Recommended Books on Church History from Elder Jensen (Former Church Historian)

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I agree that members ought to read more, but I fault the correlation committee model for this lack of information more than I fault members.  The culture teaches people to avoid external sources of information, and this kind of stuff rarely comes up in Sunday School.

 

The Church puts pretty much all of its curricular and periodical material online these days and offers access to it free of charge.

Can you cite anything that would lend credence to the notion that "the culture teaches people to avoid external sources of information"?

[JLHPROF]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Church puts pretty much all of its curricular and periodical material online these days and offers access to it free of charge.

Can you cite anything that would lend credence to the notion that "the culture teaches people to avoid external sources of information"?

 - What does your first statement have to do with your second?

Church materials (online or not) are internal sources.
Non-Church materials are external sources.

And I think you could very easily find talks down through the years where a GA has advised members to stick to Church publications.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 - What does your first statement have to do with your second?

Church materials (online or not) are internal sources.
Non-Church materials are external sources.
 

The first statement is by way of showing that the wherewithal is there to support the claim if it is indeed supportable.

If the Church culture "teaches people to avoid external sources of information," such a thing ought to be demonstrable with the vast and extensive published material the Church makes available online.

Quote

And I think you could very easily find talks down through the years where a GA has advised members to stick to Church publications.

Maybe in preparing and presenting lessons under the auspices of the Church, but that's not the same thing as telling people, on their own, "to avoid external sources of information." Nothing authoritative that I have ever encountered from the Church tells me that I should "avoid external sources of information."

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And I think you could very easily find talks down through the years where a GA has advised members to stick to Church publications.

If you mean for other than lessons, please share some easily found talks advising this please.

[hope_for_things]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you have any research  demonstrating that nonmembers research or study more than Mormons do? Or that Mormons used to research or study more before correlation?

I think there is some research that Armand Mauss did in Angel and the Beehive that talks to this somewhat if I remember correctly.  Pre-correlation attitudes about particular subjects.  I would be interested in learning more about it, its not something I've studied specifically though, so if anyone has suggestions on essays or books that cover this topic more in depth that would be of interest, please comment.  

There are a few books about this time period that I've found interesting, but as far as statistical research, I'm not as clear on it.  Prince's biography on McKay has some interesting discussion as well as the Arrington biography.  The new Patrick Mason and John Turner book I've heard good things about, but haven't read yet and it covers this time period of transition from pre correlation to post correlation.  

https://www.amazon.com/Out-Obscurity-Mormonism-since-1945/dp/0199358222/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1496414968&sr=1-1-fkmr2&keywords=patrick+mason+planted

 

 

[hope_for_things]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Church puts pretty much all of its curricular and periodical material online these days and offers access to it free of charge.

Can you cite anything that would lend credence to the notion that "the culture teaches people to avoid external sources of information"?

My entire life experience being raised in Mormonism, interacting with family and friends, and my experiences transitioning from orthodox believer to something post orthodox, all reinforce this observation that certain information out there is dangerous, scary, evil, anti, untrue, etc. and should be avoided.  There are so many evidences of this, its literally everywhere in Mormonism.  Members are taught and this is reinforced through the rhetoric of conference talks and at church on Sunday so much that its just a part of the zietgiest.  There are unsafe sources of information, fake news (to reference a current cultural topic) about which Mormons are frequently warned that they should avoid.  

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I think there is some research that Armand Mauss did in Angel and the Beehive that talks to this somewhat if I remember correctly.  Pre-correlation attitudes about particular subjects.  I would be interested in learning more about it, its not something I've studied specifically though, so if anyone has suggestions on essays or books that cover this topic more in depth that would be of interest, please comment.  

The closest I've seen would be religious knowledge surveys. Those are always dangerous since of course questions don't necessarily work for everyone. But despite that caveat, since what Mormons study is different from general Christians, Mormons and Jews did among the best.

