Guest Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 3 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: Sorry that's not true, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, if you are saying there are no experiences of people having demons cast out by priesthood holders in the church. There have been many demons cast out by priesthood holders in the name ofJesus Christ. In fact it's been argued the first miracle of the church was an exorcism performed by Joseph Smith on Newell Knight. In fact some D&C sections (such as section 52) were given in response to situations involving deceiving spirits. A good reference is Gifts of the Spirit by Matthew Brown. I work in the mental health field and am somewhat sympathetic to your opinions, and agree that mental illness can certainly look like possession in certain situations. However evil spirits exist and they can take over bodies of individuals. This is a very scriptural principle. I was speaking of the Church in this, or, our day.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 3:57 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I do not doubt what Jesus Christ did, but in our day some still believe that persons with mental disorders are possessed. We as a Church believe in modern day remedies to many such disabilities. Demon possession is unheard of in the history of the Church, meaning the LDS Church. Not so, Bill. Here are some comments from a previous thread on Exorcism at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/53091-exorcism-in-the-lds-church/ The prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. when relating events of his First Vision as published in the 'Times and Seasons' newspaper, talks of an evil possession (that even bound his tongue)while first attempting to pray vocally in the grove. (LDS Joseph Smith History 1:15-16) I recall two apostles in the 1830-1844 church while on mission in England, were involved in an exorcism of a man with demonic possession. This account might be in the 'Docudrama of the Restoration'. I'll see if I can find it again. -------------------- Elder L. Edward Brown formerly of the 70 talks about this at a BYUI devotional from some years ago http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2003_01_14_Brown.htm -------------------- 1: I was a missionary, and we were teaching this couple, showing them the old First Vision filmstrip. This usually made a strong positive impression on people; most said that they "felt the spirit' during it, and I usually did. So afterwards we asked the couple what they felt. The wife was almost catatonic; conscious but non-responsive. My companion and I both felt something cold & terrifying, and he whispered to me "it's Satan". I'm not sure it was the big guy himself, but I knew what he meant. We anointed her with consecrated oil and gave her a blessing, after which she was suddenly fine. My companion and I felt much better too, maybe as much out of relief as anything else. She told us of the experience from her perspective. She said that right at the moment when the Father and Son appear to Joseph Smith - which is supposed to be the cue for the Holy Spirit to come in - she said "it entered me". She said something entered her mind and/or body and began laughing at her. She could see his face, and he was very handsome. His laughter was so loud that it drowned out the rest of the film, as well as all the questions we asked her afterward as we were trying to figure out what was going on. She said she could tell we were speaking to her, but she couldn't really hear us. She went on to say that when we put the "water" on her head, "it was very afraid". She said that right in the middle of the prayer (blessing) it suddenly left. To the best of my knowledge neither she nor her husband were ever baptized. 2: A young couple that I was well acquainted with was engaged, and the girl began exhibiting strange behavior. She would become uncharactaristically negative, then become withdrawn and semi-catatonic, and not remember much about it afterwards. The young man tried to give her a blessing, and she physically fought him off. So I tried to put my hands on her head, and she began fighting me off. Her grip was amazingly strong. I was curious just how strong she was, so I let her grab me by the upper torso with both hands, under my armpits. She picked me up and threw me backwards about eight feet. I wasn't a big guy and she wasn't a big girl, but outside of a major adrenaline rush that was abnormal. Didn't really hurt much (I had a background in judo and could fall safely), but I was really surprised by her strength. On the other hand, her coordination was poor, and it was easy to twist and break her grip if I wanted to. This pushy-shovey-standup-wrestling match ensued, with one or another of the men present doing a "casting out" command from time to time. They only effect this had was to apparently enrage the girl, or whatever was controlling her. This continued for maybe five or ten minutes, and then she appeared to go to sleep. We were unable to awaken her. Well now was our opportunity to give her a blessing and we did so, but nothing happened. After sleeping for a couple of hours she awoke and seemed to be fine. I think there were several subsequent episodes, and never anything that might be called a successful casting out. I do not know what her perception of these events was. The couple intepreted it as Satan trying to keep them from getting married, so they proceeded to get married and never had any recurrence during their marrige, which lasted about ten years. They remain friends. 3. I was called by a concerned young wife (a different woman) about her husband, who seemed to be badly depressed.. okay, suicidal. This was uncharacteristic of him. So I arranged to meet him at his place of business after hours. I tried to assess the situation by asking a bunch of questions, but got only short answers like "i don't know". There seemed to be a void-like feeling, I coiuldn't feel anything one way or another, and usually I could at least get a reading, so to speak. So this was unusual. I told him that I suspected it might be an evil spirit and that I would like to give him a blessing. He said "I don't care", which I took to be permission (and it was). I went into the next room to pray first, and asked for ministering angels to assist me, as attributed to the Aaronic priesthood. I believed in such things (still do), and figured I needed all the help I could get. I went back into the room where he was, and asked him to come into the big room where I had gone to pray. I had a chair in the middle of the room with plenty of space around it for any angels that decided to show up. I told him that I had asked for angels to assist. I asked him if he thought I should anoint him with oil first.. He said "I don't know. I just don't know." Still figuring I could use all the help I could get, I anointed him and then sealed the anointing and gave him a blessing and used the word "we" when I commanded the evil spirit to depart. Apparently it did so. After the blessing he was quite animated. He told me that he'd had this fog in his mind that made it very difficult for him to folllow what I was saying. He had wanted to give specific answers to my questions, but for some reason he was unable to force himself to do so against the fog. When I asked him about using the oil, the voice in his head said, "Great, you're letting me choose my own bullet." And then he said to himself , "Where did THAT come from??" That was the first time he realized there was something inside of him substituting its inner voice and its thoughts for his own. He felt it leave early in the blessing as I recall, before I got to the command. To the best of my knowledge, he had no recurrence. He and his wife split up a year or two later, which I was glad of, because she was very demeaning towards him. He is remarried and happy, and I don't know where she is. ------------------------ What do you think of the account of Newel Knight not only being strangely contorted but then actually being caught up off the floor and tossed about the room? Joseph rebuked the devil and Newel saw the devil leave. The story is discussed herehttps://books.google.com/books?id=_izMO9Xdq2UC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=joseph+smith+casting+out+devil&source=bl&ots=TjovWsrhwg&sig=X_VfuACiIezwqQsUAFVfAUH3QWA&hl=en&ei=3yxUTaugBIG8sQOK_LX7CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false (Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling, p. 115) and herehttps://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/05/joseph-smith-the-mighty-prophet-of-the-restoration?lang=eng ------------------------- James Faust: "It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned" http://lds.org/ensign/2007/01/the-forces-that-will-save-us?lang=eng The devil is real, evil spirits can and do possess mortals. The scriptures make this clear. What about Jesus casting out a legion of devils in Mark 5? 2
Guest Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not so, Bill. Here are some comments from a previous thread on Exorcism at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/53091-exorcism-in-the-lds-church/ The prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. when relating events of his First Vision as published in the 'Times and Seasons' newspaper, talks of an evil possession (that even bound his tongue)while first attempting to pray vocally in the grove. (LDS Joseph Smith History 1:15-16) I recall two apostles in the 1830-1844 church while on mission in England, were involved in an exorcism of a man with demonic possession. This account might be in the 'Docudrama of the Restoration'. I'll see if I can find it again. -------------------- Elder L. Edward Brown formerly of the 70 talks about this at a BYUI devotional from some years ago http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2003_01_14_Brown.htm -------------------- 1: I was a missionary, and we were teaching this couple, showing them the old First Vision filmstrip. This usually made a strong positive impression on people; most said that they "felt the spirit' during it, and I usually did. So afterwards we asked the couple what they felt. The wife was almost catatonic; conscious but non-responsive. My companion and I both felt something cold & terrifying, and he whispered to me "it's Satan". I'm not sure it was the big guy himself, but I knew what he meant. We anointed her with consecrated oil and gave her a blessing, after which she was suddenly fine. My companion and I felt much better too, maybe as much out of