The Destruction of God?

[Hestia]

Josh Khinder has been banned from the thread for his inability to play well with others.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 2/2/2018 at 10:50 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Opposition seems to be essential for existence. How would the absence of opposition destroy God? 

no, not here: "

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan^[b] also came among them. ⁷ The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” ⁸ And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”⁹ Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason?¹⁰ Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. ¹¹ But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” ¹² And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

no, not here: "

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan^[b] also came among them. ⁷ The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” ⁸ And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”⁹ Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason?¹⁰ Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. ¹¹ But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” ¹² And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

OK. Could you elaborate?

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/8/2018 at 6:27 PM, Josh Khinder said:

Because these so claimed leaders claimed to be anointed by God to lead

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."¹

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

Hi, Josh.  This unauthorized statement, which also appeared that June in the Improvement Era, is false doctrine.  Pres George Albert Smith himself was annoyed by it and stated (in part)

Quote

 the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: “I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please.” This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.

On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”  https://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/25/when-our-leaders-speak-the-thinking-has-been-done/ .

Anti-Mormons frequently repeat that false claim, even though they know full well that it is false doctrine.

Quote

"I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212-213.)

God always chooses imperfect leaders (there isn't any other kind).  At the last General Conference of the LDS Church, Pres Henry Eyring said:

Quote

A bishop is sometimes called to serve people who know him well. Ward members know something of his human weaknesses and his spiritual strengths, and they know that others in the ward could have been called—others who seem better educated, more seasoned, more pleasant, or even better looking.

Without their faith, the bishop, who was called of God, will find it harder to get the revelation he needs to help them. He will not succeed without the faith of the members to sustain him.

For a leader to succeed in the Lord’s work, the people’s trust that he is called of God must override their view of his infirmities and mortal weaknesses. You remember how King Benjamin explained his own leadership role:

“I have not commanded you to come up hither that ye should fear me, or that ye should think that I of myself am more than a mortal man.
“But I am like as yourselves, subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind; yet I have been chosen by this people, and consecrated by my father, and was suffered by the hand of the Lord that I should be a ruler and a king over this people; and have been kept and preserved by his matchless power, to serve you with all the might, mind and strength which the Lord hath granted unto me” (Mosiah 2:10–11).  https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/11/general-priesthood-session/the-lord-leads-his-church?lang=eng .

He then gave an example of his own failure as a bishop, a humbling experience which the anti-Mormons never deign to recognize in modern or ancient leaders chosen by God.  It is so much more convenient to claim the false doctrine of infallibility.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/9/2018 at 9:21 AM, Josh Khinder said:

Read Evidence Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell to figure that out 

I have several volumes by McDowell, including the one you cite, and I like him a lot.  However, the problem you ought to recognize is that his apologetic efforts are pretty much the same as LDS apologetics, making many of the same assumptions and reaching many of the same conclusions.  Indeed, the sort of attacks you make on Mormonism are just the sort of attacks on Protestant Christianity which McDowell defends against.  People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Josh.

[Atheist Mormon]

17 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

OK. Could you elaborate?

Inferring from the Book of Job as I quoted, I don't see an adversary here, rather a collaborator, advocate, or even a friend.....

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have several volumes by McDowell, including the one you cite, and I like him a lot.  However, the problem you ought to recognize is that his apologetic efforts are pretty much the same as LDS apologetics, making many of the same assumptions and reaching many of the same conclusions.  Indeed, the sort of attacks you make on Mormonism are just the sort of attacks on Protestant Christianity which McDowell defends against.  People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Josh.

In fact I suppose I need to thank Josh for that- I had never heard of McDowell since I am relatively new to the Evangelical-Mormon wars but now I see McDowell as a clear ally.

I am of course interested in how Pragmatism works in Christianity and I had no idea there was an EV out there who would actually get along with William James, Rorty, Alma, Moroni, Putnam  and the boys. 

And now here is McDowell in my universe.  Gotta check him out further, no question.  

[nuclearfuels]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:13 PM, Bernard Gui said:

I’m curious how God’s status is connected to and dependent on the quantity of his posterity if that is what you mean. Perhaps I misunderstand. Reminds me of Terry Pratchett’s great book Small Gods. The power of the gods of his imaginary Discworld is determined by the numbers of their followers. The poor Turtle god is at the rock bottom with only one acolyte. He needs more.

Could you elabotate?

Not quantity. Quality.  

As man is now, God once was. 

As God if now man may become. 

The apotheosis potential we all have, to me anyway, is based on the principle that "the glory be Thine forever," so as we CTR and keep the commandments, we end up demonstrating that God's faith in us was in fact knowledge, and our righteous deeds exalt Him further. Does He need that? No. Will He be God the Father if we all break the commandments? Yes.  

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Not quantity. Quality.  

As man is now, God once was. 

As God if now man may become. 

The apotheosis potential we all have, to me anyway, is based on the principle that "the glory be Thine forever," so as we CTR and keep the commandments, we end up demonstrating that God's faith in us was in fact knowledge, and our righteous deeds exalt Him further. Does He need that? No. Will He be God the Father if we all break the commandments? Yes.  

The scriptures tell us that the glory of God is intelligence, or truth and light. That's what the glory of God is. 

Therefore it is impossible for God to increase in glory ("status") unless we accept that he is also increasing in intelligence and truth, or knowledge.  Sorry Elder McConkie.

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:52 AM, mfbukowski said:

It is all reality, it is all metaphor since anything in language IS metaphor.   Few people realize that all communication is symbolic because when we say "chair" chairs to do not pop out of our mouths.  We turn things into grunts in the air and expect them to conform to the grunts!  If we call the grunts "things" and we have a grunt called "God" then God becomes only a grunt.   Sorry but that is the truth.  G-O-D is  a word, nothing more, nothing less and yet we try to fathom the reality with only grunts.

Yet I can go down to Home Depot and purchase some specific grunts, and with just those grunts, I take my grunt of a grunt, some other grunts, and with my bare grunts, form my grunt of a grunt into a grunt upon which we may sit to watch the Olympic grunts on the grunt while enjoying a grunt of grunt. Wanna come over for some grunt while we watch the grunts? I make a mean grunt....   

Edited February 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui