Jacob 5 and Asherah

[firepatch36]

Val Larsen has suggested that part of the tree in Jacob 5 could be our Mother in Heaven (in Square Two and in a footnote 26 in his Interpreter article). I’ve read and thought about this and am not sure what to think. Here’s an idea I had and I would appreciate other thoughts on this.

Jacob 5 refers to a mother tree 4 times, but all towards the end (54, 56, 60). There are various trees in the vineyard that had to originate somewhere. The mother tree could have been the original source of all the trees including the tame olive tree (verse 3). The mother tree then is not present in the vineyard in the beginning of the parable as those trees are the different people of the earth, not of heaven. After all the trees became corrupted, or the great apostasy, it was then necessary to restart. In order to do so the mother tree had to return. The restoration began in a grove, or another way to refer to Asherah (the mother tree).

I’m not sure if this reading of mine fully works. But I think that exploring the Asherah-Jacob 5 link could be profitable if someone explored it that knows more than myself.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, firepatch36 said:

Val Larsen has suggested that part of the tree in Jacob 5 could be our Mother in Heaven (in Square Two and in a footnote 26 in his Interpreter article). I’ve read and thought about this and am not sure what to think. Here’s an idea I had and I would appreciate other thoughts on this.

Jacob 5 refers to a mother tree 4 times, but all towards the end (54, 56, 60). There are various trees in the vineyard that had to originate somewhere. The mother tree could have been the original source of all the trees including the tame olive tree (verse 3). The mother tree then is not present in the vineyard in the beginning of the parable as those trees are the different people of the earth, not of heaven. After all the trees became corrupted, or the great apostasy, it was then necessary to restart. In order to do so the mother tree had to return. The restoration began in a grove, or another way to refer to Asherah (the mother tree).

I’m not sure if this reading of mine fully works. But I think that exploring the Asherah-Jacob 5 link could be profitable if someone explored it that knows more than myself.

It seems to me that the "mother tree" is simply the 'natural" "tame olive tree" which represents Israel throughout.  However, we might have a mixed metaphor there. After all, holy trees were always important to Hebrews, prime exemplars being Abraham and Jacob:

When Abraham comes to the mistranslated "plains of Moreh" (Abraham 2:18-19, Genesis 12:6), he actually comes to the ʼēlôn môre “Oracular-Terebinth”  (cf. Judges 9:37 ʼēlôn mĕˁônĕnîm “Soothsayers-Terebinth”),* where he proceeds to build an altar, offer a sacrifice, and have a vision of the Lord -- before going on to Bethel ("House of God, Temple"), where he repeats the same actions.  Jacob-Israel repeats similar actions beginning at Gen 35:4.  As pointed out by Dan Peterson, the Asherah is represented by several different types of tree.

* E. Speiser, Genesis, Anchor Bible, 87.

[Bob Crockett]

Asherah is so thoroughly condemned in the Old Testament that I doubt it.   As much as I love what Dr. Peterson has to say, I think he's wrong on this.  Relying upon William Dever won't get one very far.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[clarkgoble]

16 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Asherah is so thoroughly condemned in the Old Testament that I doubt it.   As much as I love what Dr. Peterson has to say, I think he's wrong on this.  Relying upon William Dever won't get one very far.

The argument is that most of the condemnation arises with Josiah's reforms and gets solidified with the Deuteronomist and Priestly traditions in the exile. The reason to be sympathetic to this is that there are clear indications worship in high places was accepted prior to that and that Lehi is part of that tradition. (He makes offerings independent of worship in Jerusalem for instance) I agree it's still quite speculative and I'm not entirely convinced myself. However the reason to be more sympathetic is that we know there is a mother in heaven. It's quite easy to see her being effaced due to overzealous attempts to distance Israel from neighbor idolatry. Especially when idolatry had been such a problem in the past but doesn't appear to be quite the same problem after the Babylonian exile.

[Bob Crockett]

Ok if you follow William Dever and Margaret Barker.  Not ok if you follow church manuals and tbe teachings of the Brethren.  

[stemelbow]

What would grafting branches into the mother tree mean if it is supposed to represent Mother in Heaven?  

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Ok if you follow William Dever and Margaret Barker.  Not ok if you follow church manuals and tbe teachings of the Brethren.  

Take Elder Ballard's advice and look to experts for answers, not the brethren.  

