JarMan Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 The Bible has a generally understood cosmology. The Book of Abraham has a cosmology that nobody seems to agree on. But what does Book of Mormon cosmology look like? It's a little tough to tell since there is not a creation account like in the other two books. Because of a different thread discussing the meaning of Helaman 12:13-15 and whether or not this was describing heliocentrism, I started wondering whether a general cosmology could be pieced together. The general questions I'm interested in exploring are how the earth relates to the rest of the cosmos and how hell fits into the overall picture. Where do the heavenly bodies reside and what is their relation to earth? How is the earth viewed as a whole? What is the location and nature of hell? Where do God and the angels reside? Where do the devil and his angels reside and operate? Does life exist elsewhere in the cosmos? Where is the afterlife located? What understanding is there for natural phenomena such as extreme weather and earthquakes? Is Noah's flood considered universal or even contemplated, for that matter? There are many questions I could add to this list. I'm not asking about contemporary Mormon cosmology. Much has been written on that already. I'm purely interested in what the Book of Mormon has to say. Maybe it's silent on some of these things. That's okay. I'm just as interested in what has been left out compared to the bible, for instance. If you want, you can think of this as another Book of Mormon geography thread (haven't had one of those for awhile) just on a larger scale and with a metaphysical twist.
Anijen Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 Just now, The Nehor said: Countdown to Grotius in 3.....2..... Not ashamed to admit I had to google Grotius. 1
JarMan Posted January 27, 2018 Author Posted January 27, 2018 35 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Countdown to Grotius in 3.....2..... I’ve been studying Grotius’ masterpiece on the history of ancient cosmology so naturally I wanted to make some comparisons. 1
The Nehor Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 26 minutes ago, JarMan said: I’ve been studying Grotius’ masterpiece on the history of ancient cosmology so naturally I wanted to make some comparisons. Called it. What do I wIn?
JarMan Posted January 27, 2018 Author Posted January 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Called it. What do I wIn? You fell for it. No soup for you. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, JarMan said: ............................. what does Book of Mormon cosmology look like? It's a little tough to tell since there is not a creation account like in the other two books. ................................, I started wondering whether a general cosmology could be pieced together. The general questions I'm interested in exploring are how the earth relates to the rest of the cosmos and how hell fits into the overall picture. Where do the heavenly bodies reside and what is their relation to earth? How is the earth viewed as a whole? What is the location and nature of hell? Where do God and the angels reside? Where do the devil and his angels reside and operate? Does life exist elsewhere in the cosmos? Where is the afterlife located? What understanding is there for natural phenomena such as extreme weather and earthquakes? Is Noah's flood considered universal or even contemplated, for that matter? ........................ There are several inferences or hints at BofM cosmology: 1. The Atonement was prepared from the foundation of the world (Mosiah 4:6-7, Alma 13:5), but the high priesthood by which it is administered was eternal, i.e., extant "from eternity to eternity," "without beginning of days or end of years" (Alma 13:3-7) -- which suggests a meristic combination of static and dynamic eternity, describing the cosmic and timeless nature of priesthood power qua power to act on behalf of God. 2. Nature of God: The Book of Mormon speaks of God with flesh and blood anthropomorphisms (Ether 2:4-5,14, 3:4-19). Based on the anthropomorphic descriptions of God in the Bible, Yohanan Muffs insists that "the biblical God is anthropomorphic."[1] [1] Muffs, Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002):23; cf. Ronald Hendel, "Aniconism and Anthropomorphism in Ancient Israel," in K. van der Toorn, ed., The Image and the Book (Leuven: Peeters, 1997), 205-228; Benjamin Sommer, The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (Cambridge University Press, 2009); Esther J. Hamori, "When Gods Were Men": The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature (de Gruyter, 2008), reviewed in RBL, Feb 2012, online at http://www.bookreviews.org/bookdetail.asp?TitleId=8190 . 3. Nephi beholds the Holy Spirit ("the Spirit of the Lord") "in the form of a man" who could speak "as a man" (1 Nephi 11:11).[1] That same Holy Spirit is personified as Wisdom in Proverbs 8, Wisdom of Solomon 7 - 8, and Ecclesiasticus 24 (Ben Sirach).[2] Proverbs 8:22-31 depicts Wisdom as created at the beginning of God's work and as "beside him, like a master worker"; Wisdom's hymn in Sirach 24:1-34 reads like a paean to a goddess; Wisdom of Solomon 7:22-10:21 follows suit, as does Philo of Alexandria's On the Creation. Mosiah 8:20b personifies Wisdom (cf. Mosiah 2:17, Alma 37:35). [1] Cf. Kenneth Surin, Theology and the Problem of Evil (Eugene: Wipf & Stock, 2004). [2] P. Skehan in Catholic Biblical Quarterly 41:371n. 4. Lehi's Law of Opposition (II Nephi 2:11-29)[1] is a fundamental law of the physical universe. [1] Cf. E. Horton, "Koheleth's Concept of Opposites," Numen, 19 (1972):1-21; A. Gileadi, Isaiah Decoded (Hebraeus, 2002), presents a "bifid" structure of the entire book of Isaiah, with seven parallel themes arranged chiastically in each half of the book, through a series of opposites (ruin & rebirth, rebellion & compliance, etc.); cf. also Amos 5:14-15 in Andersen & Freedman, Amos, 506 (good & evil ||evil & good), cited by Bartelt in A. Beck, ed., Fortunate the Eyes That See, 167-168, "triple chiasm" of evil,good ||good,evil; darkness,light ||light,darkness; bitter,sweet ||sweet,bitter; I Nephi 8:10-35, 11:8-25, 15:22-36, II Nephi 2:15, 4:4, Alma 5:34,62, 12:23-26, 32:40, 42:2-6. Cf. Janice Allred, "Opposition in All Things: The Book of Mormon View," paper given Sept 21, 2012, at the annual meeting of the SMPT, USU, Logan, Utah. 5. The notion of deification (apotheosis) as the ultimate objective of the early Christian believer is entirely orthodox,[1] and was also a fundamental belief of the ancient Egyptians.[2] Both Bible and Book of Mormon appear to contain this doctrine (Alma 5:19, III Nephi 28:10, Moroni 7:48 ||1 John 3:2), and it was common to the Ante-Nicene Fathers,[3] and to pre-Christian Judaism.[4] [1] Stephen Finlan and Vladimir Kharlamov, eds., Theosis: Deification in Christian Theology, Princeton Theological Monograph Series (Pickwick Publ./Wipf & Stock, 2006). [2] Dietrich Wildung, Egyptian Saints: Deification in Pharaonic Egypt (NYU Press, 1977). [3] Daniel Graham, "Free Will in the Early Church," paper delivered Sept 21, 2012, at the annual meeting of SMPT at USU, Logan, Utah. [4] John J. Collins, “A Throne in the Heavens: Apotheosis in Pre-Christian Judaism,” in J. J. Collins & M. Fishbane, eds., Death, Ecstasy, and Other Worldly Journeys (N.Y.: SUNY Press, 1995), 43-58. 6. Proof of the existence of God based on the grandeur and wonderfully designed natural world in which we live (Alma 30:44; cf. Psalm 19:1, Romans 1:20), suggests that, as with Goldilocks, everything was "just right" and fine-tuned for human habitation.[1] Indeed, a physicist might argue that, with 200 billion galaxies and 200 billion stars in each galaxy, the odds are that something will be "just right" somewhere in the universe. In fact "Goldilocks planets" are now being found with great regularity, and it is estimated that there may be tens of billions of such worlds in our Milky Way Galaxy alone.[2] [1] Richard Deem, "Evidence for the Fine Tuning of the Universe," Evidence for God blog, online at http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html . [2] X. Delfosse1, et al., "The HARPS Search for Southern Extra-Solar planets. XXXV. Super-Earths around the M-Dwarf Neighbors Gl 433 and Gl 667C*," Astronomy & Astrophysics, Feb 14, 2012, online at http://www.eso.org/public/archives/releases/sciencepapers/eso1214/eso1214b.pdf ; cf. Bonfils, et al., "The HARPS Search for Southern Extra-Solar Planets.* XXXI. The M-Dwarf Sample," Astronomy & Astrophysics, Nov 24, 2011, online at http://www.eso.org/public/archives/releases/ sciencepapers/eso1214/eso1214a.pdf . 7. Book of Mormon lands, and even the whole Earth are divided into quadrants, on which see Diane E. Wirth & Steven L. Olsen, "Four Quarters," in J. Welch, ed., Reexploring the Book of Mormon (FARMS/Deseret, 1992), 145-149; Steven L. Olsen, "Cosmic Urban Symbolism in the Book of Mormon," BYU Studies, 23/1 (1983):79-92, online at https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/sites/default/files/Steven L. Olsen, Cosmic Urban Symbolism in the Book of Mormon, 1983_0.pdf . 8. Alma speaks of the Second Death (Alma 12:16, 13:30), a concept also found in ancient Egyptian religion -- as often depicted in Book of the Dead chapter 125 Judgment Scenes, where (after the First Death) a monster waits to eat the hearts of those who lived evil lives. See depicted and discussed in J. Welch, ed., Reexploring the Book of Mormon (FARMS/Deseret, 1992), 284-285. Edited January 27, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 1
JarMan Posted January 27, 2018 Author Posted January 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: 8. Alma speaks of the Second Death (Alma 12:16, 13:30), a concept also found in ancient Egyptian religion -- as often depicted in Book of the Dead chapter 125 Judgment Scenes, where (after the First Death) a monster waits to eat the hearts of those who lived evil lives. See depicted and discussed in J. Welch, ed., Reexploring the Book of Mormon (FARMS/Deseret, 1992), 284-285. I’ve always associated the second death with Revelations (2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8). In Revelations it is associated with fire and brimstone. We see the same type of imagery in Jacob 3:11, Alma 12:17, and Helaman 14:18. And while we see fire and brimstone coming down from heaven in the OT we never see a lake of fire and brimstone. What do you make of the similarities here between the Book of Mormon and the Book of Revelations?
Robert F. Smith Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 9 hours ago, JarMan said: I’ve always associated the second death with Revelations (2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8). In Revelations it is associated with fire and brimstone. We see the same type of imagery in Jacob 3:11, Alma 12:17, and Helaman 14:18. And while we see fire and brimstone coming down from heaven in the OT we never see a lake of fire and brimstone. What do you make of the similarities here between the Book of Mormon and the Book of Revelations? The Book of Revelation (singular) is a latecomer to the apocalyptic stage, and is preceded by much earlier fire & sulpher of Gehenna or Hades: Isa 33:14, 66:24, Ecclus (Sirach) 21:9-10, 1 Enoch 10:13, 48:8-10, 63:10, 103:7-8, 108:4-7, 1QH3, Matt 5:22,29-30, 18:9, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 16:19-31, Heb 10:27, 2 Pt 2:4, Jude 7, etc. Indeed, Luke 16:19-31 has its source in Jewish tradition taken directly from Egypt: Setne II (“Setne Khamwas and Si-Osire” compared in Jeremias, Parables of Jesus, 178,183; H. Gressman, Vom reichen Mann und armen Lazarus (Berlin, 1918), with Talmud; and K. Grobel, “. . . Whose Name Was Neves,” New Testament Studies, 10 (1963-1964):373-382. The ancient Egyptians believed in eternal punishment for the wicked, which is the whole point of the declaratory ritual and psychostasy in Book of the Dead 125. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 17 hours ago, JarMan said: The Bible has a generally understood cosmology. The Book of Abraham has a cosmology that nobody seems to agree on. But what does Book of Mormon cosmology look like? It's a little tough to tell since there is not a creation account like in the other two books. Because of a different thread discussing the meaning of Helaman 12:13-15 and whether or not this was describing heliocentrism, I started wondering whether a general cosmology could be pieced together. The general questions I'm interested in exploring are how the earth relates to the rest of the cosmos and how hell fits into the overall picture. Where do the heavenly bodies reside and what is their relation to earth? How is the earth viewed as a whole? What is the location and nature of hell? Where do God and the angels reside? Where do the devil and his angels reside and operate? Does life exist elsewhere in the cosmos? Where is the afterlife located? What understanding is there for natural phenomena such as extreme weather and earthquakes? Is Noah's flood considered universal or even contemplated, for that matter? There are many questions I could add to this list. I'm not asking about contemporary Mormon cosmology. Much has been written on that already. I'm purely interested in what the Book of Mormon has to say. Maybe it's silent on some of these things. That's okay. I'm just as interested in what has been left out compared to the bible, for instance. If you want, you can think of this as another Book of Mormon geography thread (haven't had one of those for awhile) just on a larger scale and with a metaphysical twist. You are confusing The Cosmology with astrology.......They didn't even know the earth was round.
CV75 Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 13 hours ago, JarMan said: I’ve always associated the second death with Revelations (2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8). In Revelations it is associated with fire and brimstone. We see the same type of imagery in Jacob 3:11, Alma 12:17, and Helaman 14:18. And while we see fire and brimstone coming down from heaven in the OT we never see a lake of fire and brimstone. What do you make of the similarities here between the Book of Mormon and the Book of Revelations? The Book or Mormon recognizes a destroying fire coming down from heaven (Helaman 13:13, 1 Nephi 22:17). It is interesting to me that it also teaches that a saving fire also comes down from heaven (Helaman 5:45, 3 Nephi 19:14), but such an idea is not found in the Bible. The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts mention lakes of fire, and exposure to “the language of the Egyptians” would have given the Nephite authors some familiarity with the term, and they could have easily appropriated it for their own use in their separate religion. 1
strappinglad Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 Not to belabor the point, but of all the planets found so far outside of the solar system , exactly ZERO are capable of sustaining life "as we know it " .Whether there are Silicone -based life forms I wouldn't care to speculate.
theplains Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: There are several inferences or hints at BofM cosmology: 1. The Atonement was prepared from the foundation of the world (Mosiah 4:6-7, Alma 13:5), but the high priesthood by which it is administered was eternal, i.e., extant "from eternity to eternity," "without beginning of days or end of years" (Alma 13:3-7) -- which suggests a meristic combination of static and dynamic eternity, describing the cosmic and timeless nature of priesthood power qua power to act on behalf of God. Do you believe the Atonement was the cause or effect of the Fall? Thanks, Jim
CV75 Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, theplains said: Do you believe the Atonement was the cause or effect of the Fall? Thanks, Jim Neither: It is the foreordained opposing principle to the Fall, no matter how the Fall is realized.
The Nehor Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 20 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Not to belabor the point, but of all the planets found so far outside of the solar system , exactly ZERO are capable of sustaining life "as we know it " .Whether there are Silicone -based life forms I wouldn't care to speculate. Kind of, last I heard we found 7 exoplanets that are in the right location and about the right size to have life on them. We are working on ways to try to figure out what their atmosphere is like. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, theplains said: Do you believe the Atonement was the cause or effect of the Fall?............. Good chicken & egg question, because you can't have one without the other. The Fall is inevitable, producing a need for reconciliation (atonement), but the reconcilation had been arranged for before the Fall. The matter is processual and a ritual anyhow, so that we are caught in an infinite regress, since there was no beginning and there shall be no end, i.e., there is an infinity of Falls and Atonements, and they are part and parcel of apotheosis.
clarkgoble Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 It seems to me that we have to be careful. There's a cosmology for the Old Testament primarily because there are passages that address such things. The Book of Mormon really doesn't. That said, I tend to see Nephi's vision as following a roughly mesopotamian view of the heavens that's reflected also in portions of 1 Enoch. I suspect Robert knows more about that than I do, but the parallels between 1 Enoch and Nephi's vision are really pronounced. In mesopotamian views the mists of darkness are the primordial chaos out of which the universe is organized. Often a wind is created to move this about. While we don't see the wind in 1 Ne 11-14 we do find many of the elements. The hesitation I'd have calling this a cosmology though is that it's not clear this is real for Nephi. That is this is all in a rather symbolic vision and heavenly ascent. Still there's a lot one can discuss. The other passages that could be taken to reflect on cosmology also are a bit difficult to say actually reflect a cosmology. I actually think this true of the Old Testament too often - for instance I think we have to be careful how we take Genesis 1 for instance. Further there's a case to be made that elements are sarcastic or ironic or are at least portraying elements of cosmology to oppose other views, often Canaanite or mesopotamian. For instance in the Adam and Eve story instead of Eden being a garden in the temple court or city such as Babylon's famous gardens, the garden is not within a city at all. Yet there's still an element of a kind of temple-cosmology at play. More or less what I'm getting at is that I think things are complex. The other cosmological elements might just reflect appropriated myths as well. And again it's hard to disentangle what is or isn't metaphor. Take say 2 Nephi 9 where we have to escape the monster of death and hell. Is this an allusion to the Canaanite myth where Baal enters Hell by being eaten by Mot? (With simultaneously the allusions to Christ entering hell at his death and opening up the gates so the dead don't necessarily stay in hell) This isn't really cosmological, but there is complexity there. Most of the imagery of hell is the typical underworld (2 Ne 24:9) of traditional Hebrew thought and that tends to be ubiquitous in the ancient near east. (For instance Hades, while not a devil-like divinity, lives in the underworld) 1 Ne 14:3 talks about the great pit which seems similar to the Greek myth of Tartarus. I mentioned earlier the similarity to Mot, but Tartarus is both the pit and the divine figure. 1
JarMan Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The Book of Revelation (singular) is a latecomer to the apocalyptic stage, and is preceded by much earlier fire & sulpher of Gehenna or Hades: Isa 33:14, 66:24, Ecclus (Sirach) 21:9-10, 1 Enoch 10:13, 48:8-10, 63:10, 103:7-8, 108:4-7, 1QH3, Matt 5:22,29-30, 18:9, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 16:19-31, Heb 10:27, 2 Pt 2:4, Jude 7, etc. Indeed, Luke 16:19-31 has its source in Jewish tradition taken directly from Egypt: Setne II (“Setne Khamwas and Si-Osire” compared in Jeremias, Parables of Jesus, 178,183; H. Gressman, Vom reichen Mann und armen Lazarus (Berlin, 1918), with Talmud; and K. Grobel, “. . . Whose Name Was Neves,” New Testament Studies, 10 (1963-1964):373-382. The ancient Egyptians believed in eternal punishment for the wicked, which is the whole point of the declaratory ritual and psychostasy in Book of the Dead 125. I understand that fire and brimstone is an ancient idea. But a lake of fire and brimstone seems to be unique to Revelation. So does the second death. So we have the second death represented by a lake of fire and brimstone in both Revelation and the Book of Mormon but nowhere else in the Bible.
JarMan Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: You are confusing The Cosmology with astrology.......They didn't even know the earth was round. Maybe they did. Didn’t the Lehites land on the west coast? And the Mulekites and Jaredites on the east coast? Wouldn’t this indicate the world was round? 1
clarkgoble Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, JarMan said: I understand that fire and brimstone is an ancient idea. But a lake of fire and brimstone seems to be unique to Revelation. So does the second death. So we have the second death represented by a lake of fire and brimstone in both Revelation and the Book of Mormon but nowhere else in the Bible. A lake of fire and brimstone is just use of a volcanic image. That's not at all uncommon. It appears quite early in Egyptian narratives and is a common part of the book of the dead. That's next door to Israel. Given the mixing and the reality of semiotic drift, one would expect Ghenna imagery to pick up meanings and imagery from similar symbols. Kothar the Canaanite God while not really a devil like figure has a workshop in an underground cave with volcanic imagery. (Kothar aids Baal against Yam) Fire and brimstone is part of 1 Enoch 14:9 too where people are tormented by fire in the presence of angels. It's also in the Book of Jubilees and a few others. So it definitely pre-dates Revelation. How far back isn't clear. There is lots of potential volcanic imagery in Deuteronomy and Exodus, although primarily associated with God although some, like John Day, argue that this is either fire from sacrifice or lightning. While the YHWH as a volcanic god isn't too popular these days, earlier in the 20th century it was a very popular view. However I tend to think we're dealing more with Egyptian influence likely from Ammit. She is the eater of the dead, consumes those whose lives don't balance out, and lives beside a lake of fire in the underworld. Why Nephi and company would have that imagery is of course a different matter. It's possible that in pre-exilic period there was more of that in the scriptures. Edited January 28, 2018 by clarkgoble 1
CV75 Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, JarMan said: I understand that fire and brimstone is an ancient idea. But a lake of fire and brimstone seems to be unique to Revelation. So does the second death. So we have the second death represented by a lake of fire and brimstone in both Revelation and the Book of Mormon but nowhere else in the Bible. Some of the content of the Coffin Texts from 2000 BC (e.g. the Lake of Fire) eventually ended up in the Book of the Dead, and this content was reproduced in various forms and formats including papyri between 1600 BC and 200 AD, which is within the time frame of Lehi's exposure to and adoption of the "language of the Egyptians." We know that "language" reflects non-verbal symbolic and cultural language as well as spoken and written words. The authors of the Biblical texts would not have been so influenced to use such language until the cultures crossed paths more generally and thoroughly between the time of Malachi and the time of Christ. https://books.google.com/books?id=La9K8fp-BcMC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=Book+of+the+Dead+lake+fire&source=bl&ots=SMdmHo87fe&sig=S6m4oEHXkcRQ2cr344bq_EJisMA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-nu_fy_nYAhXNwFMKHe8QAIAQ6AEIWTAK#v=onepage&q=Book of the Dead lake fire&f=false Edited January 28, 2018 by CV75 1
Rajah Manchou Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, JarMan said: Maybe they did. Didn’t the Lehites land on the west coast? And the Mulekites and Jaredites on the east coast? Wouldn’t this indicate the world was round? There's not enough information to say where the Mulekites and Jaredites landed. I think they only reason the east coast is most accepted is because the City of Mulek is on the east coast. There's no reason to assume Mulek (the city) was the Mulekite landing. I'd think it would be more reasonable to assume that the Mulekites went the same route as the Lehites. Its highly unlikely to me that going the opposite direction around the world through an entirely different set of currents would land Mulek within a few hundred miles of the Lehites and the Jaredites. The best way to (naturally) explain all three groups landing in roughly the same distant location is to put them in the same current at around the same season. Anything else would require divine intervention, and I don't think God would find it so important that the different parties go opposite directions that He would bother. Edited January 28, 2018 by Rajah Manchou