Admittedly these are pretty basic questions - which gets at my earlier comment that I think people who are reasonably well read just don't appreciate the levels of ignorance out there. Something else to keep in mind is that I suspect most people assume Mormons are more educated than average. But I think that's a kind of bias due to the people doing most of the callings tending to be the high Mormon achievers. As a group Mormons are astoundingly average unlike some other groups like Jews or Anglicans. Part of that is apparently bias due to the ¼ of Mormons who are converts. (The Pew poll has it at 26%)

Quote

The 26% of Mormons who are converts to the faith differ markedly from lifelong Mormons in several ways. First, converts tend to be older than lifelong Mormons. Nearly half of converts (48%) are over age 50, compared with about three-in-ten lifelong members (29%). Converts also tend to be less educated than nonconverts (16% did not graduate from high school, compared with just 6% of lifelong members) and they earn decidedly lower incomes (40% make less than $30,000 a year, compared with 21% among nonconverts).

That study is starting to be long in tooth (8 years old) but I doubt that conclusion has changed much.

When you look at IQ data Mormons are particularly average.

None of this gets at religious study time of course. The most recent Pew poll did find that Mormons are the highest group to read scripture regularly (77%) and pray daily (85%). Again though this perhaps points towards most people not doing those things.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

My entire life experience being raised in Mormonism, interacting with family and friends, and my experiences transitioning from orthodox believer to something post orthodox, all reinforce this observation that certain information out there is dangerous, scary, evil, anti, untrue, etc. and should be avoided.  There are so many evidences of this, its literally everywhere in Mormonism.  Members are taught and this is reinforced through the rhetoric of conference talks and at church on Sunday so much that its just a part of the zietgiest.  There are unsafe sources of information, fake news (to reference a current cultural topic) about which Mormons are frequently warned that they should avoid.  

I think there is an element of that although I tend to think it's pretty minor. Certainly they warn of certain media but that is usually because of drug use, promoting promiscuity or related fears rather than scholarship. I suspect it also varies by group. But I'd suspect that if you come into Sacrament reading the Marquis de Sade openly people are going to look askance at you.

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Something else to keep in mind is that I suspect most people assume Mormons are more educated than average. But I think that's a kind of bias due to the people doing most of the callings tending to be the high Mormon achievers. As a group Mormons are astoundingly average unlike some other groups like Jews or Anglicans. Part of that is apparently bias due to the ¼ of Mormons who are converts. (The Pew poll has it at 26%)

Thanks for pointing this out, I thought Mormons were more educated than average, I wonder where I got that from.  I appreciate the information that challenges my earlier assumption.  I also found this chart from a 2014 study linked to here:  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/

[hope_for_things]

31 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think there is an element of that although I tend to think it's pretty minor. Certainly they warn of certain media but that is usually because of drug use, promoting promiscuity or related fears rather than scholarship. I suspect it also varies by group. But I'd suspect that if you come into Sacrament reading the Marquis de Sade openly people are going to look askance at you.

I believe I hear this attitude of avoiding unfaithful information every week in church, but perhaps this is just my bias speaking.  With that in mind, I'm challenging myself this Sunday with the goal making a special note of listening for this kind of attitude in the three hr block.  I challenge others to do the same.  I'll return and report next week on what I observe just from this Sunday.  

[clarkgoble]

21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for pointing this out, I thought Mormons were more educated than average, I wonder where I got that from.  I appreciate the information that challenges my earlier assumption.

I had the same assumption until that Razib post I linked to. As I suggested I think the issue is the Mormons we tend to notice the most are the more productive. Those people tend to be doing better in terms of careers, tend to be better educated, and tend to know more about Church. Yet they aren't the majority of the Church. The very nature of the Church tends to bring out a wide group of people without the sort of selection that happens in other religions. So, for instance, among mainline Protestants you'll get the upper earners tending to be Episcopalian due to the social groups they run with. That's why those numbers are so much higher than say Baptists.

As I said conversion tends to have a big effect as well since typically it's the more humble who are willing to listen. Since I tend to think IQ and related things can have a significant component open to change, we'd then expect second and third generation to improve in such qualities. 

The big question is how the rise of the Nones affects all this. The stereotype by many is that it's the well educated who tend to leave religion. While there's certainly an element of that - especially for those becoming atheist - by and large I think the Nones are those already loosely tied to religion who just no longer feel the need to identify anymore. Among Mormons, unlike most Christians, there's that odd statistics of educated being more not less religious. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by clarkgoble

[JLHPROF]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe in preparing and presenting lessons under the auspices of the Church, but that's not the same thing as telling people, on their own, "to avoid external sources of information." Nothing authoritative that I have ever encountered from the Church tells me that I should "avoid external sources of information."