[Guest]

On December 10, 2017 at 8:21 PM, firepatch36 said:

Val Larsen has suggested that part of the tree in Jacob 5 could be our Mother in Heaven (in Square Two and in a footnote 26 in his Interpreter article). I’ve read and thought about this and am not sure what to think. Here’s an idea I had and I would appreciate other thoughts on this.

Jacob 5 refers to a mother tree 4 times, but all towards the end (54, 56, 60). There are various trees in the vineyard that had to originate somewhere. The mother tree could have been the original source of all the trees including the tame olive tree (verse 3). The mother tree then is not present in the vineyard in the beginning of the parable as those trees are the different people of the earth, not of heaven. After all the trees became corrupted, or the great apostasy, it was then necessary to restart. In order to do so the mother tree had to return. The restoration began in a grove, or another way to refer to Asherah (the mother tree).

I’m not sure if this reading of mine fully works. But I think that exploring the Asherah-Jacob 5 link could be profitable if someone explored it that knows more than myself.

Sorry, let me rephrase (if some read my other post or draft). Despite the many references to "Heavenly Mother" listed by name in this thread, and only by others in books, who do so, not without the endorsement of the Church, (Which is how all but two are written thus) unless it is "Jesus The Christ" or the book "Articles of Faith", both commissioned by the Church. However never in scripture is she mentioned,, but certainly In song (O My Father, but only as Mother).The name given is "Heavenly Mother or Heavenly Parents", in lessons, there are no names given to "her". The term given in official doctrine, (again, I believe). she is never named, but she is seldom spoken of alone, but with, "Heavenly Father" (as they are one, as all married couples are commanded to be).Also, "The Father"is seldom by name or title (as his name is both) out of respect, (again) both by name and title. "Elohiem", (using the Jewish spelling"). It is important to note that Jews take great care in using this name EVER!, As do we, usually only in our Temples and sometimes in lessons, and at times only in official doctrine, out of respect. However our Savior, (to whom we look to for salvation) Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost" are listed 1,000's of times in which the "Topical Guide", there are 18 pages, devoted to him alone, and many devoted to the Holy Ghist. 

My brothers and sisters, I apologize for any error or misspelling. It took me hours to get this paragraph as correctly as I could. I am getting to a point that I often leave my room to do things, or go outside and cannot remember why. I often forget why, or what I did so I meant to do. I could use your prayers, I watchedmy mother slowly fade away. I am afraid I could not bare to fade away. It may be something temporary, or medication. If I get to the point that my posts or threads are worst than usual, I will have to say goodbye. You have all helped to inspire me and helped to grow in the Gospel. For this I thank you all. So please take the the above paragraph with a "grain of salt", whatever the saying means. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Sorry, let me rephrase (if some read my other post or draft). Despite the many references to "Heavenly Mother" listed by name in this thread, and only by others in books, who do so, not without the endorsement of the Church, (Which is how all but two are written thus) unless it is "Jesus The Christ" or the book "Articles of Faith", both commissioned by the Church. However never in scripture is she mentioned,, but certainly In song (O My Father, but only as Mother).The name given is "Heavenly Mother or Heavenly Parents", in lessons, there are no names given to "her". The term given in official doctrine, (again, I believe). she is never named, but she is seldom spoken of alone, but with, "Heavenly Father" (as they are one, as all married couples are commanded to be).Also, "The Father"is seldom by name or title (as his name is both) out of respect, (again) both by name and title. "Elohiem", (using the Jewish spelling"). It is important to note that Jews take great care in using this name EVER!, As do we, usually only in our Temples and sometimes in lessons, and at times only in official doctrine, out of respect. However our Savior, (to whom we look to for salvation) Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost" are listed 1,000's of times in which the "Topical Guide", there are 18 pages, devoted to him alone, and many devoted to the Holy Ghist. 

My brothers and sisters, I apologize for any error or misspelling. It took me hours to get this paragraph as correctly as I could. I am getting to a point that I often leave my room to do things, or go outside and cannot remember why. I often forget why, or what I did so I meant to do. I could use your prayers, I watchedmy mother slowly fade away. I am afraid I could not bare to fade away. It may be something temporary, or medication. If I get to the point that my posts or threads are worst than usual, I will have to say goodbye. You have all helped to inspire me and helped to grow in the Gospel. For this I thank you all. So please take the the above paragraph with a "grain of salt", whatever the saying means. 