relief as anything else. She told us of the experience from her perspective. She said that right at the moment when the Father and Son appear to Joseph Smith - which is supposed to be the cue for the Holy Spirit to come in - she said "it entered me". She said something entered her mind and/or body and began laughing at her. She could see his face, and he was very handsome. His laughter was so loud that it drowned out the rest of the film, as well as all the questions we asked her afterward as we were trying to figure out what was going on. She said she could tell we were speaking to her, but she couldn't really hear us. She went on to say that when we put the "water" on her head, "it was very afraid". She said that right in the middle of the prayer (blessing) it suddenly left. To the best of my knowledge neither she nor her husband were ever baptized. 2: A young couple that I was well acquainted with was engaged, and the girl began exhibiting strange behavior. She would become uncharactaristically negative, then become withdrawn and semi-catatonic, and not remember much about it afterwards. The young man tried to give her a blessing, and she physically fought him off. So I tried to put my hands on her head, and she began fighting me off. Her grip was amazingly strong. I was curious just how strong she was, so I let her grab me by the upper torso with both hands, under my armpits. She picked me up and threw me backwards about eight feet. I wasn't a big guy and she wasn't a big girl, but outside of a major adrenaline rush that was abnormal. Didn't really hurt much (I had a background in judo and could fall safely), but I was really surprised by her strength. On the other hand, her coordination was poor, and it was easy to twist and break her grip if I wanted to. This pushy-shovey-standup-wrestling match ensued, with one or another of the men present doing a "casting out" command from time to time. They only effect this had was to apparently enrage the girl, or whatever was controlling her. This continued for maybe five or ten minutes, and then she appeared to go to sleep. We were unable to awaken her. Well now was our opportunity to give her a blessing and we did so, but nothing happened. After sleeping for a couple of hours she awoke and seemed to be fine. I think there were several subsequent episodes, and never anything that might be called a successful casting out. I do not know what her perception of these events was. The couple intepreted it as Satan trying to keep them from getting married, so they proceeded to get married and never had any recurrence during their marrige, which lasted about ten years. They remain friends. 3. I was called by a concerned young wife (a different woman) about her husband, who seemed to be badly depressed.. okay, suicidal. This was uncharacteristic of him. So I arranged to meet him at his place of business after hours. I tried to assess the situation by asking a bunch of questions, but got only short answers like "i don't know". There seemed to be a void-like feeling, I coiuldn't feel anything one way or another, and usually I could at least get a reading, so to speak. So this was unusual. I told him that I suspected it might be an evil spirit and that I would like to give him a blessing. He said "I don't care", which I took to be permission (and it was). I went into the next room to pray first, and asked for ministering angels to assist me, as attributed to the Aaronic priesthood. I believed in such things (still do), and figured I needed all the help I could get. I went back into the room where he was, and asked him to come into the big room where I had gone to pray. I had a chair in the middle of the room with plenty of space around it for any angels that decided to show up. I told him that I had asked for angels to assist. I asked him if he thought I should anoint him with oil first.. He said "I don't know. I just don't know." Still figuring I could use all the help I could get, I anointed him and then sealed the anointing and gave him a blessing and used the word "we" when I commanded the evil spirit to depart. Apparently it did so. I believe completely of demonic possession, spoken of in scripture, because I would never doubt that Jesus Christ knew what he was doing, and knew the affliction of those he was healing. Even in the early Church such conditions existed as demons certainly sought to affect the early Saints, and sought to challenge the new Priesthood once again given to man. All in an effort to undermine anyone's newly found faith in the restoration, and all that came with it. I just wonder if some of these things, were just healing, as so many were unaware of mental illness, and other illnesses. Either way, as long as they were healed, little else matters. But in our day and age, we know the names of these illnesses, and know how to find cures, and treatments, as we never hear of the casting out of daemons anymore. I am not trying to be combative, I am only pointing out that in today's Church, such things are almost never taught of. My testimony is not lacking, and I do believe that we have the Priesthood, that is able to do all things. As I pointed out, I do not believe in the things I listed, as a general rule, outside the Church, and barely inside the Church. I believe the accounts in the early