Thoughts on this, end of white evangelical America.

[poptart]

Wanted to see what peoples thoughts on this are. 

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/08/the_death_of_evangelicalism.html

 

[Calm]

"the evangelical world has been committing slow suicide for a long time.  Forty years ago, my own evangelical seminary had already opened its doors to the forces that would one day seriously undermine its own basic beliefs, and today the doors of evangelical institutions are open even wider to the same corrupting influences."

He seems to be saying 'true evangelicism can only mean one thing and I get to define that'.

[Five Solas]

I largely agree with it.  "An emphasis on Bible exposition" feels essential to me, and those who have jettisoned that in favor of other things--the parable of The Wise and Foolish Builders (Matthew 7:24-27) appears to fit the situation...

I'd be interested if any LDS see implication/application for their own faith, as the LDS Church membership growth stalls (e.g., 72% attrition by age 20, courtesy of MormonLeaks) and as wards consolidate and close, especially in urban areas (e.g., Seattle). 

Or will this just be an opportunity for a little Schadenfreude?

;0)

--Erik

PS.  Why did you title this thread "...White Evangelical America"?  (I'm just now realizing you did that.)  Unless I completely missed it, the author makes no mention of racial identity.  Really curious what your purpose was with that little addition, poptart. 

_________________________________

I would offer up a brick
To the back of your head, boy
If I were Cain

--16 Horsepower "Black Soul Choir"

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Five Solas
added the PS

[boblloyd91]

9 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

I largely agree with it.  "An emphasis on Bible exposition" feels essential to me, and those who have jettisoned that in favor of other things--the parable of The Wise and Foolish Builders (Matthew 7:24-27) appears to fit the situation...

I'd be interested if any LDS see implication/application for their own faith, as the LDS Church membership growth stalls (e.g., 72% attrition by age 20, courtesy of MormonLeaks) and as wards consolidate and close, especially in urban areas (e.g., Seattle). 

Or will this just be an opportunity for a little Schadenfreude?

;0)

--Erik

_________________________________

I would offer up a brick
To the back of your head, boy
If I were Cain

--16 Horsepower "Black Soul Choir"

 

Though Schadenfreude is delicious, I fully believe the same forces that undermine Evangelicals will also affect LDS as we share mostly identical moral positions. Theological differences aside, LDS are just as, if not more Conservative at least when looking at voting patterns. Time will tell I guess.

[Five Solas]

2 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

Though Schadenfreude is delicious, I fully believe the same forces that undermine Evangelicals will also affect LDS as we share mostly identical moral positions. Theological differences aside, LDS are just as, if not more Conservative at least when looking at voting patterns. Time will tell I guess.

I'm not sure you understood the article, boblloyd91.  The author tells us Evangelicals have drifted away from Bible exposition and embraced other things.  That's the root of the problem from his perspective (and I think he has a point). 

But LDS don't have a tradition of Bible exposition.  For contemporary LDS, the Bible is always held at arm's length--"...as far as it has been translated correctly."  Morality overlap between LDS and Christian Evangelicals shares a superficial motivation/basis at best.  So "voting patterns" aside -- do you think there's any lesson or application for LDS in what Davidson writes? 

Based on your short response, I'm guessing you'll say, "Not so much."  And if I'm right about that, then enjoy your Schadenfreude.

;0)

--Erik

[boblloyd91]

6 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I'm not sure you understood the article, boblloyd91.  The author tells us Evangelicals have drifted away from Bible exposition and embraced other things.  That's the root of the problem from his perspective (and I think he has a point). 

But LDS don't have a tradition of Bible exposition.  For contemporary LDS, the Bible is always held at arm's length--"...as far as it has been translated correctly."  Morality overlap between LDS and Christian Evangelicals shares a superficial motivation/basis at best.  So "voting patterns" aside -- do you think there's any lesson or application for LDS in what Davidson writes? 

Based on your short response, I'm guessing you'll say, "Not so much."  And if I'm right about that, then enjoy your Schadenfreude.

;0)

--Erik

I understood it just fine, however I was focusing on other aspects of the article that stuck out to me, that being changing attitudes towards certain moral viewpoints. That's where I feel LDS and Evangelicals share similar challenges...

[Gray]

The Evangelicals getting into bed with Nero is indicative that many of them have lost their way.