 

16 hours ago, Calm said:

If you mean for other than lessons, please share some easily found talks advising this please.

Fair enough.  In stating that "a GA has advised members to stick to Church publications"  I was specifically referring to the quotes relating to preparing lessons and usage of the manuals.
Sadly enough, those manuals are the only gospel materials many members actually read.

But yes, there are also quotes encouraging members to read the best scholarship on gospel issues.  I wonder why members don't do that in general (some do of course).
Perhaps the manuals should contain some of the "best scholarship".

And while it is totally hearsay and anecdotal, the number of members (and ex-members) claiming their local authorities advised them to avoid non-Church publications is astronomical.  I am sure many such stories are questionable, but where there is smoke, there is fire.  Perhaps some of the local authorities need to listen to the GA's advising members to seek out the best scholarship.

[Calm]

I believe the significant data is that higher education is tied with higher level of commitment in the Church.

Also a 2009 Pew research has this to say for US Mormons.

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us/#4

"Mormons are significantly more likely than the population overall to have some college education. Six-in-ten Mormons (61%) have at least some college education, compared with half of the overall population. However, the proportion of Mormons who graduate from college (18%) or receive postgraduate education (10%) is similar to the population as a whole (16% and 11%, respectively"

I wonder how different that would be if you separated it into male and females.

The Pathway program may be significant enough in the long run to pull up our numbers.

I think that and the PEF are evidence there is a strong commitment to education itself among Church leadership and the BYU program is not just for ensuring faithful training/indoctrination (I think we would be having a number of community level colleges spread out so the majority of our community could attend if this was our purpose) or expanding marriage possibilities inside the faith.

-----

While Utah is not equivalent to the Church, it can show potential attributes and in education, it shows significant differences between women and men:

http://www.utahwomenandeducation.org/resources/by-institution/advocacy/key-facts.html

• Quote

   

  • A report from the Utah Department of Workforce Services stated, “While prior to 1990, Utah women showed a higher rate of college graduation than U.S. women, by 2000, Utah women had lost their ‘bachelor’s degree or higher’ educational edge. Utah shows by far the largest gap in the nation between male and female college-graduation rates.”
  • The Utah Foundation reports that, although the number of women in Utah with a bachelor’s degree or higher has slightly increased since 2000, percentages are not keeping pace with the nation. This is particularly troubling since Utah men earn bachelor’s degrees or higher at a rate that exceeds the national average.
  • Pamela Perlich, Senior Research Economist at the University of Utah’s Bureau of Economic and Business Research stated, “Utah women are slightly less likely to have college degrees than are women in the rest of the nation. This lower overall rate is the result of significantly lower educational attainment of Utah’s younger women…So, while Utah young women start college studies at above average rates, they are less likely to complete their degrees.”
  • National statistics show that, among those who attend college, more women (57 percent) enroll than men (43 percent). However, in Utah approximately 49 percent of higher education students are women, with the lowest percentages enrolled at the University of Utah (44 percent) and Utah Valley University (43 percent). Compared to all other states, Utah is last in terms of the percentage of female students enrolled in postsecondary institutions (Women and Higher Education in Utah: A Glimpse at the Past and Present).
  • Utah women graduate from business and STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math) programs substantially below their national peers (Women and Higher Education in Utah: A Glimpse at the Past and Present).
  • The certificate or degree programs that have the highest percentages of Utah women include certificate trade programs (e.g., cosmetology, massage, and culinary arts) that are focused on short-term postsecondary training rather than four-year degree programs (Women and Higher Education in Utah: A Glimpse at the Past and Present)."

   

   

 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I believe I hear this attitude of avoiding unfaithful information every week in church, but perhaps this is just my bias speaking.  With that in mind, I'm challenging myself this Sunday with the goal making a special note of listening for this kind of attitude in the three hr block.  I challenge others to do the same.  I'll return and report next week on what I observe just from this Sunday.  

Everyone should try to include some phrasing written down, otherwise it is pretty much just everyone's interpretation, which may or may not be accurate.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And while it is totally hearsay and anecdotal, the number of members (and ex-members) claiming their local authorities advised them to avoid non-Church publications is astronomical.  I am sure many such stories are questionable, but where there is smoke, there is fire.  Perhaps some of the local authorities need to listen to the GA's advising members to seek out the best scholarship.