Church, but scaly inside the president day Church, as there are few. In our day and age, most things that in the past illness were labeled as demonic possession, are now treated with (by us) with priesthood blessing, and medication, because they are mental disorders. But it seems we have gotten of course, as I did not list in my opening post and thread, at least directly, if so only in passing. I spoke of magic, when others replied. We have Joseph's seer stone, but I doubt That it work with any other. Also a strong case to believe that we have other articles that would suggest that we still have the U&T, and quite possibly every thing Joseph received besides the "golden Plates", in Nauvoo. This as evidenced that when Hyrum asked Joseph to write and public D&C 132, so that he could take it to Emma, and show it to her. Joseph then told him that he did not know it, because it was revealed to him in 1832. Also that he had been told and warned, thus he knew it be heart. He then dictated it as fast as his scribe could write. A gift he had with so many sections of the D&C. Especially did this while in jail, who was without the U&T, or any other thing, dictated some of the most beautiful and meaningful scripture, ever known, which is why I love him so much. But to bring my thread back to it's intent, my point being. I don't believe in magic, as I do not view anything done by God, or by the power of the Priesthood as magic. As such I do not believe that "rocks" have any magical powers , I believe that those who live and act have Priesthood (or all who have unwavering faith) have power. Also "Talisman" only have power (which they do not) except by the faith of the believer. For example wearing a cross, only serves as a reminder, and that reminder gives us faith and righteousness, which gives us power, or, our garments can have the same "power", to remind, to strengthen our faith, which gives us power over all things. However all things I listed in the thread title, and the OP, reflects my belief that means, no power in the "unrepentant sinner", no power in "the pagan", no power in the "unbelieving", and no power "in those seeking a shortcut to righteousness". As such, I do not believe in any of these things having any magical powers, it is not the item, but in the owner and righteousness, in which any of these things, where any lasting value can be found. Sadly there are so few who fit this bill, to know, to qualify, and to have the courage to act. Where any such person, can aide in the work of a "perfect being", who is "made perfect though the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ". If done through such condition, only then will I believe.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I believe completely of demonic possession, spoken of in scripture, because I would never doubt that Jesus Christ knew what he was doing, and knew the affliction of those he was healing. Even in the early Church such conditions existed as demons certainly sought to affect the early Saints, and sought to challenge the new Priesthood once again given to man. All in an effort to undermine anyone's newly found faith in the restoration, and all that came with it. ................... I am only pointing out that in today's Church, such things are almost never taught of. My testimony is not lacking, and I do believe that we have the Priesthood, that is able to do all things. I quoted recent stories of exorcism in the LDS Church. Just because they are infrequent does not mean they do not take place. Bishops and stake presidents would be the likely persons needed to deal with such matters, and they would not likely talk about it from the pulpit. 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: .......................................... We have Joseph's seer stone, but I doubt That it work with any other. Also a strong case to believe that we have other articles that would suggest that we still have the U&T, ........................................... The LDS Church never had the Urim & Thummim. That strictly biblical item was never used by the Nephites nor by Joseph Smith. The Nephites had interpreters and they had the Liahona. I went over all of those items previously in this thread. How they are used and by whom. That should be well understood. 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: ................................ But to bring my thread back to it's intent, my point being. I don't believe in magic, as I do not view anything done by God, or by the power of the Priesthood as magic. As such I do not believe that "rocks" have any magical powers , I believe that those who live and act have Priesthood (or all who have unwavering faith) have power. Also "Talisman" only have power (which they do not) except by the faith of the believer. ............................., I do not believe in any of these things having any magical powers, it is not the item, but in the owner and righteousness, ...................................... You apparently did not understand our previous discussion of the relationship of "magic" and "religion," and are very confused as to what those words even mean. However, your beliefs are quite normal, and are the usual belief of most people in modern times (Mormon and non-Mormon). So it probably can't hurt to continue with those beliefs.
