Pres. Uchtdorf at first session: the g and s building

[Bobbieaware]

55 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for pointing this talk out, I love Elder Uchtdorf, he is hands down my favorite of the fifteen right now.   I listened to the talk, and I liked quite a bit of it.  I think his commentary on the G&S building needs to be looked at within the context of his earlier discussion in the talk about how we often exclude others who are in different groups because of how we perceive them as different than us.  

I think we find ourselves in the G&S building whenever we seek to make fun of other groups without actually looking at their perspectives and seeking to be charitable towards them.  This would place many orthodox members in the G&S building as I often find members who don't seek to understand the perspectives of various groups like the LGBT community or Ordain Women or Black lives Matter or Secular Humanists, or Atheists, making fun of these groups and having scorn for them precisely without attempting to empathize or understand those groups.  Of course those groups are guilty of this same G&S building mentality whenever they seek to make fun of religions without attempting to empathize or understand the perspectives of people within that faith.  

The G&S building metaphor is one that speaks to me as a call for the core principles of the gospel.  The call to hold to the iron rod is not a call to religious orthodoxy, dogma or avoiding doubt in religion.  Its a call to the principles of love, charity, grace, service, understanding and inclusiveness.  The kind of doubt we should avoid is a doubt that those principles will work when they are employed.  Whenever we exercise those principles in our lives we are holding to the rod of iron.  Whenever we choose to put our own pride and selfishness above these principles, then we belong in the G&S building.  

1) Do you see a difference between trying to understand Ordain Women, Black Lives Matter, Secular Humanists, Atheists, etc., and embracing and welcoming such people into the fold of God? 

2) Do you perceive the individuals in these groups are numbered among those who are holding fast to the iron rod and continually partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, or do you view them as also being numbered among those who occupy the great and spacious building?

3) If you agree these groups are not numbered among those who are clinging to the iron rod and the tree of life but that they are  numbered among the multitudes gathered within the great and spacious building, do you advocate that the faithful saints should let go of the iron rod and leave the tree of life so they can cross the river of filthiness and enter into the great and spacious building in order to establish dialogue?

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Bobbieaware said:

1) Do you see a difference between trying to understand Ordain Women, Black Lives Matter, Secular Humanists, Atheists, etc., and embracing and welcoming such people into the fold of God? 

2) Do you perceive the individuals in these groups are numbered among those who are holding fast to the iron rod and continually partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, or do you view them as also being numbered among those who occupy the great and spacious building?

3) If you agree these groups are not numbered among those who are clinging to the iron rod and the tree of life but that they are  numbered among the multitudes gathered within the great and spacious building, do you advocate that the faithful saints should let go of the iron rod and leave the tree of life so they can cross the river of filthiness and enter into the great and spacious building in order to establish dialogue?

 

I assume this was directed at Hope but I'd like to submit my answers for consideration:

1)  Yes.  Understanding someone and welcoming them into the fold of God are different things.  We ought to strive for both.

2)  Some of the individuals in the groups are holding fast to the iron rod.  Some are in the G&S building.  The same can be said if we add LDS to the list of groups.  That's the point of Hope's interpretation (I believe).

3)  I don't agree with your premise.  See answers to 1 & 2.

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

1) Do you see a difference between trying to understand Ordain Women, Black Lives Matter, Secular Humanists, Atheists, etc., and embracing and welcoming such people into the fold of God? 

I think they already are part of the fold of God, which includes all of creation.  Should they be invited into conversation with religionists, yes, and should we build bridges to these groups and learn from each other, yes.  Should the Mormon church adopt all perspectives of every group that exists, no.  The church should seek for truth wherever it can find it, that is Mormonism. 

18 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

2) Do you perceive the individuals in these groups are numbered among those who are holding fast to the iron rod and continually partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, or do you view them as also being numbered among those who occupy the great and spacious building?

I think everyone has been in both the G&S and holding to the iron rod and various positions in between, depending on where they are at in life.  

20 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

3) If you agree these groups are not numbered among those who are clinging to the iron rod and the tree of life but that they are  numbered among the multitudes gathered within the great and spacious building, do you advocate that the faithful saints should let go of the iron rod and leave the tree of life so they can cross the river of filthiness and enter into the great and spacious building in order to establish dialogue?

We all need to help each other, we shouldn't stigmatize those in various places along the path.  We also need to be careful when we self identify as holding to the iron rod, we may think we're holding to the rod, but we really are in the G&S building.  Humility and love are key, and salvation is communal, we need each other to be saved.  That is the call of the gospel for me.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by hope_for_things

[Bobbieaware]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I assume this was directed at Hope but I'd like to submit my answers for consideration:

1)  Yes.  Understanding someone and welcoming them into the fold of God are different things.  We ought to strive for both.

2)  Some of the individuals in the groups are holding fast to the iron rod.  Some are in the G&S building.  The same can be said if we add LDS to the list of groups.  That's the point of Hope's interpretation (I believe).

3)  I don't agree with your premise.  See answers to 1 & 2.

How is it possible that some of these people, who by profession reject the very existence of the word of God and the fruit of the tree of life (the blessings of God extended to mankind through the atonement of Jesus Christ), holding fast to the word of God and partaking of the fruit of the tree of life?

[juliann]

19 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

 

2) Do you perceive the individuals in these groups are numbered among those who are holding fast to the iron rod and continually partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, or do you view them as also being numbered among those who occupy the great and spacious building?

 

 

Have you assigned them there? Where do you place yourself?

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Isn't that what Hope_For_Things described?

 

16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thats what I was thinking too, sounds like Scott agrees with me on this one, which I will be happy to note is a rare thing.    Unless not, in which case maybe he can clarify where he disagrees.  

Well, I'm not so sure about that.

For one thing, he didn't say much, if anything, to affirm what President Uchtdorf had said in his talk other than to give a rather generic, non-specific nod, saying that he "liked quite a bit of it."

And he said, "The call to hold to the iron rod is not a call to religious orthodoxy, dogma or avoiding doubt in religion," which could be viewed as a veiled contradiction of a portion of President Uchtdorf's talk.

So if hope_for_things agrees with me, wonderful, but that's not altogether clear from his earlier post.

 

[hope_for_things]

18 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I assume this was directed at Hope but I'd like to submit my answers for consideration:

1)  Yes.  Understanding someone and welcoming them into the fold of God are different things.  We ought to strive for both.

2)  Some of the individuals in the groups are holding fast to the iron rod.  Some are in the G&S building.  The same can be said if we add LDS to the list of groups.  That's the point of Hope's interpretation (I believe).

3)  I don't agree with your premise.  See answers to 1 & 2.

Thanks Rockpond, and sorry if you saw my first edit of a response to Bobbieaware.  I actually got your two messages mixed up and thought I was replying to him, but I took part of your response and mixed the two.  I fixed it, but I was confused at first.  :-)  

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

How is it possible that some of these people, who by profession reject the very existence of the word of God and the fruit of the tree of life (the blessings of God extended to mankind through the atonement of Jesus Christ), holding fast to the word of God and partaking of the fruit of the tree of life?

By following the principles of the gospel of course.  You don't have to believe in God to follow those principles, you just have to do good.  The gospel is about fruits and beliefs only in as much as you follow the principles.  Think of the Good Samaritan parable, it doesn't matter what religion he aligns with or if he aligns with any religion at all.  

[bluebell]

I think it makes more sense for the rod to be the gospel and the g and s building to be those who mock those who try to follow the gospel instead of following the world.  I've never seen it as a member/non member dichotomy.  

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

By following the principles of the gospel of course.  You don't have to believe in God to follow those principles, you just have to do good.  The gospel is about fruits and beliefs only in as much as you follow the principles.  Think of the Good Samaritan parable, it doesn't matter what religion he aligns with or if he aligns with any religion at all.  

Since the gospel, at its core, is that Jesus Christ took on mortality to effect the Atonement for all mankind on condition of repentance, it in fact does follow that you have to believe in God to follow the principles of the gospel. As much as you would like to separate the tree from its roots, it just doesn't work.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it makes more sense for the rod to be the gospel and the g and s building to be those who mock those who try to follow the gospel instead of following the world.  I've never seen it as a member/non member dichotomy.  

Nephi himself (or the angel) identifies the iron rod as the word of God.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nephi himself (or the angel) identifies the iron rod as the word of God.

I don't see any difference between the word of God and the gospel.  Do you see them as being different?

[rockpond]

50 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

How is it possible that some of these people, who by profession reject the very existence of the word of God and the fruit of the tree of life (the blessings of God extended to mankind through the atonement of Jesus Christ), holding fast to the word of God and partaking of the fruit of the tree of life?