Pa Pa, I so relate to the memory problems! Lately I've been taking cannibus oil, and I feel like it's helped me so much. I was turned down recently for long term health insurance that I applied for. I guess I was pretty dumb for getting tested for Alzhiemer's. I only did it because I was worried that if I bought cannibus I'd get busted and I wanted a back up to show it was because I was worried about getting Alz. Well turns out the insurance company pulled my medical records and they found out I scored low on my test and that it's in my history. Of course I hadn't tried the cannibus yet. If it weren't so expensive I'd go back in and retest to see if it's better. 

Also, have you've been checked for Lyme's disease? I know Kris Kristofferson went through a bout where they thought he had dementia, but it turns out it was Lyme's disease!

Best of luck, I think you did very well on this post, wow! How old was your mother when she showed signs of Alz or dementia? Mine was around 62, when she started doing things that made me worry.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Papa, if you are taking any pain meds that can really mess up your memory.  That and sleep deprivation are doing a number on me.  I am praying that in ten or fifteen years they will have a cure so I can stop taking the stuff and get my brain working again, but that will be a miracle since it appears Pharma prefers to just recycle the old drugs, tweaking them just enough for a new patent. 

Until then there is the edit function.

[strappinglad]

Papa, you should know that it is an established fact that passing through a doorway hits the erase button on memory. That's why whenever I get into my car , I can't recall which direction I should turn to go where I wanted to go, which I have forgotten anyway.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Also, have you've been checked for Lyme's disease? I know Kris Kristofferson went through a bout where they thought he had dementia, but it turns out it was Lyme's disease!

Best of luck, I think you did very well on this post, wow! How old was your mother when she showed signs of Alz or dementia? Mine was around 62, when she started doing things that made me worry.

 No, I have not been checked for this, and my Mother started going down  hill in her early 70's. 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Papa, if you are taking any pain meds that can really mess up your memory.  That and sleep deprivation are doing a number on me.  I am praying that in ten or fifteen years they will have a cure so I can stop taking the stuff and get my brain working again, but that will be a miracle since it appears Pharma prefers to just recycle the old drugs, tweaking them just enough for a new patent. 

Until then there is the edit function.

Someone help, my keys covering my comments, and I cannot see what I am typing. Is this happening to others? It is hard enough already. But yes I am taking pain Ned's, it is cheaper than the surgery I need, and cannot afford. Hey while typing this, I found I can see below the keyboard what I am typing. But it is taking many rewrites, and far too long. I fear I my be embarrassing myself. So again forgive any rambling and misspelling.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Papa, you should know that it is an established fact that passing through a doorway hits the erase button on memory. That's why whenever I get into my car , I can't recall which direction I should turn to go where I wanted to go, which I have forgotten anyway.

it may be, but it has never happened to me until recently. One of my greatest strengths has been my ability to remember vast amounts of information, which has allowed me to make insane amounts of money teaching others, especially after my injury,. If I lose that, what is left of me? Recently a number of friends came over to rebuild my well house, and I all I could do is watch. I used to be who people would call for help, now I can do nothing to help. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Someone help, my keys covering my comments, and I cannot see what I am typing. Is this happening to others? It is hard enough already. But yes I am taking pain Ned's, it is cheaper than the surgery I need, and cannot afford. Hey while typing this, I found I can see below the keyboard what I am typing. But it is taking many rewrites, and far too long. I fear I my be embarrassing myself. So again forgive any rambling and misspelling.

My night meds can screw with my eyesight as well...and it takes forever to think about what I am saying.

[Bob Crockett]

5 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

it may be, but it has never happened to me until recently. One of my greatest strengths has been my ability to remember vast amounts of information, which has allowed me to make insane amounts of money teaching others, especially after my injury,. If I lose that, what is left of me? Recently a number of friends came over to rebuild my well house, and I all I could do is watch. I used to be who people would call for help, now I can do nothing to help. 

Consider taking up biking or running.  A friend of mind, over 70, battles with this.  Both parents expired from dementia while in their 60s. My friend took up running in his 60s to stave it off and he still works as a financial advisor and fund manager.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Consider taking up biking or running.  A friend of mind, over 70, battles with this.  Both parents expired from dementia while in their 60s. My friend took up running in his 60s to stave it off and he still works as a financial advisor and fund manager.

