Recommended Books on Church History from Elder Jensen (Former Church Historian)

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I wonder how different that would be if you separated it into male and females.

I suspect that's a big factor. I've not seen recent statistics but certainly slightly older ones show Mormon women going to college at significantly lower rates than national averages.

Not that that excuses things because I think it important for women to go to college. If many aren't due to getting married and having kids that's something that needs to change. The reality is that in our economy to have a good job is helped tremendously by a college degree. Likewise there are many other benefits to college. I'm not saying college is for everyone.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Fair enough.  In stating that "a GA has advised members to stick to Church publications"  I was specifically referring to the quotes relating to preparing lessons and usage of the manuals.
Sadly enough, those manuals are the only gospel materials many members actually read.

But yes, there are also quotes encouraging members to read the best scholarship on gospel issues.  I wonder why members don't do that in general (some do of course).
Perhaps the manuals should contain some of the "best scholarship".

And while it is totally hearsay and anecdotal, the number of members (and ex-members) claiming their local authorities advised them to avoid non-Church publications is astronomical.  I am sure many such stories are questionable, but where there is smoke, there is fire.  Perhaps some of the local authorities need to listen to the GA's advising members to seek out the best scholarship.

You may or may not consider the Joseph Smith Papers project as "some of the best scholarship," but I do. And I have it directly from the editors and compilers of the Joseph Smith Papers project that their product is now being used by the Church in the preparation of curriculum materials.

So there's that.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for pointing this out, I thought Mormons were more educated than average, I wonder where I got that from.  I appreciate the information that challenges my earlier assumption.  I also found this chart from a 2014 study linked to here:  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/

It ought to be taken into account that the Church of Jesus Christ does a substantial degree of outreach (missionary work). Since we accept people of all backgrounds, that would of necessity take in some who are less educated, and that might have some influence on the numbers.

We take them as we find them and try to teach them to improve themselves.

 

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You may or may not consider the Joseph Smith Papers project as "some of the best scholarship," but I do. And I have it directly from the editors and compilers of the Joseph Smith Papers project that their product is now being used by the Church in the preparation of curriculum materials.

So there's that.

I consider the JSP to be primarily raw data.
You can compile every word Joseph taught in a massive scholarly undertaking.  And it will be absolutely some of the best scholarship.

And then you prepare curriculum using that material, also a good thing.

And you leave the other 99% of what Joseph said on the cutting room floor because we are not allowed to supplement the curricular materials and the members continue to know very little of what Joseph taught.
So there's that minor issue.

I wonder if using the JSP to supplement the manual lessons is acceptable now?  We are allowed to use the manuals and Church magazines.  Why not the JSP?
I could have some fun teaching lessons from the JSP...

Edited June 2, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Church leaders have been discouraging unapproved sources for years though.  Whether that's by warning people to stay away from symposia (including restrictions on church employees for attendance) or not so subtitle talks about the truth not being useful, or controlling the message by endorsing some scholarship officially and discouraging others including punishing the scholars (Mormon Enigma).

Thats what I meant by its part of the culture.  I just see very few statements to seek out the best scholarship, the work on more detailed essays on church history and then the reluctance to mainstream that work and promote it via official channels, which as of late has been getting better, but it there is still a fear of the material in those essays and wrestling with the content theologically.  Even going back to Ballard's talk about "gone are the days", he seems to regret that those days are gone, as if he wishes those days when the church controlled the message were still around.

 

It is easier to find quotes from the GA's about seeking the best scholarship than it is to find quotes warning people to stay away from non-Church produced materials.  (Trust me, I just took another look.)

So as I said to Calm, this tradition in the Church of sticking to Church materials has come from somewhere.  And I think the lay leadership have gone beyond the mark.
But I agree with you about some of the subtle jabs given by GA's that could have led to the leap by lay leadership.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I consider the JSP to be primarily raw data.
You can compile every word Joseph taught in a massive scholarly undertaking.  And it will be absolutely some of the best scholarship.

And then you prepare curriculum using that material, also a good thing.

And you leave the other 99% of what Joseph said on the cutting room floor because we are not allowed to supplement the curricular materials and the members continue to know very little of what Joseph taught.
So there's that minor issue.

Everybody leaves stuff "on the cutting room floor." It's impossible not to.

Purpose and intent need to be considered. I approach Sunday School with different expectations and needs than I would, say, an academic course in or a comprehensive text on Church history. Yet each fills its own  role.

Those who expect Sunday School to be their one-stop shop for everything are unrealistic.

Tools are in place today to help people avoid being blindsided. But if Sunday School endeavored to explore every single side issue that comes over the transom (a thing it would surely fail at) it would be far less able to do what Sunday School does best: build faith and motivate people to righteousness.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[clarkgoble]

42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You may or may not consider the Joseph Smith Papers project as "some of the best scholarship," but I do. And I have it directly from the editors and compilers of the Joseph Smith Papers project that their product is now being used by the Church in the preparation of curriculum materials.

So there's that.

I'd lay really good odds we're going to see a renaissance in curriculum materials over the next 10 year. I personally am hoping for a total rewrite of institute and seminary materials in particular.

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I approach Sunday School with different expectations and needs than I would, say, an academic course in or a comprehensive text on Church history. Yet each fills its own  role.

Those who expect Sunday School to be their one-stop shop for everything are unrealistic.

Completely agree.

Quote

Tools are in place today to help people avoid being blindsided.

And yet it continues to happen.  What can we do to encourage members to study beyond the manual, and are we doing it?
What tools are in place, and what better tools could be utilized?  The essays are a good step, except many still don't know they exist.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, clarkgoble said:

I'd lay really good odds we're going to see a renaissance in curriculum materials over the next 10 year. I personally am hoping for a total rewrite of institute and seminary materials in particular.

Oh, I truly hope you are right.
I'd settle for a little openness.  In the next biographical sketch of Joseph included in a manual, let's list more than Emma as his wife.  How hard is that?

Edited June 2, 2017 by JLHPROF

[clarkgoble]

38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So as I said to Calm, this tradition in the Church of sticking to Church materials has come from somewhere.  And I think the lay leadership have gone beyond the mark.

I think it primarily occurred in the early 90's when you had concerns about Dialog and Sunstone on the left and a near cultish devotion to Joseph Fielding Smith's and Bruce R. McConkie's works on the right. In particular during that era Pres. Hinkely seemed very concerned with breaking the stranglehold McConkie's Mormon Doctrine seemed to hold on far too many lessons. In the early 90's it was pretty common to see lessons that consisted largely of simply repeating McConkie's views. By the late 90's that was rare. So it worked in at least Utah County. I'd imagine the change would take longer elsewhere. Likewise concerns about a democratiziation of policy/doctrine from the left seemed to die down after the September 6. Even the recent women & priesthood issues haven't seemed as significant as events in the early 90's. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And yet it continues to happen.  What can we do to encourage members to study beyond the manual, and are we doing it?
What tools are in place, and what better tools could be utilized?  The essays are a good step, except many still don't know they exist.

I think there have been attempts with Deseret Books in particular coming out with study aids to accompany both the Sunday School and Priesthood/Relief Society manuals. We can quibble with how good they were, but they are certainly better of the status quo of doing nothing outside of Sunday School and rarely even reading the manual.

I think the reality is that people don't study because they don't want to study. Again, how many people even do the readings? I know Pew says 77% of self-identified Mormons read their scriptures regularly but I'm really, really skeptical that it's that high.

[clarkgoble]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Oh, I truly hope you are right.
I'd settle for a little openness.  In the next biographical sketch of Joseph included in a manual, let's list more than Emma as his wife.  How hard is that?

I'm betting that after this Pres. Hinkley manual we get a rethink of PH/RS. If they don't then expect them to just repeat through the existing manuals. They've covered all the prophets except Monson, haven't they? Personally I'd hope for a "women leaders" manual that includes stuff from Eliza, Zina and others although that may be unlikely. I'd also like a more doctrinal like orientation like we once had decades ago if we move away from quasi-topical talk excerpts.

Edited June 2, 2017 by clarkgoble

[hope_for_things]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It ought to be taken into account that the Church of Jesus Christ does a substantial degree of outreach (missionary work). Since we accept people of all backgrounds, that would of necessity take in some who are less educated, and that might have some influence on the numbers.

We take them as we find them and try to teach them to improve themselves.

 

Agreed, I think that's important to remember, and I think some of Clark's numbers point to the lower education levels of converts in particular.  I think it merits some reflection on the reasons for why the missionary message might resonate more with less educated individuals (I don't think the humility argument is a sufficient explanation) and perhaps the church could make some changes to missionary tactics that might yield more successful results.  I think this would be wise for younger generations as well since its clear that missionary success in terms of #s has been declining in the western world for at least the past three decades.  

[hope_for_things]

50 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I wonder if using the JSP to supplement the manual lessons is acceptable now?  We are allowed to use the manuals and Church magazines.  Why not the JSP?
I could have some fun teaching lessons from the JSP...

I believe the intro to the instructors manual for this year for gospel doctrine specifically encourages the use of JSP material, however, I haven't seen its use in our class this year, and we have three different GD teachers in our ward and I've encouraged all of them individually to use the material as well as the SS president and the bishop.  I'm still hoping they end up using it, we have 7 months left of classes on the calendar.  Keeping my fingers crossed! 

[hope_for_things]

49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It is easier to find quotes from the GA's about seeking the best scholarship than it is to find quotes warning people to stay away from non-Church produced materials.  (Trust me, I just took another look.)

So as I said to Calm, this tradition in the Church of sticking to Church materials has come from somewhere.  And I think the lay leadership have gone beyond the mark.
But I agree with you about some of the subtle jabs given by GA's that could have led to the leap by lay leadership.

Hmm... I have a hard time believing this, but I trust that you're probably accurate with your assessment.  It makes me wonder if some of the messages are carrying some additional layers of interpretation that members perceive reinforces the idea of avoiding unfaithful materials.  For example, each time that a leader talks about the evil in our modern world, a member might interpret that to mean stay away from non church approved material.  Things like that.  

Its the tradition of the culture that might require more explicit language from leaders in order to break the chain of negative perception that has been inherited and interpreted over the years.  

[bsjkki]

15 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'd also like a more doctrinal like orientation like we once had decades ago if we move away from quasi-topical talk excerpts.

Please let this happen. Not a fan of lessons by topic. We have good discussions but is anyone learning anything or just having a nice chat about prayer.  

[clarkgoble]

3 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Please let this happen. Not a fan of lessons by topic. We have good discussions but is anyone learning anything or just having a nice chat about prayer.  

I really like topical lessons. It's just that with the current lesson it's never quite clear if we're supposed to be emphasizing the particular prophet or the topic. I guess that's freedom the teacher has. But most of the time I think just having a lesson by topic independent of pushing a particular prophet would work tons better.

I confess it's actually Sunday School I get little out of. I almost always love Priesthood if only because it's much more practical oriented in the discussions.

[Scott Lloyd]

42 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Completely agree.

And yet it continues to happen.  What can we do to encourage members to study beyond the manual, and are we doing it?
What tools are in place, and what better tools could be utilized?  The essays are a good step, except many still don't know they exist.

The essays are a starting point, reflected in the fact that many include links and footnotes to other sources.

[clarkgoble]

26 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

 think it merits some reflection on the reasons for why the missionary message might resonate more with less educated individuals (I don't think the humility argument is a sufficient explanation) and perhaps the church could make some changes to missionary tactics that might yield more successful results.  I think this would be wise for younger generations as well since its clear that missionary success in terms of #s has been declining in the western world for at least the past three decades.  

I'm sticking with that humility point. I think those who are struggling tend to be the only ones open to listening. Typically more of those struggling are those in bad circumstances which tends to be those poorer rather than comfortable middle class. Among the poor you have significantly less education.