The rod is the word of God and the fruit is the love of God.  There is a family that lives three doors down from me.  Their son is very close friend's with my son.  We've been good friends for almost a decade now.  This family is atheist and their words and actions embody everything that the gospel stands for.  They honor and respect our beliefs.  They certainly aren't in the G&S building.  They aren't wandering in the mists as they live their life with a very clear and good moral purpose.  They are quick to extend charity and forgiveness.  I have no reason to believe that they aren't holding to the iron rod to the very best that they understand it.  And, I have no doubt that are or will taste the fruit... the love of God... whether they recognize it as that or not.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The rod is the word of God and the fruit is the love of God.  There is a family that lives three doors down from me.  Their son is very close friend's with my son.  We've been good friends for almost a decade now.  This family is atheist and their words and actions embody everything that the gospel stands for.  They honor and respect our beliefs.  They certainly aren't in the G&S building.  They aren't wandering in the mists as they live their life with a very clear and good moral purpose.  They are quick to extend charity and forgiveness.  I have no reason to believe that they aren't holding to the iron rod to the very best that they understand it.  And, I have no doubt that are or will taste the fruit... the love of God... whether they recognize it as that or not.

Is it your belief then that in order to 'taste of the fruit' and gain enteral life, which is the love of God, a person just needs to be a good person?

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Is it your belief then that in order to 'taste of the fruit' and gain enteral life, which is the love of God, a person just needs to be a good person?

They'll also have to acknowledge Christ's role in granting them salvation.  But that doesn't have to happen in this life.

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't see any difference between the word of God and the gospel.  Do you see them as being different?

 

No.

I was in fact agreeing with you. Sorry you couldn't tell.

 

[Bobbieaware]

42 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

By following the principles of the gospel of course.  You don't have to believe in God to follow those principles, you just have to do good.  The gospel is about fruits and beliefs only in as much as you follow the principles.  Think of the Good Samaritan parable, it doesn't matter what religion he aligns with or if he aligns with any religion at all.  

So you acknowledge the Gospel is is about both fruits (works) AND beliefs -- "The gospel is about fruits and beliefs only in as much as you follow the principles. Is the following corollary to the above equally valid? 'The Gospel is about beliefs and the fruits of belief, only in as much as what is believed is true.'

By the way, you surely are aware of the fact that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are 1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. 2) Repentance. 3) Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. 4) The laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. 5) Enduring to the end by faith in Jesus Christ. So is it possible to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ without believing in and performing the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel? 

Another question: Can you name one good thing the atheists have that the Latter-Day Saints don't already have?

[Bobbieaware]

45 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The rod is the word of God and the fruit is the love of God.  There is a family that lives three doors down from me.  Their son is very close friend's with my son.  We've been good friends for almost a decade now.  This family is atheist and their words and actions embody everything that the gospel stands for.  They honor and respect our beliefs.  They certainly aren't in the G&S building.  They aren't wandering in the mists as they live their life with a very clear and good moral purpose.  They are quick to extend charity and forgiveness.  I have no reason to believe that they aren't holding to the iron rod to the very best that they understand it.  And, I have no doubt that are or will taste the fruit... the love of God... whether they recognize it as that or not.

What they are experiencing now, through the light of Christ, is what amounts to steps toward the greater revelation of truth and faith that will come when they finally embrace Jesus Christ as their Savior. The way they are now conducting their lives will hopefully make it easier for them to embrace the Redeemer when that day of decision comes. But be it known that the day of decision will come when they will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ or they can in no wise be saved in any of the kingdoms of glory. For it is written:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

Edited September 26, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[rockpond]

52 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

What they are experiencing now, through the light of Christ, is what amounts to steps toward the greater revelation of truth and faith that will come when they finally embrace Jesus Christ as their Savior. The way they are now conducting their lives will hopefully make it easier for them to embrace the Redeemer when that day of decision comes. But be it known that the day of decision will come when they will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ or they can in no wise be saved in any of the kingdoms of glory. For it is written:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

I didn't suggest otherwise.  And I know of nobody more Christlike than the particular family that I described.  So I have no concerns for their eternal salvation.

Also, it's good of so many here to jump in and so accurately demonstrate Hope for Thing's interpretation/application of Lehi's dream.  Well done.

[Jeanne]

I have few athiests friends..so I am no big authority on athiests..but I do marvel that they do good things..with humility and without caring and perhaps even knowing of any rewards or promises.  Doing good for good's sakes without expectations is something maybe is  that I believe is lacking in all churches. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jeanne

[Maidservant]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for pointing this talk out, I love Elder Uchtdorf, he is hands down my favorite of the fifteen right now.   I listened to the talk, and I liked quite a bit of it.  I think his commentary on the G&S building needs to be looked at within the context of his earlier discussion in the talk about how we often exclude others who are in different groups because of how we perceive them as different than us.  

I think we find ourselves in the G&S building whenever we seek to make fun of other groups without actually looking at their perspectives and seeking to be charitable towards them.  This would place many orthodox members in the G&S building as I often find members who don't seek to understand the perspectives of various groups like the LGBT community or Ordain Women or Black lives Matter or Secular Humanists, or Atheists, making fun of these groups and having scorn for them precisely without attempting to empathize or understand those groups.  Of course those groups are guilty of this same G&S building mentality whenever they seek to make fun of religions without attempting to empathize or understand the perspectives of people within that faith.  