Maybe biking, but due to diabetes, I can barely walk, or feel my feet. Other than the burning and shoting pain. It has a name, but I could not spell it, despite 100 attenps. It starts with an "N"., however it is spelled. Neuropathy, maybe. 

[Calm]

It is neuropathy.  I have it too, though not due to diabetes and not as bad as you though I haven't been walking for over a month for exercise because of not being able to bear the thought of putting shoes on.  Even socks that are tight can be too much.  I like Dr. School's diabetes socks in slightly too large size though they are too bulky to wear with shoes.  My shoes are actually not bad as they are extra deep and high around the ankle so my toes don't get push against anything.  Sheets and blankets are too heavy these days, switching to a twin bed so I can make a box for the blankets to sit on so my feet will be warm but not pressed against anything.  I find taking a multimineral supplement helps me.  My podiatrist recommended a B Complex but causes anxietyfor me.

I want to try swimming, but no longer live by a warm pool.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Calm

[Brant Gardner]

On 12/10/2017 at 6:21 PM, firepatch36 said:

Val Larsen has suggested that part of the tree in Jacob 5 could be our Mother in Heaven (in Square Two and in a footnote 26 in his Interpreter article). I’ve read and thought about this and am not sure what to think. Here’s an idea I had and I would appreciate other thoughts on this.

Jacob 5 refers to a mother tree 4 times, but all towards the end (54, 56, 60). There are various trees in the vineyard that had to originate somewhere. The mother tree could have been the original source of all the trees including the tame olive tree (verse 3). The mother tree then is not present in the vineyard in the beginning of the parable as those trees are the different people of the earth, not of heaven. After all the trees became corrupted, or the great apostasy, it was then necessary to restart. In order to do so the mother tree had to return. The restoration began in a grove, or another way to refer to Asherah (the mother tree).

I’m not sure if this reading of mine fully works. But I think that exploring the Asherah-Jacob 5 link could be profitable if someone explored it that knows more than myself.

When chiasms were elucidated in the Book of Mormon, it seemed such a great idea that suddenly chiasmus appeared everywhere. What is a legitimate literary structure and can be analyzed correctly was taken way too far. Just because Asherah is associated with a tree, and can explain the set of assumptions of understanding behind Nephi's elaboration of Lehi's dream, doesn't mean that because you have a tree it is related to Asherah. It also doesn't mean that seen the words "mother tree" mean an invocation of the goddess rather than a source.

The tree of life had some very specific mythological settings and connections. Those are present in Lehi's dream, although they occur in a context sufficiently reappropriated that Nephi had to ask for the meaning of what would have been clear had the context not be reappropriated. Nevertheless, the contexts of the fruit and the associated water, as well as implications of a reward, were sufficient to provide the context that associated the dream with the tree of life--and that was sufficient to invoke the connection between the tree of life and Asherah. As a different issue, the acceptability of Asherah as a goddess to the Bible writers isn't the issue--it is the availability of the understanding that could inform the connection. Christianity may not believe in Santa Claus as an actual saint--but we recognize the set of symbols that would invoke the image and the better symbolic meanings.

Anyway, finally to Jacob 5. There are none of the tree of life markers here that would suggest any connection to that mythico-religious complex. In Jacob, the tree is a tree, behaving as a tree would. Sometimes a tree is just a tree, and in Jacob--it is just a tree (and actually a better analogy for being common).

The problem with Jacob 5 that I can't really answer is how well the botanical reality that supported the analogy translated to a New World where there were no olive trees. We don't have to worry about the problem of the symbolism of Lehi's tree because that occurred in, and is reported in, the context of the Old World. In the New World, none of the clues would have been understood, nor would the connection to the complex of ideas surrounding Asherah.

[clarkgoble]

On 12/12/2017 at 4:59 AM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

However never in scripture is she mentioned,, but certainly In song (O My Father, but only as Mother).The name given is "Heavenly Mother or Heavenly Parents", in lessons, there are no names given to "her".

