Korach and Korihor

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

When you have top down leadership, the more you can control those under you, the more secure the power   If you can control how many ear rings are allowed, whether you can have a tattoo, whether they can grow a beard, how many steps they can take on the sabbath etc. then you are assured absolute authority. Anyone questioning those little things can be challenged and labeled as in open rebellion against God. It is a story as old as time.  

Oddly, Christ exercised none of those qualities. In fact, He himself rebelled against them. Which ultimately caused church leaders to deal with his rebellion in the harshest way they could. They won the battle, but lost the war.    That is often the outcome. 

Jesus decidedly won the war against sin and death after finishing His atoning sacrifice and realizing the resurrection. He afterward taught His doctrine as the risen Lord (3 Nephi 11), including the role of the twelve (“Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you,” 3 Nephi 12:1). This theme is reiterated in His summary of the fulness of His gospel (3 Nephi 27) to these twelve, particularly in verse 21 when He says “Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church.”

So, He is indeed telling them what to do and how we should heed them. Who else should? Whose example should we follow in handling His power and authority?

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Presentism. There was no distance in ancient Israel between theology and politics, religious observance and nationalism. It was all one thing. Now that we're beyond theocracy, rugged individualism as it pertains to religion is not some kind of existential threat to the tribe/congregation.

You were present? Is that how you are able to speak with such authority?

The chaos demon was such a threat to nascent Creation that G-d slew chaos and imposed Cosmos upon it.

The idea that G-d's order prevailing over those who would fragment that order for their selfish aims is ancient indeed. It is to this day a part of the fabric of our thought, our literature, our art, our worship.

It is an absurdity that one could impose the notion where it doesn't belong. It belongs everywhere.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

Of course the leader defines himself as a proxy for God. So, rebellion against the leader is equated with rebellion against God. If the adherent gets what he/she believes is a contrary communication, that has to be viewed as error by definition as this would diminish authority to the point of being meaningless.  Too many questions makes the process too democratic and the leader cannot countenance that as his views lose their privilege and too many decisions need to be justified. The adherent just needs to obey and that is it. I think this is the lesson from these two examples.

Or, leaders such as Alma and Moses are truly appointed by God. Seeking to overthrow them, then, is seeking to overthrow God, whose response to the usurper was not charitable. That is also a lesson from these two. I don’t believe they are worthy or appropriate examples of democratic governance. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

40 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You were present? Is that how you are able to speak with such authority?

The chaos demon was such a threat to nascent Creation that G-d slew chaos and imposed Cosmos upon it.

The idea that G-d's order prevailing over those who would fragment that order for their selfish aims is ancient indeed. It is to this day a part of the fabric of our thought, our literature, our art, our worship.

It is an absurdity that one could impose the notion where it doesn't belong. It belongs everywhere.

Chaos demon, eh? Have we moved away from the scriptures and into Buffy The Vampire Slayer lore?

If you need some assistance with the concept of presentism, I could probably point you toward a few resources. Outside of the Joss Whedon canon, mind you.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Gray

[USU78]

16 minutes ago, Gray said:

Chaos demon, eh? Have we moved away from the scriptures and into Buffy The Vampire Slayer lore?

If you need some assistance with the concept of presentism, I could probably point you toward a few resources. Outside of the Joss Whedon canon, mind you.

https://biologos.org/blogs/archive/genesis-1-and-a-babylonian-creation-story

Some reading which may, but won't necessarily, assuage.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

When you have top down leadership, the more you can control those under you, the more secure the power   If you can control how many ear rings are allowed, whether you can have a tattoo, whether they can grow a beard, how many steps they can take on the sabbath etc. then you are assured absolute authority. Anyone questioning those little things can be challenged and labeled as in open rebellion against God. It is a story as old as time.  

Oddly, Christ exercised none of those qualities. In fact, He himself rebelled against them. Which ultimately caused church leaders to deal with his rebellion in the harshest way they could. They won the battle, but lost the war.    That is often the outcome. 

All too true, caliboy.  That is the singular advantage of having an organization which is largely horizontal, rather than vertical, and which constantly militates against unrighteous dominion.  If the LDS leaders were not humble, that could be a real problem.

Of course Hugh Nibley inveighed against the BYU grooming standards and openly considered them as silly.  In fact, when I arrived at BYU in 1963. those standards did not exist.  However, within a short time, some blue-noses began cracking down, never seeing the irony of forbidding beards in a Church where nearly every President except Joseph Smith and David O. McKay had beards.  By the way, our Sunday School lesson today was #22, "The Lord Looketh on the Heart" (instead of "outward appearance") 1 Sam 16:7.  One can endlessly pile on the ironies.

That would almost be akin to the Amish and Ultra Orthodox Jews abandoning their traditional beards and garb.  Maybe they should do it for PR reasons.  Except that such was in fact tried in Reform and Conservative Judaism, which are now rapidly withering away.

[Robert F. Smith]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Regarding Korihor and. Korach.....What do you think of the similarities between their names, ...............

 

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

Are they really that similar?

Korach:

Korihor:

I would also be curious what connection the names could have.  Are you suggesting that Korihor originally had a different name and changed it to be more like an obscure character from the brass plates?  .................................

Hugh Nibley suggested an Egyptian derivation for Korihor based on ḥeriḥor, name of a high priest of Amon at Thebes ca. 1085 BC – in his LID 20-21,27; WJ 258; ABM 284-286; SC 193.  See the Herihor entry in Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herihor .  He was an army officer and high priest of Libyan extraction.  Herihor Siamum (ḥry-Ḥr sЗ-ʼImn) “Horus-Above, Son of Amun." 

However, that seems very unlikely for phonological as well as chronological reasons, since Nephite Korihor obviously was taken from Jaredite Corihor -- a similarly nasty guy.  Any useful etymology must be derived from Sumero-Akkadian linguistic tradition.

Moreover, Korach seems unrelated to either Egyptian Herihor or Nephite Korihor in morphology.  KJV Korah = Hebrew PN Qoraḥ “Bald” (Levite in Numbers 26:58; KJV Kareah in 2 Kings 25:23; Qrḥ in Arad Ostracon 49:2), from Semitic root qrḥ “bald, bald head,” attested as a name also in Ugaritic Qrḥ, and Akkadian Qar-ḫa-a, and Qa-ri-ḫi (Thamudic and Nabataean Qrḥ, and Arabic Qariḥ, Qaraḥ).[1]  

---

[1] U. Hübner & R. Hutton, “Korah,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, IV:100-101.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Hugh Nibley suggested an Egyptian derivation for Korihor based on ḥeriḥor, name of a high priest of Amon at Thebes ca. 1085 BC – in his LID 20-21,27; WJ 258; ABM 284-286; SC 193.  See the Herihor entry in Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herihor .  He was an army officer and high priest of Libyan extraction.  Herihor Siamum (ḥry-Ḥr sЗ-ʼImn) “Horus-Above, Son of Amun." 

However, that seems very unlikely for phonological as well as chronological reasons, since Nephite Korihor obviously was taken from Jaredite Corihor -- a similarly nasty guy.  Any useful etymology must be derived from Sumero-Akkadian linguistic tradition.

Moreover, Korach seems unrelated to either Egyptian Herihor or Nephite Korihor in morphology.  KJV Korah = Hebrew PN Qoraḥ “Bald” (Levite in Numbers 26:58; KJV Kareah in 2 Kings 25:23; Qrḥ in Arad Ostracon 49:2), from Semitic root qrḥ “bald, bald head,” attested as a name also in Ugaritic Qrḥ, and Akkadian Qar-ḫa-a, and Qa-ri-ḫi (Thamudic and Nabataean Qrḥ, and Arabic Qariḥ, Qaraḥ).[1]  

---

[1] U. Hübner & R. Hutton, “Korah,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, IV:100-101.

Great research, though of course not all bilingual puns need to be exact.

[Robert F. Smith]

Just now, USU78 said:

Great research, though of course not all bilingual puns need to be exact.

Yes, and there are a great many of them.

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Or, leaders such as Alma and Moses are truly appointed by God. Seeking to overthrow them, then, is seeking to overthrow God, whose response to the usurper was not charitable. That is also a lesson from these two. I don’t believe they are worthy or appropriate examples of democratic governance. 

Yes, it comes down to belief and faith or trust, once again. One needs to believe the directed answer to prayer supporting the power structure is correct and trust that the leaders aren't misleading or delusional in their leadership claims.

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

All too true, caliboy.  That is the singular advantage of having an organization which is largely horizontal, rather than vertical, and which constantly militates against unrighteous dominion.  If the LDS leaders were not humble, that could be a real problem.

Of course Hugh Nibley inveighed against the BYU grooming standards and openly considered them as silly.  In fact, when I arrived at BYU in 1963. those standards did not exist.  However, within a short time, some blue-noses began cracking down, never seeing the irony of forbidding beards in a Church where nearly every President except Joseph Smith and David O. McKay had beards.  By the way, our Sunday School lesson today was #22, "The Lord Looketh on the Heart" (instead of "outward appearance") 1 Sam 16:7.  One can endlessly pile on the ironies.

That would almost be akin to the Amish and Ultra Orthodox Jews abandoning their traditional beards and garb.  Maybe they should do it for PR reasons.  Except that such was in fact tried in Reform and Conservative Judaism, which are now rapidly withering away.

The joke when I was at BYU is that neither Christ or Brigham Young could attend. 

[Gray]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

https://biologos.org/blogs/archive/genesis-1-and-a-babylonian-creation-story

Some reading which may, but won't necessarily, assuage.

Thanks for the link. A good read, but not really relevant to the current discussion.

[USU78]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Thanks for the link. A good read, but not really relevant to the current discussion.

The chaos demon Tiamat, his vanquishment by the god, thereby bringing chaos, represented by the waters of Creation, under control and imposing the order of Cosmos.

Your embracement of the chaos of disintegration of God's order in favor of Tiamat's chaos as represented by the trendy "G-d but not organized religion" = Korach/Korihor.

Except that Korach is bald; the emperor has no clothes.

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, USU78 said:

The chaos demon Tiamat, his vanquishment by the god, thereby bringing chaos, represented by the waters of Creation, under control and imposing the order of Cosmos.

Your embracement of the chaos of disintegration of God's order in favor of Tiamat's chaos as represented by the trendy "G-d but not organized religion" = Korach/Korihor.

Except that Korach is bald; the emperor has no clothes.

Tiamat is a goddess, not a demon, and not a he.

Your characterization of ruggedly individual spiritual systems simply fails to land. Yours is an idea that no longer has any meaning in a post-theocratic world, like a warning against sailing off the edge of the world. Sounding brass and tinkling cymbals. There is no theocratic nation state, ergo no threat of throwing the theocratic order into chaos by those who strike it out on their own to find the face of God. No one owns the copyright to God. At this point it's all public domain. Taste that? That's the fresh flavor of freedom, my friend.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Gray

[USU78]

36 minutes ago, Gray said:

Tiamat is a goddess, not a demon, and not a he.

Your characterization of ruggedly individual spiritual systems simply fails to land. Yours is an idea that no longer has any meaning in a post-theocratic world, like a warning against sailing off the edge of the world. Sounding brass and tinkling cymbals. There is no theocratic nation state, ergo no threat of throwing the theocratic order into chaos by those who strike it out on their own to find the face of God. No one owns the copyright to God. At this point it's all public domain. Taste that? That's the fresh flavor of freedom, my friend.

Huh. Thought this was a religious discussion board.

You continue to miss the point: by rebelling against G-d's cosmos, represented by His priesthood, you embrace chaos, affecting thereby the balkanization of mankind into warring tribes.

Besides, we're post nothing. At most at any moment in history we're between then and there. No post is possible. Then will come around again soon enough.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

The joke when I was at BYU is that neither Christ or Brigham Young could attend. 

Correct.  We used to joke at the Y that, if Jesus came on campus with long hair, beard, and sandals, he would immediately be arrested by Campus Police.  Of course, Rabbi Nissim Wernick came to BYU as a doctoral candidate in Religion a bit after me, and he got a waiver on his beard and drinking wine for weekly kiddush.

[Calm]

It is not that they wouldn't be able to come, but that they would have been asked to shave.  Given Brigham's devotion, I suspect he would have shaved before applying as a student, professor, or staff.  Plus Brigham was beardless when younger according to portraits, so only as an older professor he have been asked to shave.

Christ...he had to have been an observant Jew in many ways or there would have been a lot more complaints about him recorded imo.  So not sure if he would have gone on his way leaving behind a pithy saying or gone ahead and shaved.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

This is one I haven't seen before of BY, love the hat. (The other picture is 1850, so still beardless at 49.)

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/person/brigham-young

Edited June 18, 2018 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Hugh Nibley suggested an Egyptian derivation for Korihor based on ḥeriḥor, name of a high priest of Amon at Thebes ca. 1085 BC – in his LID 20-21,27; WJ 258; ABM 284-286; SC 193.  See the Herihor entry in Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herihor .  He was an army officer and high priest of Libyan extraction.  Herihor Siamum (ḥry-Ḥr sЗ-ʼImn) “Horus-Above, Son of Amun." 

However, that seems very unlikely for phonological as well as chronological reasons, since Nephite Korihor obviously was taken from Jaredite Corihor -- a similarly nasty guy.  Any useful etymology must be derived from Sumero-Akkadian linguistic tradition.