JLHPROF Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: But to bring my thread back to it's intent, my point being. I don't believe in magic, as I do not view anything done by God, or by the power of the Priesthood as magic. As such I do not believe that "rocks" have any magical powers , I believe that those who live and act have Priesthood (or all who have unwavering faith) have power. Also "Talisman" only have power (which they do not) except by the faith of the believer. For example wearing a cross, only serves as a reminder, and that reminder gives us faith and righteousness, which gives us power, or, our garments can have the same "power", to remind, to strengthen our faith, which gives us power over all things. However all things I listed in the thread title, and the OP, reflects my belief that means, no power in the "unrepentant sinner", no power in "the pagan", no power in the "unbelieving", and no power "in those seeking a shortcut to righteousness". As such, I do not believe in any of these things having any magical powers, it is not the item, but in the owner and righteousness, in which any of these things, where any lasting value can be found. You are missing the point here. The Liahona only worked by faith. The garments only offer protection by faith. Seer stones only work by faith. Priesthood blessings only work by faith. Consecrated oil only works by faith. Heck, the atonement of Jesus Christ only works by faith. That doesn't mean there isn't power in these things. They have spiritual components just as we do. They have a purpose and a correct usage. They are sacred - set apart to be holy items. Of course they don't work for random Joe Blow off the street. They aren't magic. But to say they don't have power in the hands of the faithful is wrong. To say they are just objects (ie, interchangeable with any object) is wrong. If Joseph's Seer Stone was just a rock utilizing his faith, then ANY rock would have done the job. The entire temple endowment is about providing power to the faithful (power which sadly has been greatly reduced and limited today). We don't like to think about power or a supernatural reality for some reason. One of my favorite President Packer quotes: We have done very well at distributing the authority of the priesthood. We have priesthood authority planted nearly everywhere. We have quorums of elders and high priests worldwide. But distributing the authority of the priesthood has raced, I think, ahead of distributing the power of the priesthood. The priesthood does not have the strength that it should have and will not have until the power of the priesthood is firmly fixed in the families as it should be. Edited October 24, 2017 by JLHPROF 1
Guest Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The LDS Church never had the Urim & Thummim. That strictly biblical item was never used by the Nephites nor by Joseph Smith. The Nephites had interpreters and they had the Liahona. I went over all of those items previously in this thread. How they are used and by whom. That should be well understood. Hyrum believed the Church still had the Urim & Thummim, as late as the Nauvoo years, and said so. So if I am in error, it is because I am quoting Church History.
Guest Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: You are missing the point here. The Liahona only worked by faith. The garments only offer protection by faith. Seer stones only work by faith. Priesthood blessings only work by faith. Consecrated oil only works by faith. Heck, the atonement of Jesus Christ only works by faith. I was making that point, not missing it. Did you see my last post, because you are preaching to the converted.
clarkgoble Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Hyrum believed the Church still had the Urim & Thummim, as late as the Nauvoo years, and said so. So if I am in error, it is because I am quoting Church History. Remember that the seer stones were also called the Urim and Thummim. He's probably referring to the white seer stone Joseph kept (as opposed to the dark one given to Oliver Cowdery). Joseph showed the white stone numerous times to the Apostles in Nauvoo and would discourse on it. Apparently Wilford Woodruff had the seer stone when he was President as did Lorenzo Snow. It appears that seer stone is still in the First Presidency vault, although there is a small chance it was lost after Snow (although that seems unlikely). Why the Church was willing to photograph the dark stone but not the white one isn't clear. Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff and others clearly saw the white stone as the more important one. Edited October 25, 2017 by clarkgoble
clarkgoble Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) On 10/22/2017 at 8:10 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I was speaking of the Church in this, or, our day. Lots of devils cast out in our day too. I've seen it done. 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: If Joseph's Seer Stone was just a rock utilizing his faith, then ANY rock would have done the job. I don't think that follows logically. That is I think you're assuming the objects aren't necessary whereas I'm far from convinced by that. To draw an analogy I have to have faith to turn on the light in the room. If I don't believe the switch will turn on the light I'd not turn it. However I can't by some pure will of faith make the light go on without the light switch. Noah's faith let him survive the flood but it happened because his faith worked through his boat. Joseph fairly late saw seer stones as important. Without saying things that shouldn't be said you should pay attention to what symbolically you receive in the endowment. Edited October 25, 2017 by clarkgoble 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 5 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Hyrum believed the Church still had the Urim & Thummim, as late as the Nauvoo years, and said so. So if I am in error, it is because I am quoting Church History. Yeah, some unlearned guys inserted that U&T term long after Joseph received the plates and interpreters, and a lot of people are misled by that.
Guest Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeah, some unlearned guys inserted that U&T term long after Joseph received the plates and interpreters, and a lot of people are misled by that. "Unlearned guys", I don't review Hyrum and the historians who wrote about this, as such.
