Elder Uchtdorf: Progressive?

[Scott Lloyd]

41 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And since you think there is no significant difference between them, I'm wondering if you can point to a single general conference talk besides Elder Uchtdorf's that acknowledges people sometimes leave because they have thoughtfully struggled and come to the conclusion that the church is just not true? Just one other time in the last 150 years or so should do it...

So how is that supposed to be more effective at getting people to come back? Seems like all it did in your case is help you feel better about yourself for being a leavetaker. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So how is that supposed to be more effective at getting people to come back? Seems like all it did in your case is help you feel better about yourself for being a leavetaker. 

My impression after reading this thread is that this is at least one aspect of what people mean when they use the word 'inclusive': he said something that didn't make me feel bad about leaving.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Had you said, "I infer from his account that he at least has succeeded in many cases to get people to return" rather than " by his own account at least has succeeded in many cases to get people to return." then sure. Agree to disagree. I don't think he implied any such thing but whatever.  Also would have helped if you left the snide personal remark off...

My memory of hearing him give the talk is that it left the impression with me that he had succeeded in many instances in getting people who had been offended to come back. And he might have done so. But in going back and reviewing the talk, I saw that he didn’t come out and say so clearly and directly.

So yes, I should have stated that I was expressing my own inference. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

No doubt I should have been clearer. Would have been better to say "we want you with your flaws (we all have them and we are working on them)." 

Yes, that would have been a better way to say it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My impression after reading this thread is that this is at least one aspect of what people mean when they use the word 'inclusive': he said something that didn't make me feel bad about leaving.

I think that’s an accurate reading. 

Afterthought: Though if I had a loved one who had left the faith, I don’t know that I would want him to feel comfortable about doing so. I might wish for him an Alma-the-younger type experience that scared him right back into the Church. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My impression after reading this thread is that this is at least one aspect of what people mean when they use the word 'inclusive': he said something that didn't make me feel bad about leaving.

I of course believe it's possible for me to feel bad about someone's leaving whilst still honouring the other person's exercise of agency. As I said to our stake president after our training meeting last night, our ward is not perfect, but we get one thing very right: we don't let our new members fall away. We will let them walk away, but that's a very different thing.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I might wish for him an Alma-the-younger type experience that scared him right back into the Church. 

I don't actually think that people can be scared back into the Church, including Alma. Heaps of people get wake-up calls of various kinds. What works is a heart that responds to the love that is present in the Church, in my opinion. It sometimes takes years (decades even), but love is the only thing that ever really works ... because God is love.

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I of course believe it's possible for me to feel bad about someone's leaving whilst still honouring the other person's exercise of agency. As I said to our stake president after our training meeting last night, our ward is not perfect, but we get one thing very right: we don't let our new members fall away. We will let them walk away, but that's a very different thing.

One can honor their agency while earnestly hoping — and even praying — they have a change of heart (see my last post). 

I also think one can disapprove of their action while still honoring their agency. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't actually think that people can be scared back into the Church, including Alma. Heaps of people get wake-up calls of various kinds. What works is a heart that responds to the love that is present in the Church, in my opinion. It sometimes takes years (decades even), but love is the only thing that ever really works ... because God is love.

Maybe so, but my reading of Alma is that his was not a pleasant experience, not at first. 

I don’t think the Lord would hold it against me if I wished something similar happened to one of mine who had strayed. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe so, but my reading of Alma is that his was not a pleasant experience, not at first. 

I don’t think the Lord would hold it against me if I wished something similar happened to one of mine who had strayed. 

Understood. I've actually watched a few stray and held my breath for the almost inevitable wake-up call. I'm always conflicted in such matters. I understand that a loving Heavenly Father will always send such to someone whom He knows is still reachable, but I hate watching it happen because I'm terrible at observing suffering. The short-term compensation comes in offering comfort and support. The long-term compensation, of course, is in seeing the prodigal return.

[mrmarklin]

Elder Uchtdorf is likely,  by Utah standards, a liberal. He’s German. And most Germans buy heavily into universal health coverage and old age pensions. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Elder does also.  

Edited February 7, 2018 by mrmarklin

[kiwi57]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Uchtdorf: "In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations."

So, in fact, some might have left because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Right?

For certain, Elder Uchtdorf is not saying that everyone who leaves does so because they've "found out" that the Church is not true, is he?

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Bednar: "Each individual, each family, each home, and each answer was different."

They really do appear to be in agreement, don't they?

[kiwi57]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I agree, and I haven't found what he's said offensive, like I have with other leaders, namely Pres. Oaks.

Perhaps instead of choosing to take offense at whatever President Oaks has said that you don't like, you might try reading it for understanding.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So how is that supposed to be more effective at getting people to come back? Seems like all it did in your case is help you feel better about yourself for being a leavetaker. 

 

22 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My impression after reading this thread is that this is at least one aspect of what people mean when they use the word 'inclusive': he said something that didn't make me feel bad about leaving.

 

22 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think that’s an accurate reading. 

Afterthought: Though if I had a loved one who had left the faith, I don’t know that I would want him to feel comfortable about doing so. I might wish for him an Alma-the-younger type experience that scared him right back into the Church. 

So little understanding and so much condescension. I was still in the church when Uchtdorf spoke. It helped me feel like I had a place to belong. Reading his talk today actually me feel bad about leaving. The irony is that [edited to add: the rhetoric here from] Elder Bednar and you two make me feel great about leaving! 

 

Edited to add: It has come to my attention that at least one person has interpreted my above statement as saying Scott, Hamba, Bednar, or kiwi "drove" me from the church. I will merely note that I do not think this, nor did I say this. I left for reasons that are wholely my own. I'm sorry for any misinterpretation that may have resulted.

Edited February 8, 2018 by SeekingUnderstanding
clarity

[kiwi57]

3 hours ago, ttribe said:

Why do certain defenders find it so threatening to discover that some who struggle find the disposition and words of one member of the Q12 to be more appealing than others?  Why the need to attack that perception?

What does a defender do? Responds to attacks.

Firstly, instead of assuming that someone finds something "threatening" or has some emotional "need to attack that perception," why not actually engage what is being said?

I don't think anyone minds that some people relate better to the way Elder Uchtdorf speaks than they do to other apostles. If anyone has said that they do, I've missed it. Would you mind pointing it out to me?

What I object to is the attempt to cherry-pick snippets from what Elder Uchtdorf has said, and impute to those snippets an ideological bent that the speaker does not hold. Elder Uchtdorf is, at the very minimum, a believing Latter-day Saint. Which means that he believes that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth; there is no other. He fully upholds the Church's moral teachings. Anyone who imagines him a secret "ally" of some entirely worldly movement or other is not only deluding him/herself, but slandering a good man thereby.

And besides all that, it just isn't true.

Why do certain parties "find it so threatening" if one of their cherished illusions is challenged?

Edited February 7, 2018 by kiwi57

[SeekingUnderstanding]

29 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

So, in fact, some might have left because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Right?

For certain, Elder Uchtdorf is not saying that everyone who leaves does so because they've "found out" that the Church is not true, is he?

They really do appear to be in agreement, don't they?

They aren’t mutually exclusive no. Yet Uchtdorf continually emphasizes things that others don’t. If you don’t want to see it, I can’t make you, but I’m still waiting on an apostle quote (other than Uchtdorf) from general conference stating sometimes people leave because after much consideration they’ve decided the church isn’t true. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

They aren’t mutually exclusive no. Yet Uchtdorf continually emphasizes things that others don’t. If you don’t want to see it, I can’t make you, but I’m still waiting on an apostle quote (other than Uchtdorf) from general conference stating sometimes people leave because after much consideration they’ve decided the church isn’t true. 

I'm not sure what it is you think he's emphasizing/stating/advocating, but if it's the idea that forsaking faith in Jesus Christ and His Church is perfectly fine and justifiable, I don't get that from this statement he made that was quoted in the OP:

Quote

"My dear young friends, my dear brothers and sisters, you can’t have it both ways. You cannot receive the incomprehensible blessings of discipleship while at the same time maintaining your membership records in the Babylon First Ward."

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[kiwi57]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And since you think there is no significant difference between them, I'm wondering if you can point to a single general conference talk delivered by an apostle besides Elder Uchtdorf's that acknowledges people sometimes leave because they have thoughtfully struggled and come to the conclusion that the church is just not true? Just one other time in the last 150 years or so should do it...

Did you notice that he said that they were mistaken when they so concluded?

Quote

 

It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves....

Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction....

It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed....