[stemelbow]

9 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I largely agree with it.  "An emphasis on Bible exposition" feels essential to me, and those who have jettisoned that in favor of other things--the parable of The Wise and Foolish Builders (Matthew 7:24-27) appears to fit the situation...

I'd be interested if any LDS see implication/application for their own faith, as the LDS Church membership growth stalls (e.g., 72% attrition by age 20, courtesy of MormonLeaks) and as wards consolidate and close, especially in urban areas (e.g., Seattle). 

I'd say the LDS Church has been led in many ways by the evangelical movement.  Whatever evangelicalism does, it feels like, LDS do later on.  I think the questions raised here is front and center at issue within both churches or movements or whatever they are.  I"d completely disagree with nearly every conclusion drawn.  "An emphasis on Bible exposition" which is essential to you and the author of this piece, feels to me to be missing the point of the problems, even if the questions asked seem spot on.  The Bible is filled with tradition, myth, and in some cases nonsense.  We should be creating our own religious world even while treating the Bible as scripture, as imperfect as it is.  I think the LDS Church is trying to buckle down on tradition much like the author of this piece.  But I'd say that's the wrong approach.  The LDS Church is different in a couple of substantial ways here, though.  The LDS Church's authority is central.  While it does happen, it's harder to get influences into the community and Church from the outside if it doesn't go through the leadership.  The LDS Church is much smaller and thus easier to control.  So, in some ways, I'd say the LDS Church is more tradition based, falling away from Charisma and revelation than evangelicalism, even if the LDS Church claims the opposite.  The LDS Church isn't adjusting well to progress.  It isn't seeking evolving as much as it is seeking to fight evolving under the mask of fighting corruption. 

I don't know how either will survive this.  Even though it's so tied to conservative traditionalism, I'd wager evangelicalism will be more easily swayed to changed than the LDS Church.  In this again, evangelicalism will be leading the way for the LDS Church. 

My .02 cents.

9 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Or will this just be an opportunity for a little Schadenfreude?

;0)

--Erik

PS.  Why did you title this thread "...White Evangelical America"?  (I'm just now realizing you did that.)  Unless I completely missed it, the author makes no mention of racial identity.  Really curious what your purpose was with that little addition, poptart. 

_________________________________

I would offer up a brick
To the back of your head, boy
If I were Cain

--16 Horsepower "Black Soul Choir"

 

 

[RevTestament]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'd say the LDS Church has been led in many ways by the evangelical movement.  Whatever evangelicalism does, it feels like, LDS do later on. 

I'd like to know what you are thinking of when you say this.

Quote

 The LDS Church isn't adjusting well to progress.  It isn't seeking evolving as much as it is seeking to fight evolving under the mask of fighting corruption. 

My .02 cents.

Evangelicalism's adjustment to "progress" is to buy into the things of the world, so in this sense I am glad the LDS Church is not adjusting. I don't care if we are the last bastion against perversions in the country - some will want or need that when the rest of the world is mired in wickedness and violence.

My 3 cents....

[stemelbow]

25 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I'd like to know what you are thinking of when you say this.

Often when I hear sermons from evangelicals of twenty years ago, I hear the same messages from leaders of the LDS Church today.  The LDS Church often just follows the western culture in which it's headquartered.  Seeing it that way, you realize the LDS Church is much directed by the conservative Christian American values, because as it turns out, the conservative Christian American values are directed by the evangelical movement by and large. 

25 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Evangelicalism's adjustment to "progress" is to buy into the things of the world, so in this sense I am glad the LDS Church is not adjusting. I don't care if we are the last bastion against perversions in the country - some will want or need that when the rest of the world is mired in wickedness and violence.

My 3 cents....

Everything we have and know are things of the world.  We just pretend they aren't for poetic effect. 

"she's wearing a two piece bikines.  That there is bowing to the things of this world."

"They said swear words...that's getting influenced by the things of this world."

Who drives this stuff?  not LDS.  We just follow that which is established by the conservative Ev movement.  If Evangelicalism is buying into the things of this world, so is the LDS Church.  Sadly both have created in some measure windmills on this front, in which to do battle against. 

[boblloyd91]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'd say the LDS Church has been led in many ways by the evangelical movement.  Whatever evangelicalism does, it feels like, LDS do later on.  I think the questions raised here is front and center at issue within both churches or movements or whatever they are.  I"d completely disagree with nearly every conclusion drawn.  "An emphasis on Bible exposition" which is essential to you and the author of this piece, feels to me to be missing the point of the problems, even if the questions asked seem spot on.  The Bible is filled with tradition, myth, and in some cases nonsense.  We should be creating our own religious world even while treating the Bible as scripture, as imperfect as it is.  I think the LDS Church is trying to buckle down on tradition much like the author of this piece.  But I'd say that's the wrong approach.  The LDS Church is different in a couple of substantial ways here, though.  The LDS Church's authority is central.  While it does happen, it's harder to get influences into the community and Church from the outside if it doesn't go through the leadership.  The LDS Church is much smaller and thus easier to control.  So, in some ways, I'd say the LDS Church is more tradition based, falling away from Charisma and revelation than evangelicalism, even if the LDS Church claims the opposite.  The LDS Church isn't adjusting well to progress.  It isn't seeking evolving as much as it is seeking to fight evolving under the mask of fighting corruption. 

I don't know how either will survive this.  Even though it's so tied to conservative traditionalism, I'd wager evangelicalism will be more easily swayed to changed than the LDS Church.  In this again, evangelicalism will be leading the way for the LDS Church. 

My .02 cents.

 

To a point I agree with you, but I don't know if it's a direct causation. I think geography plays a role too, in that because Evangelicals are much bigger and more spread out and are more quickly exposed to various faith challenges and so forth, whereas because we are smaller and more focused in the less populated American West certain issues aren't as commonly dealt with (I do understand that communication technology has changed this drastically over the last few decades though). I think it's similar to Europe and the U.S. it seems we deal with things about twenty or thirty years after Europe seems to in regards to demographic and sociological trends. So we definitely don't take marching orders from Evangelicals, but we do end up having to face the same things due to similar moral and cultural positions

Edited July 18, 2017 by boblloyd91

[strappinglad]

Which is the most conservative religion? Evangelicals, LDS or Muslims?

[poptart]

16 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I largely agree with it.  "An emphasis on Bible exposition" feels essential to me, and those who have jettisoned that in favor of other things--the parable of The Wise and Foolish Builders (Matthew 7:24-27) appears to fit the situation...

I'd be interested if any LDS see implication/application for their own faith, as the LDS Church membership growth stalls (e.g., 72% attrition by age 20, courtesy of MormonLeaks) and as wards consolidate and close, especially in urban areas (e.g., Seattle). 

Or will this just be an opportunity for a little Schadenfreude?

;0)

--Erik

PS.  Why did you title this thread "...White Evangelical America"?  (I'm just now realizing you did that.)  Unless I completely missed it, the author makes no mention of racial identity.  Really curious what your purpose was with that little addition, poptart. 

_________________________________

I would offer up a brick
To the back of your head, boy
If I were Cain

--16 Horsepower "Black Soul Choir"

 

Ops, I posted the wrong link.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/08/15/white-christian-america-is-dying/?utm_term=.14a1131bea17

Thinking of picking this book up actually, looks good.  I should have been more precise, WASP christian america (White Anglo Saxon Protestant).  Lets face it, for decades they called the shots, they even gave freemasonry a hard time.  I think they did a lot more harm then good, so many people especially men are weary of religion in the states now because of their actions, myself included.  When a powerhouse starts entering their death throws, its worthwhile to pay attention.  For one, look how they affected everyone else, even a lot of Catholic and mainline protestant churches modified their worship away from tradition to something along the evangelical line of feel good hypocracy (....vomits...)  It's hard for me to feel sorry for them, they chose to sell themselves out to maintain the status quo and now they've losing big time.  They sold out their families, traditions, values and souls for power and money and now are freaking out over it.  I think its hilarious. 

Not the biggest Pope Francis fan nor am I really Christian, but at this rate Rome will win.  Sad, protestants here were winning the Christianity game and in the end their greed and lust for power shot them in the foot.

I personally don't think the LDS have much to worry about, they tend to be upper class and while their kids may be pricks, they'll shut up when they're trying to make a living and need those good wholesome references and i've yet to see a people as forgiving nowadays as the LDS stateside.  Also, like putting up with the uncle you would rather shoot/shove down the stairs than look at when it comes time for the inheritence it's amazing how pious people will get.  I've known more than a few Catholics even who said the hell with the church when they could not get their divorce and went either protestant or athiest, not like that matters, apparently even the divorced can receive the Eucharist now.  Seems like the LDS are the only ones left with any accountability now, in the states anyways.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by poptart

[clarkgoble]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'd say the LDS Church has been led in many ways by the evangelical movement.  Whatever evangelicalism does, it feels like, LDS do later on.  I think the questions raised here is front and center at issue within both churches or movements or whatever they are.