JLHPROF Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 11 hours ago, clarkgoble said: I don't think that follows logically. That is I think you're assuming the objects aren't necessary whereas I'm far from convinced by that. To draw an analogy I have to have faith to turn on the light in the room. If I don't believe the switch will turn on the light I'd not turn it. However I can't by some pure will of faith make the light go on without the light switch. Noah's faith let him survive the flood but it happened because his faith worked through his boat. Joseph fairly late saw seer stones as important. Without saying things that shouldn't be said you should pay attention to what symbolically you receive in the endowment. I was making the point that the objects ARE necessary. Stating that the "rock" had no special properties is incorrect in my opinion. If faith is the gasoline, then these items are the vehicles. You need to gasoline to cause them to drive. But at the same time putting that same gasoline in a bucket isn't going to make the bucket drive. The tool being used by faith still has special properties.
JLHPROF Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 13 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I was making that point, not missing it. Did you see my last post, because you are preaching to the converted. I am apparently misunderstanding your position. Is it your position that the seer stone (for example) is just a rock and only worked for Joseph because of his faith?
Guest Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 11 hours ago, clarkgoble said: Lots of devils cast out in our day too. I've seen it done. I don't think that follows logically. That is I think you're assuming the objects aren't necessary whereas I'm far from convinced by that. Two things... 1. How did you hear about "lots" of demons being cast out. I would never doubt a personal experience, so you having seen is good enough for me. 2. I never said these objects were not necessary.
The Nehor Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 Trying to decide whether to become a wizard, a warlock, or a sorcerer. Any recommendations? Anyone have a pro and cons list?
Guest Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I am apparently misunderstanding your position. Is it your position that the seer stone (for example) is just a rock and only worked for Joseph because of his faith? I do believe that only by faith, and obedience, can any such object function, just like the Liahona. Do you believe otherwise?
clarkgoble Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Two things... 1. How did you hear about "lots" of demons being cast out. I would never doubt a personal experience, so you having seen is good enough for me. 2. I never said these objects were not necessary. Ah, I took you as implying the seer stone wasn't necessary. My bad. As for "lots" I've just had many discussions over the years of people doing it first hand. It's simply not at all uncommon. Particularly on missions. (Although I recognize the tales get distorted in the telling and become urban legends) And in many cases it's simply not something that could be confused with mental illness. Although as I said I'm of the opinion that many cases in the past actually were tied to mental illness. Edited October 25, 2017 by clarkgoble
clarkgoble Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeah, some unlearned guys inserted that U&T term long after Joseph received the plates and interpreters, and a lot of people are misled by that. I think there's some indication Joseph did it, albeit indirect. Certainly Brigham's account of Joseph explaining the Urim and Thummim and white seer stone to the twelve in Nauvoo strongly suggests Joseph used the term Urim and Thummim and not just interpreters.
JLHPROF Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I do believe that only by faith, and obedience, can any such object function, just like the Liahona. Do you believe otherwise? Not at all. I agree with you. But I also believe sacred objects are special and while they require faith to function, these items that utilize faith are special in and of themselves. The garments are another example. They offer protection when we are faithful. When we are not they don't. But they have attributes that allow them to offer protection to the faithful that a pair of jeans and a t-shirt will not offer to the same faithful wearer. That makes the garment more than just fabric.
clarkgoble Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 5 hours ago, The Nehor said: Trying to decide whether to become a wizard, a warlock, or a sorcerer. Any recommendations? Anyone have a pro and cons list? Warlock sounds much better. Wizard sounds like some old guy with a long beard, bad complexion and a tall goofy looking hat. Sorcerer seems a bit pompous. Like you'd be doing magic, but doing it while wearing goofy goth clubware. Warlock just seems like you're a pragmatic get to the point kind of magic user.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 5 hours ago, clarkgoble said: I think there's some indication Joseph did it, albeit indirect. Certainly Brigham's account of Joseph explaining the Urim and Thummim and white seer stone to the twelve in Nauvoo strongly suggests Joseph used the term Urim and Thummim and not just interpreters. Yes, but you are confusing Joseph's acquiesence in doing so long after other Brethren had adopted the term. It is a matter of fact that the U&T were never used by the Nephites, and that the term was mistakenly adopted in the 1830s. Such a phenomenon is not unusual among ordinary people. A scholar would never make that mistake.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 6 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: "Unlearned guys", I don't review Hyrum and the historians who wrote about this, as such. Which scholars do you believe made that claim? I know of none. Anyone actually acquainted with the facts could not make that mistake.
Bernard Gui Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) Do you find this account of how the High Priest used the precious stones in his breastplate consistent with Joseph Smith's use of the seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon? Quote The High Priest stands facing the Ark of the Testimony, and the questioner stands behind him, facing the priest's back. The questioner does not speak out loud, neither does he merely think the question in his heart; he poses his query quietly, to himself - like someone who prayers quietly before his Creator. For example, he will ask "Shall I go out to battle, or shall I not go out?" The High Priest is immediately enveloped by the spirit of Divine inspiration. He gazes at the breastplate, and by meditating upon the holy names of G-d, the priest was able to receive the answer through a prophetic vision-the letters on the stones of the breastplate, which would shine forth in his eyes in a special manner, spelling out the answer to the question. The priest then informs the questioner of the answer. http://www.templeinstitute.org/beged/priestly_garments-8.htm And this interesting comment about tribal knowledge ("The knowledge and technology of tribal peoples, primitive peoples, and ancient humans does not really appear in the modern scientific scheme, unless it is to be found within the minor articulations of the concept of cultural evolution hidden the backwaters of anthropology, sociology, and history....usually accompanied by the patronizing view that although tribals and primitives did originate the idea or the practice, they could not have possibly understood its significance...) by Vine DeLoria, Native American leader and scholar...Power and Place, 2001, pp 58-59.... Quote Medicine rocks abounded and certain kinds of crystals were used for divining future events....Almost everything in nature gave lessons on how the humans should most profitably live. Seems to me that if we are to allow that God can communicate with man either through visual and aural means or through spiritual feelings or impressions, then we should also allow that he can use material objects to communicate. After all, a smart phone is simply a collection of inanimate materials organized to allow electrical currents to create their magic. My grandparents would have thought it was magical. Edited October 29, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
clarkgoble Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Do you find this account of how the High Priest used the precious stones in his breastplate consistent with Joseph Smith's use of the seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon? There's lots of theories about how the Urim and Thummim proper worked. Several theories involve light although in some cases the speculation is flashing. But there's really no sources close to the period prior to the Babylonian conquest that could be trusted.
boblloyd91 Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 On 10/24/2017 at 11:08 AM, Robert F. Smith said: Not so, Bill. Here are some comments from a previous thread on Exorcism at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/53091-exorcism-in-the-lds-church/ The prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. when relating events of his First Vision as published in the 'Times and Seasons' newspaper, talks of an evil possession (that even bound his tongue)while first attempting to pray vocally in the grove. (LDS Joseph Smith History 1:15-16) I recall two apostles in the 1830-1844 church while on mission in England, were involved in an exorcism of a man with demonic possession. This account might be in the 'Docudrama of the Restoration'. I'll see if I can find it again. -------------------- Elder L. Edward Brown formerly of the 70 talks about this at a BYUI devotional from some years ago http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2003_01_14_Brown.htm -------------------- 1: I was a missionary, and we were teaching this couple, showing them the old First Vision filmstrip. This usually made a strong positive impression on people; most said that they "felt the spirit' during it, and I usually did. So afterwards we asked the couple what they felt. The wife was almost catatonic; conscious but non-responsive. My companion and I both felt something cold & terrifying, and he whispered to me "it's Satan". I'm not sure it was the big guy himself, but I knew what he meant. We anointed her with consecrated oil and gave her a blessing, after which she was suddenly fine. My companion and I felt much better too, maybe as much out of relief as anything else. She told us of the experience from her perspective. She said that right at the moment when the Father and Son appear to Joseph Smith - which is supposed to be the cue for the Holy Spirit to come in - she said "it entered me". She said something entered her mind and/or body and began laughing at her. She could see his face, and he was very handsome. His laughter was so loud that it drowned out the rest of the film, as well as all the questions we asked her afterward as we were trying to figure out what was going on. She said she could tell we were speaking to her, but she couldn't really hear us. She went on to say that when we put the "water" on her head, "it was very afraid". She said that right in the middle of the prayer (blessing) it suddenly left. To the best of my knowledge neither she nor her husband were ever baptized. 