Non Apostle First Presidency

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, ksfisher said:

A counselor in a bishopric, who does not hold priesthood keys, may give direction to deacons and teachers quorum presidents who do.  The authority by which the counselor operates is that of the bishop.

The same would be true of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.  A counselor in the First Presidency, under the direction of and by the authority of the President of the Church, could give direction to the Twelve.

It should also be remembered that while all the apostles hold the keys of the priesthood, it is only the president of the church who has the authority to use them.  Ultimately all officers of the church are acting under his direction and authority. 

 

This is the best answer.

If President Eyring were to be released or die and President Monson chose a High Priest to take the slot then that High Priest would be able to operate under the authority of President Monson to lead the apostles. The only difference would be his inability to pass on Priesthood keys he does not have, perform apostolic blessings, and things of that nature.

I suppose in theory you could even call an Elder, a non Priesthood holder, or Aaronic Priesthood holder and that would further limit their ability to use the Priesthood in the calling but I seem to remember in the scriptures that the First Presidency must be made up of High Priests (at least).

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Bingo.  This is the reason we struggle with understanding this concept.  The hierarchy structure has changed since the Lord defined it with Joseph the prophet.  There is this concept today that the FP is the highest and then the Q12 and then the Q70, but really the structure is flat according to section 107 and each of these three quorums are equal in authority.  Also keep in mind that the MP is higher than any of the offices in it.  If President Monson were to ask a regular elder from a ward to ordain someone to the office of Patriarch it would be correct.  If the president asked the same elder to ordain someone to the office of Apostle, it would be correct.  The MP is greater than all of the offices within and all actions of the priesthood are done under the authority of the President.

The Q12 is a High council for areas of the world not in a stake or mission district with its key responsibility being missionary work.  Somehow, this quorum was able to take more power than it was originally intended when the Lord defined responsibilities after the three witnesses to the BOM selected the Q12.

This is why when we read section 107 and then look at the current leadership structure we get confused.

While true that the section defines the Stake High Councils as equal in authority in the "affairs of the church" to the traveling council there is a problem with that interpretation. Verse 107 which you refer to reads:

"The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council."

The High Councils (plural) form a quorum equal in authority to the Twelve. In other words in the aggregate they are equal in the same way the Seventy is equal in authority to the Twelve. Meanwhile the First Presidency is to have twelve counselors that assist in making decisions over the entire church and there is no appeal on these decisions. In perpetuity those 12 counselors have been the Quorum of the Twelve though they do not necessarily have to be.

I disagree about the President being able to have anyone ordain anyone. He can direct the use of the Priesthood in all the keys he has but I do not know of any scripture allowing Elders to ordain Patriarch or Apostles (Apostles involve the transfer of keys). If they could it makes no sense to force apostles to have to show up and set apart sealers. They do it because they have the keys. If they could delegate it would make sense to ease that burden.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, 2BizE said:

....................................... when we read section 107 and then look at the current leadership structure we get confused.

Does the Restoration of all things mean that the variety of leadership structures used in the past, from the times of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and Jesus, till now, have recently been rolled together into one complex system which is more than the sum of its parts and history?  In other words, were we to take the structure and organization of a particular period (dispensation), would it or could it match our current conceptual notions?  Is there a rational way of sussing that out?

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Ordain has to do with an office.
Set Apart has to do with a calling.
.........................................

To ordain is to provide or invest with power & authority -- the right to function in some way.

To set apart is to sanctify a person or animal to a particular use or calling.

The church as the body of believers has the right to approve or disapprove such actions.  https://www.gotquestions.org/ordination.html .

Edited September 30, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[2BizE]

On 9/30/2017 at 12:51 AM, The Nehor said:

While true that the section defines the Stake High Councils as equal in authority in the "affairs of the church" to the traveling council there is a problem with that interpretation. Verse 107 which you refer to reads:

"The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency, or to the traveling high council."

The High Councils (plural) form a quorum equal in authority to the Twelve. In other words in the aggregate they are equal in the same way the Seventy is equal in authority to the Twelve. Meanwhile the First Presidency is to have twelve counselors that assist in making decisions over the entire church and there is no appeal on these decisions. In perpetuity those 12 counselors have been the Quorum of the Twelve though they do not necessarily have to be.

I disagree about the President being able to have anyone ordain anyone. He can direct the use of the Priesthood in all the keys he has but I do not know of any scripture allowing Elders to ordain Patriarch or Apostles (Apostles involve the transfer of keys). If they could it makes no sense to force apostles to have to show up and set apart sealers. They do it because they have the keys. If they could delegate it would make sense to ease that burden.

Let me give you another example.  The hierarchy structure of the MP from lowest to highest is Elder, Seventy, HP, Patriarch, Apostle.   When a new patriarch is called and set apart, a seventy is often sent to perform the ordination.  I have been in a stake conference where the seventy said he had been authorized by the FP to come and perform this ordination. This is an example of someone with a lower office ordaining someone to a higher office, all under the direction of the President.  No office within the MP is higher than the MP itself and he who holds the keys authorizes who he needs to do something.

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Let me give you another example.  The hierarchy structure of the MP from lowest to highest is Elder, Seventy, HP, Patriarch, Apostle.   When a new patriarch is called and set apart, a seventy is often sent to perform the ordination.  I have been in a stake conference where the seventy said he had been authorized by the FP to come and perform this ordination. This is an example of someone with a lower office ordaining someone to a higher office, all under the direction of the President.  No office within the MP is higher than the MP itself and he who holds the keys authorizes who he needs to do something.

For quite a long time now, stake presidents call and set apart stake patriarchs. A seventy is not "often sent to perform the ordination," and hasn't for a long time now.

The trajectory of evolution on this has been in favor of more local authority. Missionaries in my father's time had to be set apart for their missions by an apostle. Many of the local things formerly done by general authorities are now done by stake presidents. 

[Duncan]

Right now I am looking at an 1897 newspaper article predicting who will become the next Apostle, the headline is

 

"Wells and Kimball

Will probably be called to Apostleships

Some men are candidates"

Then there is a picture of Elders J. Golden Kimball and Rulon S. Wells of the 1st Council of Seventy. Of course neither were called as it turns out

I just thought it was bold of the writer to publicly speculate who they thought would fill the vacancies in the Twelve.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Right now I am looking at an 1897 newspaper article predicting who will become the next Apostle, the headline is

 

"Wells and Kimball

Will probably be called to Apostleships

Some men are candidates"

Then there is a picture of Elders J. Golden Kimball and Rulon S. Wells of the 1st Council of Seventy. Of course neither were called as it turns out

I just thought it was bold of the writer to publicly speculate who they thought would fill the vacancies in the Twelve.

D&C 118:6 Let my servant John Taylor, and also my servant John E. Page, and also my servant Wilford Woodruff, and also my servant Willard Richards, be appointed to fill the places of those who have fallen, and be officially notified of their appointment.

Brigham Young calls Joseph F. Smith

• "After the close of the prayer circle, President Brigham Young suddenly turned to his brethren and said, ‘Hold on, shall I do as I feel (led)? I always feel well to do as the Spirit constrains me,' " it states in the manual. " 'It is my mind to ordain Brother Joseph F. Smith to the Apostleship, and to be one of my counselors.’
  "He then called upon each of the brethren present for an expression of their feelings, and each responded individually stating that such action met with their hearty approval. The brethren then laid their hands upon the head of Joseph F.” 

