Pres. Lorenzo Snow's vindication

[Duncan]

Sometime ago there was some doubt as to the veracity of the story that President Lorenzo Snow told about seeing the Saviour in the Salt Lake Temple, following the death of President Wilford Woodruff in Sept. 1898. Despite the fact that Prof. William James copied part a letter he received from an "Eminent Mormon" in 1899, saying that the author believes that God had come in person and talked to the present Prophet. It was in his book, "Varieties of Religious Experience" Aside from that witness the Church Historian Press today released the last part of President George Q. Cannon's journal and he wrote in part on the 13th of Sept. 1898 the following, 

"President Snow arose and stated his feelings. He told how he had felt very depressed, almost discouraged in his feelings, in view of the load that rested upon him, and he had gone before the Lord, clothed in his temple robes, and sought the mind of the Lord. In answer to his prayer, the Lord had revealed to him that the First Presidency should be organized, and who his counselors should be, and he had felt thankful for this."

https://www.churchhistorianspress.org/george-q-cannon/1890s/1898/09-1898?lang=eng

Add to that what another attendee in the same meeting, then Elder Heber J. Grant of the Twelve wrote, "Brethren, I'm glad to know you are inspired of the Lord. It has been made known to me from the Lord Himself that we are to reorganize and that I am to serve as President. And brethren, you will be surprised at my counselors. They are George Q. Cannon and Joseph F. Smith." Afterward President Grant took a poll. He talked to each of the other brethren and said, "Were you surprised at the counselors?" Every person said "No."  Journal of Heber J. Grant, September 1898, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah. Cited in Truman G. Madsen, Presidents of the Church, 2004

At the very least the story was reported within days of it happening and wasn't a myth started by anyone else later on.

[hope_for_things]

Thanks for sharing, this is interesting stuff.  Definitely gives more support for an experience that President Snow had.  However, the Cannon statement doesn't say anything about a visitation, it just says it was an answer to prayer.  Do you think it possible that this story was later embellished? 

It seems that is what happens with a lot of stories both inside and outside the church. 

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for sharing, this is interesting stuff.  Definitely gives more support for an experience that President Snow had.  However, the Cannon statement doesn't say anything about a visitation, it just says it was an answer to prayer.  Do you think it possible that this story was later embellished? 

It seems that is what happens with a lot of stories both inside and outside the church. 

I think that's where the Elder Grant quotation of what Pres. Snow said, "the Lord himself" comes in  and whoever this "Eminent Mormon " was believed it was a vision of Christ himself, the "in person" part of the letter. Now the million dollar question is who the "Eminent Mormon" was!

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

I think that's where the Elder Grant quotation of what Pres. Snow said, "the Lord himself" comes in  and whoever this "Eminent Mormon " was believed it was a vision of Christ himself, the "in person" part of the letter. Now the million dollar question is who the "Eminent Mormon" was!

The Grant quote certainly doesn’t rule out the possibility of a visitation type experience, but you could also expect someone to use that kind of wording to describe an answer to prayer.  None of this evidence describes a visitation event that I can see.  

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The Grant quote certainly doesn’t rule out the possibility of a visitation type experience, but you could also expect someone to use that kind of wording to describe an answer to prayer.  None of this evidence describes a visitation event that I can see.  

if someone came to you "in person" how would that not be an actual visit? or if someone said that a visitor came to see you "himself" that means, to me, that that person came to you in person and not through any other means, not a carrier pidgeon, not an emissary, not an email but they themselves

Edited June 28, 2018 by Duncan

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

if someone came to you "in person" how would that not be an actual visit? or if someone said that a visitor came to see you "himself" that means, to me, that that person came to you in person and not through any other means, not a carrier pidgeon, not an emissary, not an email but they themselves

I wouldn't conflate those different quotes together.  Can you say who this Eminent Mormon author was that sent a letter to James where that letter was quoted in his book?  Did this person have access to and communications with President Snow where he/she could have learned of an experience that Snow may have shared in private?  Or was this just a typical belief that is shared by many regular members that who are under the impression that God meets regularly in person with church leaders. 

I've heard this very idea discussed multiple times at church.  I have a bishop right now who has given lengthy testimony on this very idea, that all the Apostles have a "special interview" with the savior when they are called.  

[Duncan]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

I wouldn't conflate those different quotes together.  Can you say who this Eminent Mormon author was that sent a letter to James where that letter was quoted in his book?  Did this person have access to and communications with President Snow where he/she could have learned of an experience that Snow may have shared in private?  Or was this just a typical belief that is shared by many regular members that who are under the impression that God meets regularly in person with church leaders. 

I've heard this very idea discussed multiple times at church.  I have a bishop right now who has given lengthy testimony on this very idea, that all the Apostles have a "special interview" with the savior when they are called.  