Robert F. Smith Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 3 hours ago, JarMan said: I understand that fire and brimstone is an ancient idea. Yes, it is, and it first shows up in the Bible at Gen 19:24 “sulfur and fire” (theion kai pyr) = Ps 11:6, Ezk 38:22, 3 Macc 2:5, Rev 14:10, etc. “fire and sulfur” (pyri kai theiōi). However, we find a “river of fire” in Dan 7:10, 1 Enoch 14: 19, 2 Enoch 10:2, and the volcanic "lake of fire" in Rev 19:20, 20:10,14-15, 21:8. Of course, fire has long been the dwelling place of the wicked: 2 Baruch 44:15, 48:39,43, 59:2, 64:7, 85:13, 4 Macc 9:8-9. 3 hours ago, JarMan said: But a lake of fire and brimstone seems to be unique to Revelation. So does the second death. So we have the second death represented by a lake of fire and brimstone in both Revelation and the Book of Mormon but nowhere else in the Bible. The "lake of fire" and "second death" are not unique to Revelation. Egyptians constantly speak of avoiding dying the second time -- Jan Assmann, Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt (Cornell Univ Press, 2005), 74-76, 426. The Book of Mormon, being engraved in Egyptian, probably uses the very words used in ancient Egypt for "second death." You can find the "lake of fire" in the ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts (spells 1054, 1156), in the ancient Egyptian Book of Two Ways, and in the Book of the Dead (spell 126 illus): Here we see the lake of fire with bodies of the damned in it:
JarMan Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes, it is, and it first shows up in the Bible at Gen 19:24 “sulfur and fire” (theion kai pyr) = Ps 11:6, Ezk 38:22, 3 Macc 2:5, Rev 14:10, etc. “fire and sulfur” (pyri kai theiōi). However, we find a “river of fire” in Dan 7:10, 1 Enoch 14: 19, 2 Enoch 10:2, and the volcanic "lake of fire" in Rev 19:20, 20:10,14-15, 21:8. Of course, fire has long been the dwelling place of the wicked: 2 Baruch 44:15, 48:39,43, 59:2, 64:7, 85:13, 4 Macc 9:8-9. The "lake of fire" and "second death" are not unique to Revelation. Egyptians constantly speak of avoiding dying the second time -- Jan Assmann, Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt (Cornell Univ Press, 2005), 74-76, 426. The Book of Mormon, being engraved in Egyptian, probably uses the very words used in ancient Egypt for "second death." You can find the "lake of fire" in the ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts (spells 1054, 1156), in the ancient Egyptian Book of Two Ways, and in the Book of the Dead (spell 126 illus): Here we see the lake of fire with bodies of the damned in it: It's hard to escape the conclusion there is a link between the Book of Mormon conception of hell and the Book of Revelation description. Here's a quick comparison of some of Jacob's teachings from 2 Nephi 9 and Jacob 3. (Revelation in red.) Quote 2 Nephi 9:12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel. 13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: 14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness. 15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. 20:13 (continued) and they were judged every man according to their works. 16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 17 O the greatness and the justice of our God! For he executeth all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his law must be fulfilled. 18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever. 19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. 2 Nephi 9:26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 2 Nephi 9:34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. 35 Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die. 36 Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell. 37 Yea, wo unto those that worship idols, for the devil of all devils delighteth in them. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Jacob 3:11 O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Of course it's not just Jacob, but other Book of Mormon prophets, as well, who seem to be alluding to Revelation.
JarMan Posted January 28, 2018 Author Posted January 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: There's not enough information to say where the Mulekites and Jaredites landed. I think they only reason the east coast is most accepted is because the City of Mulek is on the east coast. There's no reason to assume Mulek (the city) was the Mulekite landing. I'd think it would be more reasonable to assume that the Mulekites went the same route as the Lehites. Its highly unlikely to me that going the opposite direction around the world through an entirely different set of currents would land Mulek within a few hundred miles of the Lehites and the Jaredites. I've always assumed that the Mulekites high-tailed it to the nearest body of water (the Mediterranean) to get away as quickly as possible. They didn't have the head start Lehi did. Of course this is just speculation, but it would fit with an east coast landing. I assume they would have first made a trip to somewhere else in the Mediterranean or even the west coast of Europe and stopped there before making the Atlantic journey. 5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: The best way to (naturally) explain all three groups landing in roughly the same distant location is to put them in the same current at around the same season. Anything else would require divine intervention, and I don't think God would find it so important that the different parties go opposite directions that He would bother. Ether 6 seems to make a point that the winds and waves were quite large for the Jaredites, which was what necessitated the peculiar design of their barges. The inference seems to be divine intervention so I could see this indicating either a westward or an eastward journey. The main thing that makes me believe the Nephites believed in a round earth is the references to the motion of the earth in Helaman 12 and Alma 30:44. I just don't know how a flat earth could be a moving earth.
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