Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Dan Peterson on the alleged indeterminacy of Mormon doctrine

Scott Lloyd

By Scott Lloyd
in General Discussions

Recommended Posts

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes I agree with you- note I went back and changed the post.   As usual I skimmed it and got the wrong impression and pulled the trigger without a clear target.  :fool:

My husband has a shirt that says "ready, fire, aim!"

it is a typical approach of inexperienced entrepreneurs.  Too eager to get to the fun stuff.

2
ALarson Grand Master

ALarson

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes I agree with you- note I went back and changed the post.   As usual I skimmed it and got the wrong impression and pulled the trigger without a clear target.  :fool:

No worries....happens to all of us.  And, I saw that you'd changed it! 

Marginal Gains Experienced

Marginal Gains

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why would that be against the laws of nature?  Water moves all the time.

But God is bound by eternal laws, not natural laws of a fallen world.  Christ walked on water, raised the dead, etc.  Clearly these were not violation of law, just transcending of mortal restrictions.
That doesn't mean God can break any law he chooses.  If he were to do that he would cease to be God.

Which eternal laws can’t He break?

Marginal Gains Experienced

Marginal Gains

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Alma 42:22

 

That’s not saying God can’t break the law of justice, merely that there’ll be consequences if He does. And that’s only Alma expressing his opinion.

Edited by Marginal Gains
Marginal Gains Experienced

Marginal Gains

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why would that be against the laws of nature?  Water moves all the time.

But God is bound by eternal laws, not natural laws of a fallen world.  Christ walked on water, raised the dead, etc.  Clearly these were not violation of law, just transcending of mortal restrictions.
That doesn't mean God can break any law he chooses.  If he were to do that he would cease to be God.

So you’re saying the parting of the Red Sea was simply the tide going out?

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

So you’re saying the parting of the Red Sea was simply the tide going out?

No.  I'm saying the water was held back by natural law.  God moved the water with the wind.  Simple water displacement.

Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Byebye water...
air-dryer.jpg

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Which eternal laws can’t He break?

The ones under which he operates - that make him God.
Scripture is full of this principle.

D&C 130:20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Alma 42:22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. 
AND 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

I Nephi 10:21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.

Just for starters.

1
Marginal Gains Experienced

Marginal Gains

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  I'm saying the water was held back by natural law.  God moved the water with the wind.  Simple water displacement.

Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Byebye water...
air-dryer.jpg

Interesting. How would a wind that blew with such consistent force that it could push and hold back water, in two directions simultaneously, not blow human beings away?

Navidad Grand Master

Navidad

Posted
Posted
On 8/30/2017 at 3:03 PM, mapman said:

The problem that people have isn't so much that the church doesn't have well-defined doctrine, but that it is refined over time. I guess some anti-Mormons hate this because it messes with them trying to hold things over our heads for all eternity. Some Mormons that have a fundamentalist way of understanding the church also seem to have problems with this.

For me it's a feature, not a bug. For example, I still don't get how it bothers people that the church changed its teachings about race. How is that anything but a good thing? I have seen anti-Mormons mock the church for this by saying that God "changed his mind" about race, yet presumably they should be happy that the church made this change?!

I think you bring up a good point. What often is difficult for someone like me is this. If I ask a question about LDS doctrine, it is recommended that I read Talmage, or McConkie or Roberts. So I buy those books and read them. Then the next person (LDS) comes along and says, of course we don't believe this or that any more. We are not your great grandfather's Mormon church any more (My paraphrase). So then I am told to read Givens or Millet. So I buy their books. Then the next person (Mormon) comes along and says , Oh don't read them, they don't have authority to represent the beliefs of the church. Then someone says read Robinson's little book or read "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder" and you will understand. Then someone else says - and on and on. I find this very confusing and frustrating. I currently have three LDS authored books on the Great Apostasy on my desk. Each has been recommended by someone different (Mormon). None of them say the same thing.

Most lately an elderly elder from here gave me a copy of Gospel Principles to help answer my questions on eternal destinies in LDS doctrine. I read the section on the three kingdoms in eternity; it says something very different than what he told me!  I was told yesterday that every Mormon priest is in his own way a little prophet. He is free to interpret LDS doctrine using his authority. Ok, but the next poster says God is a God of order and wouldn't create confusion. I think in this thread you all are having a very important discussion. I am enjoying reading it very much. And please, nothing I have written here is intended as criticism. It is the observation and experience with a little bit of frustration of a non-Mormon who is trying to understand; if it is helpful, then good, if it isn't, ignore it. 

mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I think you bring up a good point. What often is difficult for someone like me is this. If I ask a question about LDS doctrine, it is recommended that I read Talmage, or McConkie or Roberts. So I buy those books and read them. Then the next person (LDS) comes along and says, of course we don't believe this or that any more. We are not your great grandfather's Mormon church any more (My paraphrase). So then I am told to read Givens or Millet. So I buy their books. Then the next person (Mormon) comes along and says , Oh don't read them, they don't have authority to represent the beliefs of the church. Then someone says read Robinson's little book or read "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder" and you will understand. Then someone else says - and on and on. I find this very confusing and frustrating. I currently have three LDS authored books on the Great Apostasy on my desk. Each has been recommended by someone different (Mormon). None of them say the same thing.

Most lately an elderly elder from here gave me a copy of Gospel Principles to help answer my questions on eternal destinies in LDS doctrine. I read the section on the three kingdoms in eternity; it says something very different than what he told me!  I was told yesterday that every Mormon priest is in his own way a little prophet. He is free to interpret LDS doctrine using his authority. Ok, but the next poster says God is a God of order and wouldn't create confusion. I think in this thread you all are having a very important discussion. I am enjoying reading it very much. And please, nothing I have written here is intended as criticism. It is the observation and experience with a little bit of frustration of a non-Mormon who is trying to understand; if it is helpful, then good, if it isn't, ignore it. 

Yeah, thats about what I have been telling you, that is our strength

Can any human know everything there is to know about God?

Can you put an ocean in a hole you dig on the beach?

Vance Grand Master

Vance

Posted
Posted
On 9/3/2017 at 1:36 AM, Marginal Gains said:

Interesting. How would a wind that blew with such consistent force that it could push and hold back water, in two directions simultaneously, not blow human beings away?

Well, since YOU can't imagine a scenario, THEN it must be impossible.

 

1
Marginal Gains Experienced

Marginal Gains

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 03/09/2017 at 7:36 AM, Marginal Gains said:

Interesting. How would a wind that blew with such consistent force that it could push and hold back water, in two directions simultaneously, not blow human beings away?

 

16 hours ago, Vance said:

Well, since YOU can't imagine a scenario, THEN it must be impossible.

 

Are you able to imagine how, within the laws of nature, it might be possible? (I’m not saying it is impossible, it just seems to me to be impossible)

Edited by Marginal Gains
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...