That's why I said earlier who knows who exactly this "Eminent Mormon" was and how they had access to Pres. Lorenzo Snow but they wrote in 1899 to Prof. James that Christ had come in person to the current prophet of late, which seems convenient based on the idea that it's been told by Pres. Cannon, Grant and others who were at this meeting that Pres. Snow told them what had happened. Either it's further evidence that Christ did come or it's as you say a common belief. My opinion though is that at the very least it was told very early on and it wasn't made up. 

People have been scouring William James' stuff to find this letter or a diary entry that says where he got this letter from, but no such luck. I suspect and have no direct evidence but I think it could have been Pres. Seymour B. Young, who was a General Authority at the time. His son, Levi Edgar Young, took a class from William James in the 1890's when he attended Harvard. I have no acess to either Pres. Seymour Young's or Levi Edgar Young's materials to prove it though.

[hope_for_things]

29 minutes ago, Duncan said:

That's why I said earlier who knows who exactly this "Eminent Mormon" was and how they had access to Pres. Lorenzo Snow but they wrote in 1899 to Prof. James that Christ had come in person to the current prophet of late, which seems convenient based on the idea that it's been told by Pres. Cannon, Grant and others who were at this meeting that Pres. Snow told them what had happened. Either it's further evidence that Christ did come or it's as you say a common belief. My opinion though is that at the very least it was told very early on and it wasn't made up. 

People have been scouring William James' stuff to find this letter or a diary entry that says where he got this letter from, but no such luck. I suspect and have no direct evidence but I think it could have been Pres. Seymour B. Young, who was a General Authority at the time. His son, Levi Edgar Young, took a class from William James in the 1890's when he attended Harvard. I have no acess to either Pres. Seymour Young's or Levi Edgar Young's materials to prove it though.

You're conjecturing about things that these quotes don't say.  We don't know that the Eminent Mormon had access to Pres. Snow.  Unless there is more context to that quote that you can provide, you're just making things up that aren't in the actual quote.   Next you are extending your conjecture to the Grant and Cannon quotes, neither of which say what you're asserting they say.  

[Duncan]

29 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

You're conjecturing about things that these quotes don't say.  We don't know that the Eminent Mormon had access to Pres. Snow.  Unless there is more context to that quote that you can provide, you're just making things up that aren't in the actual quote.   Next you are extending your conjecture to the Grant and Cannon quotes, neither of which say what you're asserting they say.  

You're right in the sense that this story was not a myth or embellished later on, it was known and discussed in these journals by the actual participants. The William James letter form 1899 says, that "we believe that God has come in person and spoken to our prophet and revelator" Arthur Winter, a secretary said the reorganization was a "surprise to us all" and "totally unexpected". based on eyewitness accounts I don't know how much more obvious it has to be. The Lorenzo Snow journals are non existent but there are others that have survived. To me, it doesn't seem that difficult to connect the story, Pres. Snow related the story and some of them wrote it down on Sept. 13, 1898. William James got a letter from somebody who said the same in 1899 and then the son, Le Roi related it again years later based on what his niece had said. 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

You're right in the sense that this story was not a myth or embellished later on, it was known and discussed in these journals by the actual participants. The William James letter form 1899 says, that "we believe that God has come in person and spoken to our prophet and revelator" Arthur Winter, a secretary said the reorganization was a "surprise to us all" and "totally unexpected". based on eyewitness accounts I don't know how much more obvious it has to be. The Lorenzo Snow journals are non existent but there are others that have survived. To me, it doesn't seem that difficult to connect the story, Pres. Snow related the story and some of them wrote it down on Sept. 13, 1898. William James got a letter from somebody who said the same in 1899 and then the son, Le Roi related it again years later based on what his niece had said. 

Whoever wrote "we believe that God has come in person and spoke to our prophet" doesn't tell us whether that person spoke with President Snow about a specific visitation experience that Snow related, or whether that person is just expressing a general belief in prophets that includes a belief that all prophets have encounters with deity.  

As for the reorganization being a "surprise to us all" and "totally unexpected" that could be for numerous reasons, perhaps the timing was odd, remember that first presidency reorganizations didn't exactly have smooth transitions in the early church.  

None of your evidence is "obvious".  Its still conjecture.  We don't know that Snow related any story about a visitation because we have no contemporary evidence directly supporting that claim.  All you've done is shown that it was a possibility we should consider, but no actual evidence to support it that I can see.  

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Whoever wrote "we believe that God has come in person and spoke to our prophet" doesn't tell us whether that person spoke with President Snow about a specific visitation experience that Snow related, or whether that person is just expressing a general belief in prophets that includes a belief that all prophets have encounters with deity.  

As for the reorganization being a "surprise to us all" and "totally unexpected" that could be for numerous reasons, perhaps the timing was odd, remember that first presidency reorganizations didn't exactly have smooth transitions in the early church.  

None of your evidence is "obvious".  Its still conjecture.  We don't know that Snow related any story about a visitation because we have no contemporary evidence directly supporting that claim.  All you've done is shown that it was a possibility we should consider, but no actual evidence to support it that I can see.  

if it isn't obvious then I can't help you

[ALarson]

18 hours ago, Duncan said:

Sometime ago there was some doubt as to the veracity of the story that President Lorenzo Snow told about seeing the Saviour in the Salt Lake Temple, following the death of President Wilford Woodruff in Sept. 1898. Despite the fact that Prof. William James copied part a letter he received from an "Eminent Mormon" in 1899, saying that the author believes that God had come in person and talked to the present Prophet. It was in his book, "Varieties of Religious Experience" Aside from that witness the Church Historian Press today released the last part of President George Q. Cannon's journal and he wrote in part on the 13th of Sept. 1898 the following, 

"President Snow arose and stated his feelings. He told how he had felt very depressed, almost discouraged in his feelings, in view of the load that rested upon him, and he had gone before the Lord, clothed in his temple robes, and sought the mind of the Lord. In answer to his prayer, the Lord had revealed to him that the First Presidency should be organized, and who his counselors should be, and he had felt thankful for this."

https://www.churchhistorianspress.org/george-q-cannon/1890s/1898/09-1898?lang=eng

Add to that what another attendee in the same meeting, then Elder Heber J. Grant of the Twelve wrote, "Brethren, I'm glad to know you are inspired of the Lord. It has been made known to me from the Lord Himself that we are to reorganize and that I am to serve as President. And brethren, you will be surprised at my counselors. They are George Q. Cannon and Joseph F. Smith." Afterward President Grant took a poll. He talked to each of the other brethren and said, "Were you surprised at the counselors?" Every person said "No."  Journal of Heber J. Grant, September 1898, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah. Cited in Truman G. Madsen, Presidents of the Church, 2004

At the very least the story was reported within days of it happening and wasn't a myth started by anyone else later on.

Thanks for posting this, Duncan.  I think it's interesting....but I see nothing there stating that Pres. Snow actually saw and conversed (face to face) with the Savior.  I'm not claiming that never happened, but all of the above still reads to me that he prayed and received an answer from the Lord.

[hope_for_things]

9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if it isn't obvious then I can't help you

Well, if you come up with some more quotes I would be interested in reading them.  I find a careful study of history quite interesting, and I enjoyed reading these quotes, even though I differ with you on interpretation.  

[Duncan]

38 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Whoever wrote "we believe that God has come in person and spoke to our prophet" doesn't tell us whether that person spoke with President Snow about a specific visitation experience that Snow related, or whether that person is just expressing a general belief in prophets that includes a belief that all prophets have encounters with deity.  

As for the reorganization being a "surprise to us all" and "totally unexpected" that could be for numerous reasons, perhaps the timing was odd, remember that first presidency reorganizations didn't exactly have smooth transitions in the early church.  

None of your evidence is "obvious".  Its still conjecture.  We don't know that Snow related any story about a visitation because we have no contemporary evidence directly supporting that claim.  All you've done is shown that it was a possibility we should consider, but no actual evidence to support it that I can see.  

I am reading Elder Anthon Lund's diary, I have Franklin D. Richards, Marriner W. Merrill and John Henry Smith's but they didn't say anything, which sometimes happens. Elder Lund wrote

"Bro. [Lorenzo] Snow then arose and said that once when he felt 
the weight of the heavy responsibility which had come upon him he 
went and offered the sign[s] of the Priesthood and asked the Lord 
for direction. At once he received an answer to his prayer and it came 
as clear and with power that he knew the Lord’s will. It was that the 
First Presidency should be organized at once."

he doesn't specifically say that Christ came but Pres. Snow told them all something and they wrote different aspects of it, Elder Grant said the Lord Himself, which to me says the Lord came in person like the Eminent Mormon said. There is some belief that a Benjamin Cluff Jr. who was a President of BYU was a friend of William James' and he wrote him and also wrote to the 1st Presidency, there is some evidence of that but it's possible that Cluff was told the experience by the 1st Presidency and relayed it to James' but I don't know for sure

[hope_for_things]

35 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I am reading Elder Anthon Lund's diary, I have Franklin D. Richards, Marriner W. Merrill and John Henry Smith's but they didn't say anything, which sometimes happens. Elder Lund wrote

"Bro. [Lorenzo] Snow then arose and said that once when he felt 
the weight of the heavy responsibility which had come upon him he 
went and offered the sign[s] of the Priesthood and asked the Lord 
for direction. At once he received an answer to his prayer and it came 
as clear and with power that he knew the Lord’s will. It was that the 
First Presidency should be organized at once."

he doesn't specifically say that Christ came but Pres. Snow told them all something and they wrote different aspects of it, Elder Grant said the Lord Himself, which to me says the Lord came in person like the Eminent Mormon said. There is some belief that a Benjamin Cluff Jr. who was a President of BYU was a friend of William James' and he wrote him and also wrote to the 1st Presidency, there is some evidence of that but it's possible that Cluff was told the experience by the 1st Presidency and relayed it to James' but I don't know for sure

That statement by Lund makes it seem less likely that Snow had a separate visitation experience.  Rather, it describes a strong prayer experience.  