I think it's a bit trickier when dealing with scripture given reasonably clear feminine language talking about God in some places. But I'd agree it's not addressed in a clear unambiguous fashion. The places it are address either can be interpreted metaphorically (say the mother of men in Moses 7:48) or else are more naturally taken as metaphor (say Proverbs 8 where divine wisdom is personified). At best we can argue that, given our knowledge from what's taught in the temple or in D&C 132, that these passages shouldn't be dismissed as allegories.

2 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Anyway, finally to Jacob 5. There are none of the tree of life markers here that would suggest any connection to that mythico-religious complex. In Jacob, the tree is a tree, behaving as a tree would. Sometimes a tree is just a tree, and in Jacob--it is just a tree (and actually a better analogy for being common).

The problem with Jacob 5 that I can't really answer is how well the botanical reality that supported the analogy translated to a New World where there were no olive trees. We don't have to worry about the problem of the symbolism of Lehi's tree because that occurred in, and is reported in, the context of the Old World. In the New World, none of the clues would have been understood, nor would the connection to the complex of ideas surrounding Asherah.

I'm not sure that's a problem since Jacob is just quoting scripture. It's still 2cd and maybe 3rd generation Lehites although it's plausible by then they'd merged in with existing groups. Asking how well people understood grafting is valid of course. But that's more of an issue of how successful Jacob would be rhetorically to the people. By all accounts from the book, Jacob isn't terribly successful at preaching.

For grafting though, I'd imagine that if they are in mesoAmerica that cacao trees would work well as grafting is used extensively with them. At least in contemporary horticulture. While I couldn't find explicit dealing with pre-columbian cacao grafting, it likely was going on. Other fruit trees like avocados may have been grafted as well. 

Cacao as a way of dealing with semantic shifts while maintaining important structural elements of these allegories makes a ton of sense. Not only is extensive grafted using in cacao production, but of course cacao fulfilled a role somewhat analogous to the tree of life in mesoAmerica. I'm not saying that would make Jacob 5 a tree of life text. Like you I think it's a classic vineyard allegory.

[firepatch36]

On 12/14/2017 at 9:27 AM, Brant Gardner said:

Anyway, finally to Jacob 5. There are none of the tree of life markers here that would suggest any connection to that mythico-religious complex. In Jacob, the tree is a tree, behaving as a tree would. Sometimes a tree is just a tree, and in Jacob--it is just a tree (and actually a better analogy for being common).

 

I wondered if this were the case and wanted to see what others had to say. Thanks for the response, I enjoyed your book.

[Bob Crockett]

On 12/14/2017 at 6:27 AM, Brant Gardner said:

When chiasms were elucidated in the Book of Mormon, it seemed such a great idea that suddenly chiasmus appeared everywhere. What is a legitimate literary structure and can be analyzed correctly was taken way too far. Just because Asherah is associated with a tree, and can explain the set of assumptions of understanding behind Nephi's elaboration of Lehi's dream, doesn't mean that because you have a tree it is related to Asherah. It also doesn't mean that seen the words "mother tree" mean an invocation of the goddess rather than a source.

The tree of life had some very specific mythological settings and connections. Those are present in Lehi's dream, although they occur in a context sufficiently reappropriated that Nephi had to ask for the meaning of what would have been clear had the context not be reappropriated. Nevertheless, the contexts of the fruit and the associated water, as well as implications of a reward, were sufficient to provide the context that associated the dream with the tree of life--and that was sufficient to invoke the connection between the tree of life and Asherah. As a different issue, the acceptability of Asherah as a goddess to the Bible writers isn't the issue--it is the availability of the understanding that could inform the connection. Christianity may not believe in Santa Claus as an actual saint--but we recognize the set of symbols that would invoke the image and the better symbolic meanings.

Anyway, finally to Jacob 5. There are none of the tree of life markers here that would suggest any connection to that mythico-religious complex. In Jacob, the tree is a tree, behaving as a tree would. Sometimes a tree is just a tree, and in Jacob--it is just a tree (and actually a better analogy for being common).

The problem with Jacob 5 that I can't really answer is how well the botanical reality that supported the analogy translated to a New World where there were no olive trees. We don't have to worry about the problem of the symbolism of Lehi's tree because that occurred in, and is reported in, the context of the Old World. In the New World, none of the clues would have been understood, nor would the connection to the complex of ideas surrounding Asherah.

Right.   I did love your two volumes trying to bring more pragmatism to a reading of the Book of Mormon. Everybody should read that.