2: A young couple that I was well acquainted with was engaged, and the girl began exhibiting strange behavior. She would become uncharactaristically negative, then become withdrawn and semi-catatonic, and not remember much about it afterwards. The young man tried to give her a blessing, and she physically fought him off. So I tried to put my hands on her head, and she began fighting me off. Her grip was amazingly strong. I was curious just how strong she was, so I let her grab me by the upper torso with both hands, under my armpits. She picked me up and threw me backwards about eight feet. I wasn't a big guy and she wasn't a big girl, but outside of a major adrenaline rush that was abnormal. Didn't really hurt much (I had a background in judo and could fall safely), but I was really surprised by her strength. On the other hand, her coordination was poor, and it was easy to twist and break her grip if I wanted to. This pushy-shovey-standup-wrestling match ensued, with one or another of the men present doing a "casting out" command from time to time. They only effect this had was to apparently enrage the girl, or whatever was controlling her. This continued for maybe five or ten minutes, and then she appeared to go to sleep. We were unable to awaken her. Well now was our opportunity to give her a blessing and we did so, but nothing happened. After sleeping for a couple of hours she awoke and seemed to be fine. I think there were several subsequent episodes, and never anything that might be called a successful casting out. I do not know what her perception of these events was. The couple intepreted it as Satan trying to keep them from getting married, so they proceeded to get married and never had any recurrence during their marrige, which lasted about ten years. They remain friends. 3. I was called by a concerned young wife (a different woman) about her husband, who seemed to be badly depressed.. okay, suicidal. This was uncharacteristic of him. So I arranged to meet him at his place of business after hours. I tried to assess the situation by asking a bunch of questions, but got only short answers like "i don't know". There seemed to be a void-like feeling, I coiuldn't feel anything one way or another, and usually I could at least get a reading, so to speak. So this was unusual. I told him that I suspected it might be an evil spirit and that I would like to give him a blessing. He said "I don't care", which I took to be permission (and it was). I went into the next room to pray first, and asked for ministering angels to assist me, as attributed to the Aaronic priesthood. I believed in such things (still do), and figured I needed all the help I could get. I went back into the room where he was, and asked him to come into the big room where I had gone to pray. I had a chair in the middle of the room with plenty of space around it for any angels that decided to show up. I told him that I had asked for angels to assist. I asked him if he thought I should anoint him with oil first.. He said "I don't know. I just don't know." Still figuring I could use all the help I could get, I anointed him and then sealed the anointing and gave him a blessing and used the word "we" when I commanded the evil spirit to depart. Apparently it did so. After the blessing he was quite animated. He told me that he'd had this fog in his mind that made it very difficult for him to folllow what I was saying. He had wanted to give specific answers to my questions, but for some reason he was unable to force himself to do so against the fog. When I asked him about using the oil, the voice in his head said, "Great, you're letting me choose my own bullet." And then he said to himself , "Where did THAT come from??" That was the first time he realized there was something inside of him substituting its inner voice and its thoughts for his own. He felt it leave early in the blessing as I recall, before I got to the command. To the best of my knowledge, he had no recurrence. He and his wife split up a year or two later, which I was glad of, because she was very demeaning towards him. He is remarried and happy, and I don't know where she is. ------------------------ What do you think of the account of Newel Knight not only being strangely contorted but then actually being caught up off the floor and tossed about the room? Joseph rebuked the devil and Newel saw the devil leave. The story is discussed herehttps://books.google.com/books?id=_izMO9Xdq2UC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=joseph+smith+casting+out+devil&source=bl&ots=TjovWsrhwg&sig=X_VfuACiIezwqQsUAFVfAUH3QWA&hl=en&ei=3yxUTaugBIG8sQOK_LX7CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false (Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling, p. 115) and herehttps://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/05/joseph-smith-the-mighty-prophet-of-the-restoration?lang=eng ------------------------- James Faust: "It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned" http://lds.org/ensign/2007/01/the-forces-that-will-save-us?lang=eng The devil is real, evil spirits can and do possess mortals. The scriptures make this clear. What about Jesus casting out a legion of devils in Mark 5? Thanks Robert, were those three experiences yours out of curiosity?
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