I'm not sure that's true. Indeed I think one of the strengths of the evangelical movement has been it's fairly diverse nature and a willingness to innovate - particularly in how meetings and worship services are held. They've always been much more innovative in embracing aspects of popular music and integrating it repurposed in their worship services for instance. 

There are criticisms to make though. The lack of focus on doctrinal or Biblical knowledge has long been a point of critique by many pastors. To the point that many heresies such as the prosperity gospel or cheap grace end up getting strong footholds in some congregations.  But I think we could do well to look less at their failures and more from their successes to learn from them. Particularly in missionary success in Asian countries where we've really not done remotely as well.

[Five Solas]

8 hours ago, poptart said:

Ops, I posted the wrong link.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/08/15/white-christian-america-is-dying/?utm_term=.14a1131bea17

Thinking of picking this book up actually, looks good.  I should have been more precise, WASP christian america (White Anglo Saxon Protestant).  Lets face it, for decades they called the shots, they even gave freemasonry a hard time.  I think they did a lot more harm then good, so many people especially men are weary of religion in the states now because of their actions, myself included.  When a powerhouse starts entering their death throws, its worthwhile to pay attention.  For one, look how they affected everyone else, even a lot of Catholic and mainline protestant churches modified their worship away from tradition to something along the evangelical line of feel good hypocracy (....vomits...)  It's hard for me to feel sorry for them, they chose to sell themselves out to maintain the status quo and now they've losing big time.  They sold out their families, traditions, values and souls for power and money and now are freaking out over it.  I think its hilarious. 

Not the biggest Pope Francis fan nor am I really Christian, but at this rate Rome will win.  Sad, protestants here were winning the Christianity game and in the end their greed and lust for power shot them in the foot.

I personally don't think the LDS have much to worry about, they tend to be upper class and while their kids may be pricks, they'll shut up when they're trying to make a living and need those good wholesome references and i've yet to see a people as forgiving nowadays as the LDS stateside.  Also, like putting up with the uncle you would rather shoot/shove down the stairs than look at when it comes time for the inheritence it's amazing how pious people will get.  I've known more than a few Catholics even who said the hell with the church when they could not get their divorce and went either protestant or athiest, not like that matters, apparently even the divorced can receive the Eucharist now.  Seems like the LDS are the only ones left with any accountability now, in the states anyways.

 

 

Let me get this straight, the whole thread up to now has been based on a link you never intended?  And then you follow this revelation up with three paragraphs of incoherence!  And we're supposed to chalk this up to what?  To day-drinking on your part, poptart?

--Erik

________________________________________

See your iPhone camera flashin'
Please step back, it's my style you're crampin'
"You here for long?" Oh no, I'm just passin'
"Do you wanna drink?" No, thanks for askin'

--Jax Jones, 2016

[poptart]

On 7/18/2017 at 11:15 PM, Five Solas said:

Let me get this straight, the whole thread up to now has been based on a link you never intended?  And then you follow this revelation up with three paragraphs of incoherence!  And we're supposed to chalk this up to what?  To day-drinking on your part, poptart?

--Erik

________________________________________

See your iPhone camera flashin'
Please step back, it's my style you're crampin'
"You here for long?" Oh no, I'm just passin'
"Do you wanna drink?" No, thanks for askin'

--Jax Jones, 2016

Lel no, that was just an innocent mistake on my part, had more than one link open.  IRL I like to study up on religiosity, it's impact and rise/decline in society.  Lets face it, at one time it was the power of the land socially and politically.  At least I caught it and fixed it, to be fair both links more or less say the same thing, the latter included "white".

 

Also not that much of a drinker, i like a little wine but I tend to avoid heavy drinking, had a very violent alcoholic father who's on the way out and I get bad hangovers.  Give me a bong on the other hand?  Now we're talking!  Also if i'm blazed this is not exactly the place i'd hang around, i'd either be walking around the woods or watching cartoons, not having a religious discussion.