Local authorities are the lay membership, so I would assume those who believe they have been instructed to avoid nonChurch publications are the same one instructing others.  One of the biggest problems with our leadership choice (lack of control over teaching traditions and one big reason for coorelation), but the benefits are still higher than the costs, imo.

While I haven't been in in a Deseretbook store lately, prior to 10 years ago (the change is imo the result of online shopping), anyone who thought one should avoid nonChurch publications likely had panic attacks when they walked through these bookstores.

[Tacenda]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18W3AgWXw6zMUllRW85bXc0RWc/view

This is a letter to someone's wife. I thought of Bill Reels' Mormon Primer pdf also. Apparently the letter covers more in depth and is better than the CES Letter. I wonder if Fair Mormon has looked at it and what the criticism of it would be. This culminates many history book information in one swoop. I have trouble with reading lengthy manuscripts. I guess that's why I was a great reader of church publications verses the swell of books out there on LDS history etc. I envy those of you that can read like that! My eyesight is dwindling also and the eyestrain is bad. 

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Local authorities are the lay membership, so I would assume those who believe they have been instructed to avoid nonChurch publications are the same one instructing others.  One of the biggest problems with our leadership choice (lack of control over teaching traditions and one big reason for coorelation), but the benefits are still higher than the costs, imo.

While I haven't been in in a Deseretbook store lately, prior to 10 years ago (the change is imo the result of online shopping), anyone who thought one should avoid nonChurch publications likely had panic attacks when they walked through these bookstores.

I have relatives who have followed this misplaced admonition.  Never read much of anything other than the scriptures and manuals.
I even suggested watching God's Army (a great faithbuilding movie about missionaries, before the director left the Church).  They wouldn't watch it because the Church didn't produce it.

All I am saying is that comes from some tradition in the Church, and traditions don't form in a vacuum.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I have relatives who have followed this misplaced admonition.  Never read much of anything other than the scriptures and manuals.
I even suggested watching God's Army (a great faithbuilding movie about missionaries, before the director left the Church).  They wouldn't watch it because the Church didn't produce it.

All I am saying is that comes from some tradition in the Church, and traditions don't form in a vacuum.

Actually vacuums are where a lot of traditions start imo.  We like to fill in gaps.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Local authorities are the lay membership, so I would assume those who believe they have been instructed to avoid nonChurch publications are the same one instructing others.  One of the biggest problems with our leadership choice (lack of control over teaching traditions and one big reason for coorelation), but the benefits are still higher than the costs, imo.

While I haven't been in in a Deseretbook store lately, prior to 10 years ago (the change is imo the result of online shopping), anyone who thought one should avoid nonChurch publications likely had panic attacks when they walked through these bookstores.

Last year I tried to find Joseph Smith's Polygamy in my local Deseret Book. It was only available online. I just chatted with a rep from DB to see if this has changed. The only store in my area has only 2 copies of vol. 1 and vol. 2 on the shelf. The other stores in my area don't have the books on their shelves. 

Is this normal? I would think this book would be there. Here I am still, second guessing on the church hiding the history. 

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Last year I tried to find Joseph Smith's Polygamy in my local Deseret Book. It was only available online. I just chatted with a rep from DB to see if this has changed. The only store in my area has only 2 copies of vol. 1 and vol. 2 on the shelf. The other stores in my area don't have the books on their shelves.

Is this normal? I would think this book would be there. Here I am still, second guessing on the church hiding the history.

That's why I use Benchmark Books or Confetti Books for the most "scholarly works".
Des Book doesn't carry much of this kind of thing.
I'm actually very surprised ANY DB store has Hales books on polygamy.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

And while it is totally hearsay and anecdotal, the number of members (and ex-members) claiming their local authorities advised them to avoid non-Church publications is astronomical.  I am sure many such stories are questionable, but where there is smoke, there is fire.  Perhaps some of the local authorities need to listen to the GA's advising members to seek out the best scholarship.

Church leaders have been discouraging unapproved sources for years though.  Whether that's by warning people to stay away from symposia (including restrictions on church employees for attendance) or not so subtitle talks about the truth not being useful, or controlling the message by endorsing some scholarship officially and discouraging others including punishing the scholars (Mormon Enigma).  