That said, I do think you have a point that what works with the typical investigator might turn off those who are more educated. Usually when we were dealing with educated people we ended up spending a lot of time after the discussion talking with them. But honestly I found the less educated were ultimately harder to teach. I remember in particular a family who had a hard time distinguishing between reincarnation and resurrection. Which was really odd given they came from a Christian background.

By and large though it's really hard for 18-21 year old kids to really deal well with the educated. That really depends upon members helping out a lot.

Edited June 2, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Scott Lloyd]

52 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think there have been attempts with Deseret Books ....

 

It's a nitpicky thing, maybe, but the proper name of the company is not "Deseret Books." It's Deseret Book (without the s). It's short for Deseret Book Co.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I really like topical lessons. It's just that with the current lesson it's never quite clear if we're supposed to be emphasizing the particular prophet or the topic. I guess that's freedom the teacher has. But most of the time I think just having a lesson by topic independent of pushing a particular prophet would work tons better.

I confess it's actually Sunday School I get little out of. I almost always love Priesthood if only because it's much more practical oriented in the discussions.

I misunderstood your point. When I taught RS and from my experience, the topics were the focus. The prophet was highlighted at the beginning of the year and the quotes in the lesson drove discussion about the topic. I did not like the hodgepodge jumble of quotes taken out of context around a topic. I would often read the footnotes to place the quotes in context. I only need about 4 inspired questions from four quotes to fill the entire lesson time. At the beginning I prepared more to say as the teacher but would run out of time too fast. The sisters have a lot to say! I just worried sometimes it lacked depth but maybe RS is better designed as a gospel living support group anyway.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm sticking with that humility point. I think those who are struggling tend to be the only ones open to listening. Typically more of those struggling are those in bad circumstances which tends to be those poorer rather than comfortable middle class. Among the poor you have significantly less education.

That said, I do think you have a point that what works with the typical investigator might turn off those who are more educated. Usually when we were dealing with educated people we ended up spending a lot of time after the discussion talking with them. But honestly I found the less educated were ultimately harder to teach. I remember in particular a family who had a hard time distinguishing between reincarnation and resurrection. Which was really odd given they came from a Christian background.

By and large though it's really hard for 18-21 year old kids to really deal well with the educated. That really depends upon members helping out a lot.

Yes, I think the matter of humility ought not be minimized. The scriptures are replete with warnings against pride.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

I misunderstood your point. When I taught RS and from my experience, the topics were the focus. The prophet was highlighted at the beginning of the year and the quotes in the lesson drove discussion about the topic. I did not like the hodgepodge jumble of quotes taken out of context around a topic. I would often read the footnotes to place the quotes in context. I only need about 4 inspired questions from four quotes to fill the entire lesson time. At the beginning I prepared more to say as the teacher but would run out of time too fast. The sisters have a lot to say! I just worried sometimes it lacked depth but maybe RS is better designed as a gospel living support group anyway.

At its heart, every lesson in Church ought to be topical if (according to my understanding) it is first and foremost to be motivational. Stories and anecdotes can help, but they must support the topic to be useful.

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Please let this happen. Not a fan of lessons by topic. We have good discussions but is anyone learning anything or just having a nice chat about prayer.

I don't think actual learning (gaining of knowledge) has been the goal for quite some time.
I think strengthening testimonies has become the primary goal.

So discussing with each other how the Lord has answered your prayers in order to help testimonies of prayer is now what passes for a "lesson" on prayer.
I think it will be some time before any attempt at academic style learning makes its way back into Sunday "school".

[JLHPROF]

53 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Hmm... I have a hard time believing this, but I trust that you're probably accurate with your assessment.

You are welcome to try and find any GA instruction to members to avoid non-Church materials.  As was pointed out to me, they do exists but they only apply to Church lesson preparation.
I'd be interested if you could find anywhere a GA condemned studying scholarly works on the gospel.