Moreover, Korach seems unrelated to either Egyptian Herihor or Nephite Korihor in morphology.  KJV Korah = Hebrew PN Qoraḥ “Bald” (Levite in Numbers 26:58; KJV Kareah in 2 Kings 25:23; Qrḥ in Arad Ostracon 49:2), from Semitic root qrḥ “bald, bald head,” attested as a name also in Ugaritic Qrḥ, and Akkadian Qar-ḫa-a, and Qa-ri-ḫi (Thamudic and Nabataean Qrḥ, and Arabic Qariḥ, Qaraḥ).[1]  

---

[1] U. Hübner & R. Hutton, “Korah,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, IV:100-101.

Thank you for taking the time to look at this. It would appear Korihor was also a bald-faced liar. 

Excuse my lack of sophistication, but to my musical ears Corihor/Korihor seem related to the names Qar-ḫa-a, and Qa-ri-ḫi. No? Why is Korach not related, if it also means bald, bald head. I’m not sure I understand.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

The joke when I was at BYU is that neither Christ or Brigham Young could attend. 

During that time, beards had taken on political meanings that they did not have during the times of Bro Brigham and Jesus. Some folks, even at BYU, tried to portray Jesus as a happy freaky hippy, but I was never comfortable with that characterization of Him.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

It is not that they wouldn't be able to come, but that they would have been asked to shave.  Given Brigham's devotion, I suspect he would have shaved before applying as a student, professor, or staff.  Plus Brigham was beardless when younger according to portraits, so only as an older professor he have been asked to shave.

Christ...he had to have been an observant Jew in many ways or there would have been a lot more complaints about him recorded imo.  So not sure if he would have gone on his way leaving behind a pithy saying or gone ahead and shaved.

My son Abogadissimo worked as a researcher on a book that compiled all the known images of Brother Brigham. IIRC, he learned that it was only a comparatively short time that he was bearded. In either case, I highly doubt he would have defied a standard set by church leaders at the university that bears his name.

It’s odd that some folks hold up his facial hair and that of other bearded patriarchs to justify wearing beards or ridicule BYU dress standards, but throw the same men under the bus for just about anything else they did.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

It is not that they wouldn't be able to come, but that they would have been asked to shave.  Given Brigham's devotion, I suspect he would have shaved before applying as a student, professor, or staff.  Plus Brigham was beardless when younger according to portraits, so only as an older professor he have been asked to shave.

Christ...he had to have been an observant Jew in many ways or there would have been a lot more complaints about him recorded imo.  So not sure if he would have gone on his way leaving behind a pithy saying or gone ahead and shaved.

Given how Christ dealt with the silly rules that had developed in the Jewish religion,  I think Christ would completely eliminate most of the honor code.  Whether he shaved or not would be left to personal agency.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

During that time, beards had taken on political meanings that they did not have during the times of Bro Brigham and Jesus. Some folks, even at BYU, tried to portray Jesus as a happy freaky hippy, but I was never comfortable with that characterization of Him.

It is 2018. Any political meaning that MIGHT have been related to beards disappeared over 50 years ago.  Yet church leaders are still using the university to teach students how to conform to their demands.  No matter how trivial and silly those demands are.  This is outside the realm of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and stepping right in to Pharisee thinking.  Control, control, control.

[Gray]

10 hours ago, USU78 said:

Huh. Thought this was a religious discussion board.

Yes. But it's not strictly an axial age religious discussion board.

 

10 hours ago, USU78 said:

You continue to miss the point: by rebelling against G-d's cosmos, represented by His priesthood, you embrace chaos, affecting thereby the balkanization of mankind into warring tribes.

Actually, the old order resulted in the balkanization of mankind into warring tribes. Haven't you read the Old Testament? Without religious pluralism, the LDS Church could have never gotten off the ground.

 

 

10 hours ago, USU78 said:

Besides, we're post nothing. At most at any moment in history we're between then and there. No post is possible. Then will come around again soon enough.

Pray that it doesn't come to that. If theocratic government returns, it won't be minority religions like the LDS church that make the rules.

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Yes. But it's not strictly an axial age religious discussion board.

 

Actually, the old order resulted in the balkanization of mankind into warring tribes. Haven't you read the Old Testament? Without religious pluralism, the LDS Church could have never gotten off the ground.

 

 

Pray that it doesn't come to that. If theocratic government returns, it won't be minority religions like the LDS church that make the rules.

It is ironic that mormons pray for theocratic government to come back when they will probably be shut out if that ever occurs.