I don't have access to the MHA journal online for the more recent issues, but it looks like their summer 2016 edition had an essay on this topic.  I'd like to get a copy to read, but might have to wait until they make it available for non subscribers like myself.  

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/jmormhist.42.3.0155?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

That statement by Lund makes it seem less likely that Snow had a separate visitation experience.  Rather, it describes a strong prayer experience.  

I don't have access to the MHA journal online for the more recent issues, but it looks like their summer 2016 edition had an essay on this topic.  I'd like to get a copy to read, but might have to wait until they make it available for non subscribers like myself.  

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/jmormhist.42.3.0155?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

same, wish you could pay for it. Although I don't think that Hatch would have had acess to the Cannon diary, it was just released yestarday, but maybe he did

[Nevo]

33 minutes ago, Duncan said:

same, wish you could pay for it. Although I don't think that Hatch would have had acess to the Cannon diary, it was just released yestarday, but maybe he did

Hatch doesn't quote the Cannon diary but he does quote the Journal History, which says essentially the same thing (except for the part about LS being in temple robes).

[Guest]

17 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The Grant quote certainly doesn’t rule out the possibility of a visitation type experience, but you could also expect someone to use that kind of wording to describe an answer to prayer.  None of this evidence describes a visitation event that I can see.  

You could, but why work so hard to make that assumption. Why not just be believing? That is rhetorical, BTW?  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

You could, but why work so hard to make that assumption. Why not just be believing? That is rhetorical, BTW?  

Believe in what?  Should we wait 30 years until after Trump dies for some distant relative to claim that he had some miraculous experience, and then just accept that claim as factually accurate?  Is this how we should operate in the world?  Believe in anything that confirms your preconceived biases regardless of how tenuous the evidence is, just because somebody somewhere claimed something happened without any corroboration.  

I know, I have pioneer church ancestors.  How about I make up a story (faith promoting of course) about one of my ancestors that was a church leader, and claim that my grandparent told me this story, and then I'll submit it to the Ensign to see if some editor will publish it?  Then in another 50 years after this story has been retold multiple times, everyone will just accept it as gospel truth.  Faith promoting rumors, this is the stuff that really keeps the base energized.  

[jkwilliams]

I appreciate this thread, as I'd heard the story in the past about how the Savior appeared to Lorenzo Snow but had never looked into it. Apparently the event was more akin to what we would call personal revelation than an actual vision of Jesus.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Believe in what?  Should we wait 30 years until after Trump dies for some distant relative to claim that he had some miraculous experience, and then just accept that claim as factually accurate?  Is this how we should operate in the world?  Believe in anything that confirms your preconceived biases regardless of how tenuous the evidence is, just because somebody somewhere claimed something happened without any corroboration.  

I know, I have pioneer church ancestors.  How about I make up a story (faith promoting of course) about one of my ancestors that was a church leader, and claim that my grandparent told me this story, and then I'll submit it to the Ensign to see if some editor will publish it?  Then in another 50 years after this story has been retold multiple times, everyone will just accept it as gospel truth.  Faith promoting rumors, this is the stuff that really keeps the base energized.  

I understand how the world operates, believe nothing, question everything, and if any evidence points to what we disbelieved to be truth, crush it under an avalanche of doubt and debate! 

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I appreciate this thread, as I'd heard the story in the past about how the Savior appeared to Lorenzo Snow but had never looked into it. Apparently the event was more akin to what we would call personal revelation than an actual vision of Jesus.

that's what we are debating!!!!!!!! Elder Grant would say he appeared and whoever this eminent Mormon was, said he came in person!!!! 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that's what we are debating!!!!!!!! Elder Grant would say he appeared and whoever this eminent Mormon was, said he came in person!!!! 

I don’t see President Grant saying he appeared. 

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t see President Grant saying he appeared. 

how do you read "the Lord himself" revealed it to Pres.Snow? to me that means he came in person, not by any other means but he came in person to tell Pres. Snow what he wanted him to do. Like, his physical presence was here to tell him something

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Duncan said:

how do you read "the Lord himself" revealed it to Pres.Snow? to me that means he came in person, not by any other means but he came in person to tell Pres. Snow what he wanted him to do. Like, his physical presence was here to tell him something

I guess I don’t read it that way. I read it as receiving revelation, which may or may not mean a visitation.