1889 Revelation to John Taylor

• Thus saith the Lord to the Twelve, and to the Priesthood and people of my Church.
  Let my servants George Teasdale and Heber J. Grant be appointed to fill the vacancies in the Twelve, that you may be fully organized and prepared for the labors devolving upon you, for you have a great work to perform, and then proceed to fill up the presiding quorum of Seventies, and assist in organizing that body of my priesthood who are your co-laborers in the ministry. You may appoint Seymour B. Young to fill up the vacancy in the presiding quorum of Seventies, if he will conform to my law; for it is not meet that men who will not abide my law shall preside over my priesthood; and then proceed forthwith and call to your aid any assistance that you may require from among the Seventies to assist you in your labors in introducing and maintaining the gospel among the Lamanites throughout the land. And then let High Priests be selected, under the direction of the First Presidency, to preside over the various organizations that shall exist among this people; that those who receive the Gospel may be taught in the doctrines of my church and in the ordinances and laws thereof, and also in the things pertaining to my Zion and my Kingdom, saith the Lord, that they may be one with you in my Church and my Kingdom.

That's how I'd like to hope it still happens.
 

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 118:6 Let my servant John Taylor, and also my servant John E. Page, and also my servant Wilford Woodruff, and also my servant Willard Richards, be appointed to fill the places of those who have fallen, and be officially notified of their appointment.

Brigham Young calls Joseph F. Smith

• "After the close of the prayer circle, President Brigham Young suddenly turned to his brethren and said, ‘Hold on, shall I do as I feel (led)? I always feel well to do as the Spirit constrains me,' " it states in the manual. " 'It is my mind to ordain Brother Joseph F. Smith to the Apostleship, and to be one of my counselors.’
  "He then called upon each of the brethren present for an expression of their feelings, and each responded individually stating that such action met with their hearty approval. The brethren then laid their hands upon the head of Joseph F.” 

1889 Revelation to John Taylor

• Thus saith the Lord to the Twelve, and to the Priesthood and people of my Church.
  Let my servants George Teasdale and Heber J. Grant be appointed to fill the vacancies in the Twelve, that you may be fully organized and prepared for the labors devolving upon you, for you have a great work to perform, and then proceed to fill up the presiding quorum of Seventies, and assist in organizing that body of my priesthood who are your co-laborers in the ministry. You may appoint Seymour B. Young to fill up the vacancy in the presiding quorum of Seventies, if he will conform to my law; for it is not meet that men who will not abide my law shall preside over my priesthood; and then proceed forthwith and call to your aid any assistance that you may require from among the Seventies to assist you in your labors in introducing and maintaining the gospel among the Lamanites throughout the land. And then let High Priests be selected, under the direction of the First Presidency, to preside over the various organizations that shall exist among this people; that those who receive the Gospel may be taught in the doctrines of my church and in the ordinances and laws thereof, and also in the things pertaining to my Zion and my Kingdom, saith the Lord, that they may be one with you in my Church and my Kingdom.

That's how I'd like to hope it still happens.
 

My post was about Apostolic speculation that was printed in the newspaper, i'm sure your post is how it is still, and always, done

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Duncan said:

My post was about Apostolic speculation that was printed in the newspaper, i'm sure your post is how it is still, and always, done

Makes me wonder if there are rules that God follows in the choosing.  When people start throwing out names it's like we think we understand how the Lord chooses.
I'd love it if the Lord threw a real curveball once in a while like he used to.  Not call a seventy or presiding Bishopric member.
Just some random faithful stake president from somewhere nobody has heard of.  Not a previous General Authority or Auxiliary head or President of BYU.

I'd love to see a humble nobody.
 

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Makes me wonder if there are rules that God follows in the choosing.  When people start throwing out names it's like we think we understand how the Lord chooses.
I'd love it if the Lord threw a real curveball once in a while like he used to.  Not call a seventy or presiding Bishopric member.
Just some random faithful stake president from somewhere nobody has heard of.  Not a previous General Authority or Auxiliary head or President of BYU.

I'd love to see a humble nobody.
 

well, in 1897 when that article was printed Abraham O. Woodruff was one of the two men called to the 12, he wasn't any big calling all he was was Pres. Woodruff's son or one of them. I read that some of the other brethren grumbled about his appointment