thesometimesaint Posted August 20, 2017 Posted August 20, 2017 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Care to provide a link or example of the imminent demise rhetoric that's supposedly all over the blogosphere? http://religionnews.com/2016/04/19/mormon-growth-slows-to-its-lowest-level-since-1937-heres-why-thats-great-news/
thesometimesaint Posted August 20, 2017 Posted August 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Gray said: A while back there was an LDS-published article that talked about demographics of members of the church. One of the lines said something like of every 100 members, 36 attend church each week" or 36% are in church at a given time. Something like that. It was quickly edited out. Unfortunately my source for this is my own memory. Part of that is a fluck of statistics. We count total numbers attending each week in Sacrament Meeting, but report only members attending at least once every four weeks.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted August 20, 2017 Posted August 20, 2017 23 hours ago, clarkgoble said: Actually most statistics show the opposite. The number of believers is expected to increase quite a bit. Nones are decreasing overall. That may reverse as more nations become wealthy but it'll take awhile. The increase is predicted for the poor, uneducated regions and countries, right?
hope_for_things Posted August 20, 2017 Posted August 20, 2017 3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: http://religionnews.com/2016/04/19/mormon-growth-slows-to-its-lowest-level-since-1937-heres-why-thats-great-news/ This is your example of imminent demise rhetoric? I'm not seeing anything even close to that in the article.
Marginal Gains Posted August 25, 2017 Posted August 25, 2017 On 20/08/2017 at 4:13 PM, bluebell said: I don't understand these charges of "misleading" The church has 15 million members. The church reports that it has 15 million members. Where is the church being dishonest? I think the deception (self-delusion?) comes when portraying the Church as 15 million strong. It isn't. It's 5 million strong. Is a business 15 million customers 'strong' if only 5 million of their database buys from them? Is your purse $15 strong if you've only actually got $5 in it to spend?
Marginal Gains Posted August 25, 2017 Posted August 25, 2017 On 20/08/2017 at 4:10 PM, flameburns623 said: IMHO: no matter what church we are talking about, a third of the received members will be readily accounted for and usually attend to regular worship and practices. About a third will be highly fluid and mainly inactive, showing up mainly for funerals or big life events and (usually) self-identifying as members, but not recognizably, faithfully, practicing, supporting, or observant. And a third are pretty much lost to any particular group, on the rolls but with status unknown, or having made other spiritual commitments. Oddly, some unpredictable factor--a spiritual awakening, a personal crises, estrangement from other commitments, or even the sudden positive novelty of association--can bring some portion of that third back. (If Mitt Romney has won the presidency, and been a successful president, this might not have led to mass conversions, for example: but less activrs and inactives might have moved into other categories). The fiftern million raw number is not dishonest: those who are on the rolls are on the rolls. That numbrr doesn't tell the whole story, but it is probably a more "true" number than the membership numbers of other churches, given the way we maintain fairly accurate numbers. The 15 million raw number wouldn't be dishonest if it was portrayed accurately when Church Leaders talk about it. The Church doesn't want to acknowledge publicly that only 5 million of the people it has listed as members show up on any given Sunday. It had the status alert report that was mistakenly leaked, removed pronto. Why? Why is it a problem for members to know that the Church has 5 million active members?
carbon dioxide Posted August 26, 2017 Posted August 26, 2017 On 8/18/2017 at 2:51 PM, Johnnie Cake said: True...but the 15 million claim doesn't reflect actual members attending does it... Are all inactives the same. I have been inactive for various reasons in my life but I still considered myself to be LDS during those periods and my views of the Church did not change. Only counting actual members attending regularly to be called "active" does not accurately give the whole picture. Also all churches, religions, whatever have members who are inactive. How many Catholics go to mass every week?
2BizE Posted August 26, 2017 Posted August 26, 2017 On 8/19/2017 at 4:00 PM, thesometimesaint said: True, but children are not considered members before they are 8 years old. Converts still make up the largest share of new Church members. Both my wife and I are long time converts neither of us were born in the Church. She was 12 and I was 20. According to the Handbook, all children in the church including those under 8 years are counted in the total membership of the church.
Marginal Gains Posted August 26, 2017 Posted August 26, 2017 Here the bigger question - why the secrecy over activity rates? What problem would it cause were the number of active Mormons to be read out alongside the membership number at April conference?
carbon dioxide Posted August 26, 2017 Posted August 26, 2017 11 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Here the bigger question - why the secrecy over activity rates? What problem would it cause were the number of active Mormons to be read out alongside the membership number at April conference? I don't see why even giving any numbers is necessary. If the church is true, it is true whether it has 6 members, 5 million, 15 million or a 100 million.
thesometimesaint Posted August 26, 2017 Posted August 26, 2017 12 hours ago, 2BizE said: According to the Handbook, all children in the church including those under 8 years are counted in the total membership of the church. No they are not. They are children of record.
cinepro Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 On 8/18/2017 at 1:44 PM, thesometimesaint said: We never claimed to be the fastest going church, but we have been one of the fastest growing ones. What the heck is wrong with you. Every post of yours is designed to belittle the Church. If you so hate the Church why are you still a member? The Church is perfect, then Christ let us all in. LDS Church Is United States’ Fastest Growing Denomination (2002)
Calm Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) Interesting "LDS Church Is United States’ Fastest Growing Denomination In a study updated every 10 years, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was named the fastest growing denomination in the United States for the years 1990 to 2000. The study also indicated that the fastest growing churches were those considered socially conservative—and that the slowest growing churches were those viewed as socially liberal. With a growth rate of 19.3 percent, the Church led the trend toward conservative religion in the United States. The next fastest growing religions were the Churches of Christ, the Assemblies of God, and the Roman Catholic Church. The Glenmary Research Center, a Catholic research and social service organization, conducted the study through responses received from 149 religious groups. Because the United States census does not seek information about religion, this study is widely considered the most comprehensive assessment available of religious affiliation in the United States. Also according to the study, the Church is the sixth largest denomination in the United States, and Utah tops the nation for “most faithful states,” having the highest percentage of religious adherents (75 percent). Provo, Utah, was singled out as the metro area with the highest percentage (90 percent) of its population claimed by one of the 149 participating religious groups." Edited August 27, 2017 by Calm
Gray Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 17 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: No they are not. They are children of record. But they're apparently counted among membership figures though
Pete Ahlstrom Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 5 hours ago, Gray said: But they're apparently counted among membership figures though Do we know how the church compiles its membership numbers it proclaims to the world? Or is it a secret? I've heard that people that haven't attended for years and years are still counted. How far does this go? Are resigned members still counted?
2BizE Posted August 27, 2017 Posted August 27, 2017 On 8/26/2017 at 1:13 PM, thesometimesaint said: No they are not. They are children of record. Nope. See Handbook 1. 13.6.2. Members of Record For statistical and reporting purposes, the following individuals are members of record. Each of them should have a membership record: 1. Those who have been baptized and confirmed. 2. Those under age 9 who have been blessed but not baptized. 3. Those who are not accountable because of intellectual disabilities, regardless of age. 4. Unbaptized children under 8 when (a) at least one parent is a member of the church, and (b) both parents give permission for a record to be created....
flameburns623 Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) On 8/25/2017 at 10:17 AM, Marginal Gains said: The 15 million raw number wouldn't be dishonest if it was portrayed accurately when Church Leaders talk about it. The Church doesn't want to acknowledge publicly that only 5 million of the people it has listed as members show up on any given Sunday. It had the status alert report that was mistakenly leaked, removed pronto. Why? Why is it a problem for members to know that the Church has 5 million active members? Five million members of the Church are active at any given time, but not necessarily the SAME FIVE MILLION MEMBERS. Another five million members invariably self-identify as members, show up at potlucks or church dances, marry, baptise their children, seek aid and confort from, and are buried as Mormons. They seek succor and hope from LDS teachings. They pray as Mormons, with LDS presuppositions about deity and the Afterlife. And, as some indeterminate number of the aforementioned 'active' attendees go inactive for whatever reason, some indeterminate number of the semi-active become active. Tracking all of this would be difficult -- while you could ennumerate the atrendees at picnics, potlucks, and dances, track the members whose kids are sent to Church every Sunday even though their parents haven't seen the inside of the chapel in decades, while you could annotate that Elder Jones presided over the funeral of Sister Murphy, last shown as having tithed in 1989--that would be a daunting set of figures to juggle. As respects that final five million members: admittedly some number of those are wholly lost to us. They may not remember they were ever members, or they may have been active in their local Happy Baptist Church of Podunk for so long that they aren't even invited to tell their harrowing tales of their escape from The Cult Of MorMans any longer. OTOH, some other indeterminate number of that last five millions WILL return to some measure of semi-active or active participation in the Church, when the right trigger moment comes. Catholics, Adventists, Freemasons, and Nichiren ShoShu Buddhists also have a core number of active members, a periphery of semi-actives, and an outer layer of folks whose associations aren't readily described. And all of them count the nominal membership right alongside the members who show up every time the doors are unlocked. Edited September 14, 2017 by flameburns623
Marginal Gains Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 4 hours ago, flameburns623 said: Five million members of the Church are active at any given time, but not necessarily the SAME FIVE MILLION MEMBERS. Another five million members invariably self-identify as members, show up at potlucks or church dances, marry, baptise their children, seek aid and confort from, and are buried as Mormons. They seek succor and hope from LDS teachings. They pray as Mormons, with LDS presuppositions about deity and the Afterlife. And, as some indeterminate number of the aforementioned 'active' attendees go inactive for whatever reason, some indeterminate number of the semi-active become active. Tracking all of this would be difficult -- while you could ennumerate the atrendees at picnics, potlucks, and dances, track the members whose kids are sent to Church every Sunday even though their parents haven't seen the inside of the chapel in decades, while you could annotate that Elder Jones presided over the funeral of Sister Murphy, last shown as having tithed in 1989--that would be a daunting set of figures to juggle. As respects that final five million members: admittedly some number of those are wholly lost to us. They may not remember they were ever members, or they may have been active in their local Happy Baptist Church of Podunk for so long that they aren't even invited to tell their harrowing tales of their escape from The Cult Of MorMans any longer. OTOH, some other indeterminate number of that last five millions WILL return to some measure of semi-active or active participation in the Church, when the right trigger moment comes. Catholics, Adventists, Freemasons, and Nichiren ShoShu Buddhists also have a core number of active members, a periphery of semi-actives, and an outer layer of folks whose associations aren't readily described. And all of them count the nominal membership right alongside the members who show up every time the doors are unlocked. CFR
why me Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 There is a problem with Christianity in general in the West when it comes to membership. The relentless attack on christianity has certainly done its work. We have seen attacks on christianity from many scholars and the whole idea that if a person is still a christian, that person must have a mental disorder. The onslaught of evolution with Darwin did great harm. Likewise for various humanistic biographies of Jesus. So, the christian metanarrative has been under an onslaught by relativism and hedonism as a personal philosophy. The mormon metanarrative came under a vicious attack when the internet came into use. No surprise that members are having their faith and testimony challenged. However, there is one faith that one cannot be critical of: Islam. Muslim kids are taught not to question their faith and certainly not use their own critical literacy to decontruct their faith. Many secular muslims have been murdered because they dared to challenge the metanarrative. And liberal muslims who have written books about islam have been threatened throughout the west. Christians are open targets and easy targets.
why me Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 On 8/19/2017 at 5:29 PM, Pete Ahlstrom said: I think religion is losing popularity throughout the world. So it's not just the Mormon church. As for activity rates, I think that is a guess because the church won't release the statistics. Not in the muslim world. There is a huge movement of Islamist understandings throughout the muslim world, especially in the west. .
why me Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 On 8/18/2017 at 10:51 PM, stemelbow said: Finland stuck out because of the high percentage but also because I have friends of there. They told me people are leaving in droves in Finland, essentially. So I was surprised to see such a high percentage--of course this is from 2009 and friends have reported to me for more recent years. Not really leaving in droves but some families have left over historical issues. Finland has been behind the times when it comes to church history. It is just hitting the Finnish shore.
Marginal Gains Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 3 hours ago, why me said: There is a problem with Christianity in general in the West when it comes to membership. The relentless attack on christianity has certainly done its work. We have seen attacks on christianity from many scholars and the whole idea that if a person is still a christian, that person must have a mental disorder. The onslaught of evolution with Darwin did great harm. Likewise for various humanistic biographies of Jesus. So, the christian metanarrative has been under an onslaught by relativism and hedonism as a personal philosophy. The mormon metanarrative came under a vicious attack when the internet came into use. No surprise that members are having their faith and testimony challenged. However, there is one faith that one cannot be critical of: Islam. Muslim kids are taught not to question their faith and certainly not use their own critical literacy to decontruct their faith. Many secular muslims have been murdered because they dared to challenge the metanarrative. And liberal muslims who have written books about islam have been threatened throughout the west. Christians are open targets and easy targets. If the scientific discovery of evolution did great harm to Christianity, what does that tell us about Christianity? Interestingly, most of those early anti-Mormon lies discovered on the internet, now reside in official Church essays as historical truths.
Marginal Gains Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 3 hours ago, why me said: Not really leaving in droves but some families have left over historical issues. Finland has been behind the times when it comes to church history. It is just hitting the Finnish shore. What is it about Church history that is so faith destroying to the Finnish members?
why me Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: If the scientific discovery of evolution did great harm to Christianity, what does that tell us about Christianity? Interestingly, most of those early anti-Mormon lies discovered on the internet, now reside in official Church essays as historical truths. Darwin had a tremendous impact on christians for that time. There is no question about it. It was a shock for them. But they recovered. However, the tremendous onslaught of attacks on christianity would have an effect. As would the hedonist philosophy that has guided the west for quite some time. And relativism also. Now about the essays. It is rather interesting that I have books published by the church from the early 80s that have the information that are now in the church essays. It seems that people no longer read books. For example, I have the book Sacred Truths of the D&C. I read the section 132 commentary in the book and low and behold, all is in there. Emma's problem with polygamy, Hyrum encouraging Joseph to write a revelation for Emma, how polygamy revelation was known in 1831 etc. All claimed by critics that such info was hidden by the church. But not so. It is in the book that I just mentioned along with other historical facts. Likewise, Hyrum's polygamy was in his biography published by the church in 2003. But who read that book. https://deseretbook.com/p/sacred-truths-doctrine-covenants-vol-1-leaun-g-otten-8150?variant_id=101382-ebook https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Truths-Doctrine-Covenants-Vol/dp/B000M7Z3H6 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2061601.Hyrum_Smith Edited September 14, 2017 by why me
why me Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: What is it about Church history that is so faith destroying to the Finnish members? Some were rather ignorant. No knowledge that JS was a polygamist. No knowledge of other issues hammered home by the critics. Same old same old.
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