Poll: Most Protestants and Catholics believe faith and works are necessary for salvation

[Gray]

File this under, "we're more alike than different, despite the theological arguments that spring up over this on the internet"

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/31/poll-most-protestants-and-catholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

Edited September 2, 2017 by Gray

[HappyJackWagon]

I had a fun conversation with an evangelical friend this past weekend about grace and works. He claimed that it is heresy to believe and claim that works has anything to do with salvation. It is 100% grace, he said. Yet he also claimed that a person MUST accept Christ and MUST be baptized. When I said, "Well, aren't those works?" He got confused and a little agitated.

Though he claimed 100% grace there were still things a person needed to do to be saved. So may be it is only 99% grace  

[rongo]

25 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I had a fun conversation with an evangelical friend this past weekend about grace and works. He claimed that it is heresy to believe and claim that works has anything to do with salvation. It is 100% grace, he said. Yet he also claimed that a person MUST accept Christ and MUST be baptized. When I said, "Well, aren't those works?" He got confused and a little agitated.

Though he claimed 100% grace there were still things a person needed to do to be saved. So may be it is only 99% grace  

I've found that, too. When you ask them if having faith is a work, and they say no, and you ask them why, they really struggle with that. It's something that some people do, and other people don't, and the doing or not doing determines whether or not you're saved. 

Double bonus if they have a TULIP bent, because trying to explain why having faith isn't a work smokes them out into saying that we can't choose whether we have faith or not --- we've either been elected by God to have faith or we haven't --- and no amount of effort on our part will change that. Then why even try to convince me to reject Mormon Jesus and accept TULIP Jesus? I have no say in the matter . . .  

[stemelbow]

26 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've found that, too. When you ask them if having faith is a work, and they say no, and you ask them why, they really struggle with that.

I haven't seen the struggle you mention.  The response is usually faith is given of God.  Effective faith produces works, but those works are directed through faith and aren't the requirement for salvation.  Often it's said it's God working in you. I mean philosophically I think you and I agree, but that doesn't mean they haven't thought this through.   

26 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's something that some people do, and other people don't, and the doing or not doing determines whether or not you're saved. 

I don't think that's a typical response. 

26 minutes ago, rongo said:

Double bonus if they have a TULIP bent, because trying to explain why having faith isn't a work smokes them out into saying that we can't choose whether we have faith or not --- we've either been elected by God to have faith or we haven't --- and no amount of effort on our part will change that. Then why even try to convince me to reject Mormon Jesus and accept TULIP Jesus? I have no say in the matter . . .  

Because God may use another to give faith to that other.  I'd agree with the OP there's more in agreement with each other then disagree, but I don't think we achieve that agreement by mischaracterizing or misunderstanding each other's perspective. 

[rongo]

Just now, stemelbow said:

I haven't seen the struggle you mention.  The response is usually faith is given of God.  Effective faith produces works, but those works are directed through faith and aren't the requirement for salvation.  Often it's said it's God working in you. I mean philosophically I think you and I agree, but that doesn't mean they haven't thought this through. 

They've thought it through, and it's an explanation that works for them, but it doesn't work well when trying to convince others who don't see it the same way (like, say, Mormons). It's a lot like explaining the Trinity. Their explanations work for them, but do not work well explaining it to non-trinitarians. To say the least (and they are painfully aware of the inadequacy of analogies and explanations of the Trinity).

That's the struggle. I find that they usually have never thought about or had to explain from that angle (so, why isn't having faith a work?), and they struggle when trying to explain this to someone to whom it seems like a work.

I don't think that's a typical response.

See above. I agree. It's when confronted with this new way of looking at it that they struggle (in my experience).

Because God may use another to give faith to that other.  I'd agree with the OP there's more in agreement with each other then disagree, but I don't think we achieve that agreement by mischaracterizing or misunderstanding each other's perspective.

I don't think it's mischaracterizing or misunderstanding; just a conversation between people from different perspectives. It's the explaining of a position to someone who doesn't share premises that provides the struggle. We Mormons are in this boat, too, because we certainly come at issues from different places. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

File this under, "we're more like than different, despite the theological arguments that spring up over this on the internet"

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/31/poll-most-protestants-and-catholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

Both Jesus and his brother James make a special point of works being necessary:

Matt 16:27 "the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Rev 20:13)

Jn 8:39 "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

Jn 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do"

Of course, without grace, no amount of works would be salvific.  But faith cannot exist in the absence of works.  The one demonstrates the other.

 

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Both Jesus and his brother James make a special point of works being necessary:

Matt 16:27 "the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Rev 20:13)

Jn 8:39 "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

Jn 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do"

Of course, without grace, no amount of works would be salvific.  But faith cannot exist in the absence of works.  The one demonstrates the other.

 

Indeed, a huge part of Jesus' message is good works being absolutely essential to salvation. The parable of the sheep and goats illustrates that very clearly.

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

File this under, "we're more like than different, despite the theological arguments that spring up over this on the internet"

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/31/poll-most-protestants-and-catholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

I would add "virtually all Mormons" to this group.

[Calm]

14 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think we achieve that agreement by mischaracterizing or misunderstanding each other's perspective. 

Just out of curiosity, when did you start hanging out on LDS related internet sites that included critics?

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Gray said:

File this under, "we're more like than different, despite the theological arguments that spring up over this on the internet"

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/31/poll-most-protestants-and-catholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

Sure but they don't have our other good stuff.

Hey I was Catholic.  They believe the same as we do that you have to try to be the best person you can be.  No difference regardless of the theology that no one understands anyway.

And what kind of good Christian Protestant is actually going to "sin boldly" as Luther advised?   No way!

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Just out of curiosity, when did you start hanging out on LDS related internet sites that included critics?

Approximatelt 20 years off and on.  My crap it's been a long time

I got home from my mission (summer of 97) and found some resources through chat rooms.  An evangelical lady and I became friends she started sending me different books to read.  Another guy who was a liberal (opposite of our lady friend) sent me competing books.  It all built from there.  

Edited September 2, 2017 by stemelbow

[Calm]

Thanks for the context...