Thats what I meant by its part of the culture.  I just see very few statements to seek out the best scholarship, the work on more detailed essays on church history and then the reluctance to mainstream that work and promote it via official channels, which as of late has been getting better, but it there is still a fear of the material in those essays and wrestling with the content theologically.  Even going back to Ballard's talk about "gone are the days", he seems to regret that those days are gone, as if he wishes those days when the church controlled the message were still around.  

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by hope_for_things

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Everyone should try to include some phrasing written down, otherwise it is pretty much just everyone's interpretation, which may or may not be accurate.

Accurate or not, a person's interpretation is valid for how they choose to live their life, and sometimes this requires extra work to change perceptions and assumptions in very explicit terms, otherwise its human nature to interpret things in a manner that is consistent with our current world view.  

So as far as unapproved external material, it might be necessary for GAs to talk about some of the scholarship that they've been researching so as to let people know that its safe to pick up a book or two that aren't on the shelves of Deseret Book.  Otherwise the old tradition of avoiding these things will continue to perpetuate unnecessarily.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

While Utah is not equivalent to the Church, it can show potential attributes and in education, it shows significant differences between women and men:

http://www.utahwomenandeducation.org/resources/by-institution/advocacy/key-facts.html

Thanks for sharing these concerning numbers about women in Utah, I think the culture of early marriage and women staying in the home have to be significant contributing factors.  I would love to see new emphasis emerging for women in Mormon culture.  

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Last year I tried to find Joseph Smith's Polygamy in my local Deseret Book. It was only available online. I just chatted with a rep from DB to see if this has changed. The only store in my area has only 2 copies of vol. 1 and vol. 2 on the shelf. The other stores in my area don't have the books on their shelves. 

Is this normal? I would think this book would be there. Here I am still, second guessing on the church hiding the history. 

DB Stores are set up to primarily imo make money these days, not to also ensure everyone has an opportunity to read what is out there like they were more so in the past.  This is not meant as the Church not wanting people to read, but is just a reflection of how people use the brick and board stores these days.  There is tons more available overall, just online.  

The Church also had the High Priests run a ward or stake bookstore and sometimes library for areas that didn't have Deseretbooks in the past, again something no longer really needed or used.  Ward libraries of just Church Distribution stuff is hardly used these days, except maybe the TVs.  Everything is online or included in the manual.

 Stores can't survive if the books just sit on the shelf.  That is why you see fewer books and more knick knacks, gift items, etc in DB stores these days as these have a much higher profit margin and are less likely to be bought online (books can be trusted to be the same as advertised, decorative objects not so much).  In m old store (worked there, not owned), it was the artwork at holiday time that made the store the most profitable, otherwise it was the dozen or so blockbusters of inspirational or historical fiction that made money.  The attitude of my manager was the rest was for show or so it seemed to me.  Books that are not selling don't get reordered and after 6 months or a year get put on the clearance shelf.  Sometimes books get sent back to publishers if there was a significant miscalculation, but that is costly for all involved and frowned upon, so in my experience, the more scholarly books are ordered in batches of three at most to begin with...sometimes only one (I had to promise to buy a FARMS Book of Abraham series book if it didn't seem in three months to get one ordered for my nonDeseretbook Church bookstore up in Canada while we had ten of the latest Harry Potter novel, dozens of the latest trendy historical novel and hundreds of the latest Christmas book from Pres. Hinckley or a favorite GA).   Scholarly books may be replaced as sold in the next year or two, but unless consistent sellers they disappear in a few years at most.  Inspirational books took a little longer though there were some that were enduring standards.  In my bookstore, the scholarly stuff might have been lucky to take up 1/100th of the space and probably accounted for less than 1/1000th of the sales, if that.  More likely that section was redlining for the effort and space it involved.  Now that everything is online for cheaper, the scholarly stuff is less likely on the shelves of all kinds of bookstores as those are books people ordered because of recommendations or knowledge of the authors and less likely to need to hold in hands before purchasing.  There is just too much competition out there for stores to be generous with space for books that educate, but don't sell much.  It is either go with what sells or close the doors.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Accurate or not, a person's interpretation is valid for how they choose to live their life, and sometimes this requires extra work to change perceptions and assumptions in very explicit terms, otherwise its human nature to interpret things in a manner that is consistent with our current world view.   

Certainly, but that might have little to do with how many times the actual intent to discourage outside reading actually occurs in various wards.  My comment was just in regards to making your survey useful, not about impact.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm