comes between me and a Big Mac🍔🍟🥤

Edited June 29, 2018 by Duncan

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, Duncan said:

awe!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just about to me lunch!!! nothing comes between me and a Big Mac🍔🍟🥤

Ha!  Ok....I can be patient  

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Ha!  Ok....I can be patient  

Thank you!!!! I know exactley the book i got it from but it may take awhile to get it! the book cites the source for it and I want to be accurate

Edited June 29, 2018 by Duncan

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Ha!  Ok....I can be patient  

I found a smidgen of the story but I am awaiting for more of it, but BYU Studies Quarterly 53:2, 2014, p181 it's a review by William Hartley about a book that was published on Lorenzo Snow (which book I am awaiting which fleshes the story out a bit more) and Hartley said that "Family tradition says that a Snow descendant burned a trunk-load of his papers, diaries, and correspondence. Therefore, for Snow’s presidency years, Horne found that the best available sources are journals of Snow’s close associates, newspaper reports, and the Journal History of the Church", now where the idea of family tradition comes from or that source, I anticipate will be cited in the book on Snow

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I found a smidgen of the story but I am awaiting for more of it, but BYU Studies Quarterly 53:2, 2014, p181 it's a review by William Hartley about a book that was published on Lorenzo Snow (which book I am awaiting which fleshes the story out a bit more) and Hartley said that "Family tradition says that a Snow descendant burned a trunk-load of his papers, diaries, and correspondence. Therefore, for Snow’s presidency years, Horne found that the best available sources are journals of Snow’s close associates, newspaper reports, and the Journal History of the Church", now where the idea of family tradition comes from or that source, I anticipate will be cited in the book on Snow

There was certainly an undercurrent of fear in some earlier Mormon circles about revealing the inner workings of the church. It's the reason Kate Carter of the DUP burned the records of the Cedar City stake.

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

There was certainly an undercurrent of fear in some earlier Mormon circles about revealing the inner workings of the church. It's the reason Kate Carter of the DUP burned the records of the Cedar City stake.

the DUP? is that a restaurant or something? kinda like IHOP?

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I found a smidgen of the story but I am awaiting for more of it, but BYU Studies Quarterly 53:2, 2014, p181 it's a review by William Hartley about a book that was published on Lorenzo Snow (which book I am awaiting which fleshes the story out a bit more) and Hartley said that "Family tradition says that a Snow descendant burned a trunk-load of his papers, diaries, and correspondence. Therefore, for Snow’s presidency years, Horne found that the best available sources are journals of Snow’s close associates, newspaper reports, and the Journal History of the Church", now where the idea of family tradition comes from or that source, I anticipate will be cited in the book on Snow

Thanks, Duncan.  If that happened....what an awful thing to do!  I wonder what they felt was in these papers, diaries and correspondence that led to them burning these?  I do wish we still had them.

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Thanks, Duncan.  If that happened....what an awful thing to do!  I wonder what they felt was in these papers, diaries and correspondence that led to them burning these?  I do wish we still had them.

I dunno, maybe they went nuts or something or got mad at someone and burned the stuff, who knows. I am awaiting the book that IIRC has more of the story. That kind of stuff happens constantly, sometimes it gets uploaded to youtube😈

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, Duncan said:

the DUP? is that a restaurant or something? kinda like IHOP?

Daughters of the Utah Pioneers. 

[Jeanne]

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

There was certainly an undercurrent of fear in some earlier Mormon circles about revealing the inner workings of the church. It's the reason Kate Carter of the DUP burned the records of the Cedar City stake.

Holy Moly...never heard this before...most women can't keep a secret..but ..burning records.. What inner workings would need to be burned?  The church and the Book of Life is one huge record..Wow..I am appalled...intriqued...and nosey!😋

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Holy Moly...never heard this before...most women can't keep a secret..but ..burning records.. What inner workings would need to be burned?  The church and the Book of Life is one huge record..Wow..I am appalled...intriqued...and nosey!😋

we have to await and see if this book fleshes it all out!

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/28/2018 at 2:14 PM, hope_for_things said:

Believe in what?  Should we wait 30 years until after Trump dies for some distant relative to claim that he had some miraculous experience, and then just accept that claim as factually accurate?  Is this how we should operate in the world?  Believe in anything that confirms your preconceived biases regardless of how tenuous the evidence is, just because somebody somewhere claimed something happened without any corroboration.  

I know, I have pioneer church ancestors.  How about I make up a story (faith promoting of course) about one of my ancestors that was a church leader, and claim that my grandparent told me this story, and then I'll submit it to the Ensign to see if some editor will publish it?  Then in another 50 years after this story has been retold multiple times, everyone will just accept it as gospel truth.  Faith promoting rumors, this is the stuff that really keeps the base energized.  

Works for those who take anti-Joseph reminisces told 50 years after the event or the conversation for historical fact.