As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and as one who has seen firsthand the councils and workings of this Church, I bear solemn witness that no decision of significance affecting this Church or its members is ever made without earnestly seeking the inspiration, guidance, and approbation of our Eternal Father. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. God will not allow His Church to drift from its appointed course or fail to fulfill its divine destiny....

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith....

I testify that here you will find the words of eternal life, the promise of blessed redemption, and the pathway to peace and happiness.

 

Elder Uchtdorf does not say that leaving the Church is the right decision.

[Hamba Tuhan]

41 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The irony is that Elder Bednar and you two (there counting Kiwi/Russel/Pahoran) make me feel great about leaving! 

Have you actually read what I've posted above? Is that really enough to make you happy about leaving? 

[Gray]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Ah, a variation on the "my truth" vs. "your truth" nonsense.

I didn't read further because I fundamentally reject this notion. As Ben Shapiro has said, there's no such thing as "my truth." There is only THE truth and opinion.

 

Thanks for speaking your truth!

[Scott Lloyd]

50 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

I don't think anyone minds that some people relate better to the way Elder Uchtdorf speaks than they do to other apostles. If anyone has said that they do, I've missed it. Would you mind pointing it out to me?

I think most everyone recognizes that ttribe's remark was obliquely directed at me, but I'll state for the record that I never said that nor meant it nor implied it.

[kiwi57]

53 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So little understanding and so much condescension. I was still in the church when Uchtdorf spoke. It helped me feel like I had a place to belong. Reading his talk today actually me feel bad about leaving. The irony is that Elder Bednar and you two (there counting Kiwi/Russel/Pahoran) make me feel great about leaving! 

That was a cheap shot, SU.

[ttribe]

49 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

What does a defender do? Responds to attacks.

Firstly, instead of assuming that someone finds something "threatening" or has some emotional "need to attack that perception," why not actually engage what is being said?

I don't think anyone minds that some people relate better to the way Elder Uchtdorf speaks than they do to other apostles. If anyone has said that they do, I've missed it. Would you mind pointing it out to me?

What I object to is the attempt to cherry-pick snippets from what Elder Uchtdorf has said, and impute to those snippets an ideological bent that the speaker does not hold. Elder Uchtdorf is, at the very minimum, a believing Latter-day Saint. Which means that he believes that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth; there is no other. He fully upholds the Church's moral teachings. Anyone who imagines him a secret "ally" of some entirely worldly movement or other is not only deluding him/herself, but slandering a good man thereby.

And besides all that, it just isn't true.

Why do certain parties "find it so threatening" if one of their cherished illusions is challenged?

Are you responding to something you generally perceive to be an attack, or is there a specific attack you are responding to? Has someone actually suggested Elder Uchtdorf is secretly aligned with some movement?  I can't imagine anyone seriously suggesting such a thing.  

For the record, I don't really have a dog in this fight.   While I can see the point of some that Elder Uchtdorf has a more approachable delivery style for his messages, I don't see much of a substantive difference in the content.  As has been common for me over the past few years, my post was to provoke thought into the delivery of the defense.  It should be obvious by now that I have a real problem with defenses that are made in an aggressive and mean spirited fashion; which seems to be why you and I find each other in conflict so frequently.

[ttribe]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think most everyone recognizes that ttribe's remark was obliquely directed at me, but I'll state for the record that I never said that nor meant it nor implied it.

It was? That's news to me!

[kiwi57]

Just now, ttribe said:

Are you responding to something you generally perceive to be an attack, or is there a specific attack you are responding to? Has someone actually suggested Elder Uchtdorf is secretly aligned with some movement?  I can't imagine anyone seriously suggesting such a thing.

Perhaps not in so many words, but there is a perception in certain quarters that Elder Uchtdorf is more "progressive" than some of the other brethren. It was even speculated that that was why he was "demoted." (Which, of course, he wasn't.)

Just now, ttribe said:

For the record, I don't really have a dog in this fight.   While I can see the point of some that Elder Uchtdorf has a more approachable delivery style for his messages, I don't see much of a substantive difference in the content.

Thank you.

Just now, ttribe said:

As has been common for me over the past few years, my post was to provoke

Yes, I've noticed that.

Just now, ttribe said:

thought into the delivery of the defense.  It should be obvious by now that I have a real problem with defenses that are made in an aggressive and mean spirited fashion;

Well, I can only encourage you to work to overcome that problem. 

Just now, ttribe said:

which seems to be why you and I find each other in conflict so frequently.

You'll find I'm very forgiving.