The G&S building metaphor is one that speaks to me as a call for the core principles of the gospel.  The call to hold to the iron rod is not a call to religious orthodoxy, dogma or avoiding doubt in religion.  Its a call to the principles of love, charity, grace, service, understanding and inclusiveness.  The kind of doubt we should avoid is a doubt that those principles will work when they are employed.  Whenever we exercise those principles in our lives we are holding to the rod of iron.  Whenever we choose to put our own pride and selfishness above these principles, then we belong in the G&S building.  

Love.

[Maidservant]

 

President Uchtdorf's Talk Video

6:08  "vast span of your premortal life"  (just liked that . . .)

8:38 to 14:53  "She didn't think of herself as a mean person."

9:55 (to 11:00)  recent study of rival groups

11:00 history lesson about WWII inc. 11:25 identified another group of people and encourage hatred toward them; silenced those they did not like; they shamed and demonized them;

11:58  "When someone opposes or disagrees with us, it's attempting to assume that there must be something wrong with them."

12:20  Of course we must always stand for what is right and there are times to raise our voices for that cause.  But do it without hurting, shaming, or silencing the others.

12:47 The Savior taught us to love our enemies, do good to them who hate you, pray for those who despitefully use and persecute us "that you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven"  "THIS is the Savior's way."

14:20 whether or not they return our love does "not change our commitment to follow Jesus Christ" (i.e. to love THEM)

14:24 "As members of The Church of Jesus Christ, we will love our enemies.  We will overcome anger or hate.  We will fill our hearts with love for all of God's children [Uchtdorf emphasis].  We will reach out to bless others and minister to them, even those who might despitefully use us and persecute us. "

14:55 the authentic disciple of Jesus Christ  . . . she trusted God in the face of ridicule and hardship . . . she lived joyfully despite the scorn and cynicism around her . . . none of us makes it through life's journey unopposed.  How do we keep our vision fixed on the glorious happiness promised to the faithful?  15:45 Lehi's dream . . . happiness and abiding peace, iron rod that helped them stay on the path, mists obscured path AND tree, laughter and ridicule coming from spacious building . . . people scoffing looked happy and like they were having a good time . . . steadfast walk toward salvation . . . stay on the path, never let go, don't be ashamed for partaking of the LOVE OF GOD . . . rich blessings are in store

 

Anyway, I took it to mean that the love of God of the tree was the teachings that he (Uchtdorf) gave earlier in the talk, loving our enemies (GIVING the love of God) and knowing who we are, and our deliberate joyfulness.

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since the gospel, at its core, is that Jesus Christ took on mortality to effect the Atonement for all mankind on condition of repentance, it in fact does follow that you have to believe in God to follow the principles of the gospel. As much as you would like to separate the tree from its roots, it just doesn't work.

So you're more a believer in faith than works it sounds like?   

[Rich Hansen]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

 

Another question: Can you name one good thing the atheists have that the Latter-Day Saints don't already have?

Nobel prizes.

 

[Bobbieaware]

11 hours ago, juliann said:

Have you assigned them there? Where do you place yourself?

Unlike some visions found in the scriptures, Lehi' dream is a rather easy one to understand. The vision is speaking specifically of people who either embrace Christ and his gospel or those reject Christ and the gospel. So at least according to Lehi's vision, those who hold fast to the iron rod of the word of God and partake of the fruit of the tree of life are believers in Christ. It's a real stretch to imagine that some of those who are holding fast to the word of God are people who don't even believe God exists.  

The vision also strongly suggests one is not justified in coming to the conclusion that every unbeliever will eventually wind up being found within the walls of the great and spacious building. This is because the particular class of unbelievers who occupy the great and spacious building are the sort who enjoy mocking and putting down others. Meanwhile there are other unbelievers who have enough of the light of Christ dwelling within them -- even though they don't realize they do -- that they are inclined to be kind to others and not of the disposition to mock and make fun of religious people for their deeply-held beliefs. Nevertheless, one cannot conclude these kinder unbelievers are going to be found among those believers in God who are holding fast to the word of God in Lehi's dream. But the day of their encounter with God and their tests of faith on the path of the iron rod that leads to the tree of life will come sooner or later.

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. (D&C 1)

Because I believe in Christ and am holding fast to the word of God, I believe I am one of those clinging to the iron rod somewhere along the path that leads to the tree of life. And there have even been days when I have tasted the fruit.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Bobbieaware