New Archaeological Tool Could Find Zarahemla...it's Only a Matter of Time

[Johnnie Cake]

I'm not looking to rehash all of the old arguments either pro or con for the validity of the Book of Mormon...I just thought this was an interesting archaeological development which may in a few years point us all to Zarahemla

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

I imagined it being more like this:

and add.."the other one"!

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I would think that Nephite cities could be discerned from other native cities by their inscriptions, yes? We might also expect, early on at least, for the architecture to be quite different from any other known group. 

Then again, the Nephite group almost surely merged with an existing much larger population that already had their own culture, architecture, and writing system. 

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

I would think that Nephite cities could be discerned from other native cities by their inscriptions, yes? We might also expect, early on at least, for the architecture to be quite different from any other known group. 

Right but if the cities persisted past Nephite control wouldn't such inscriptions have been destroyed? Again what you need is a Nephi controlled city destroyed in just the right time but not destroyed so badly that such inscriptions could be found and deciphered. I'm certainly not saying there is no chance for a Nephite artifact that could identify something as likely Nephite. I'm just saying I don't expect such a thing.

[clarkgoble]

6 hours ago, Gervin said:

Doesn't the Book of Mormon describe a reformed Hebraic / Egyptian writing system that was used for around 1,000 years?  We see plenty of Mayan traces of their writing system in carved stone, in paint on walls, etc.  How could the written language as described in the Book of Mormon not also leave behind examples?

We know there was a priestly writing system. It's not at all clear many people knew it or used it for more general purposes. There are several scriptures that suggest it wasn't. For example Mosiah 1:2 where Benjamin teaches his sons the language of his fathers so they could know the prophecies that had been delivered. That suggests the language of the people was different from the scriptures. It also suggests in verse 4 that reading the engravings is pretty rare. 

While there are some things that seem to have Hebrew influence in the Book of Mormon honestly we don't know whether most are just artifacts of translation. The language of the Nephites is never described. The closest we have in Omni 1:18 where we have people speaking an other language who are taught the language of Mosiah. But neither is described as Hebrew. We also have Mosiah 24:4 where the Lamanites are taught the language of the Nephites but again it's not at all clear what language that was. Ditto with Alma 7:1 where apparently Alma speaks a different language from the people of Gideon, although one could also read that just as his preparing his own talk rather than reading some prepared scripture. Also nearly all mesoAmerican writings were destroyed by the Spanish during their conquest so we have very few writings even though we knew once there were many.

Edited March 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

So if we do not know what a Book of Mormon city would look like, what is in this book?

Mormon's Codex: An Ancient American Book

A book of some strong parallels but no knock down evidence and several theories that not even all apologists agree upon. 

[Stargazer]

I wish I were Paul Allen, or at least had willing access to some of his financial resources.  It would be fun to fund an all-out archaeological exploration of Mesoamerica.  Regardless of Zarahemla.

The problem I have is this: what if the Lord has obfuscated all physical evidence for the Book of Mormon?  We wouldn't find Zarahemla no matter how hard we looked.  Even if it were there.

[Johnnie Cake]

14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I wish I were Paul Allen, or at least had willing access to some of his financial resources.  It would be fun to fund an all-out archaeological exploration of Mesoamerica.  Regardless of Zarahemla.

The problem I have is this: what if the Lord has obfuscated all physical evidence for the Book of Mormon?  We wouldn't find Zarahemla no matter how hard we looked.  Even if it were there.

Hint: It's not

[sunstoned]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

What would a hidden book of mormon city look like, and how could we tell it a part from other non-book of mormon cities?

From the BoM text, one could possibly expect evidence of smelting and metal working, including metal weapons (2 Nephi 5:15).  There would be  synagogues (Alma 16:13; 21:4, 5, 16; 26:29; 32:1; Moroni 7:1) , evidence of domesticated animals, such as horses (1 Nephi 18:25,  Alma 18:9—12) and cattle (1 Nephi 18:25).   And of course artwork that depicted these animals.

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Then again, the Nephite group almost surely merged with an existing much larger population that already had their own culture, architecture, and writing system. 

This whole idea of "others" in the BoM always seems to spark debate.   Apologist tend to support the idea of other peoples existing within the BoM time frame, while many members chose a more traditional belief, one that is supported by words of several modern prophets.  Here is what Elder Holland had to say about it:

Quote

 

Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.) Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.

With care and selectivity, the Lord began almost at once to repeople the promised land. The Jaredites came first, with stories of the great flood fresh in their memories and the Lord’s solemn declaration ringing in their ears: “Whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.” (Ether 2:8.)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/a-promised-land?lang=eng

 

 

[Stargazer]

50 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Hint: It's not

If you had looked and had not found it, I might credit your hint.  However, I know that you haven't.  And pretty much neither has anyone else.

But I know you believe it's not to be found because the BoM is a fraud, and looking for evidence for it is therefore a fool's errand.  You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm not looking to rehash all of the old arguments either pro or con for the validity of the Book of Mormon...I just thought this was an interesting archaeological development which may in a few years point us all to Zarahemla

A cynical person might suspect you are being disingenuous.

[bcuzbcuz]

13 hours ago, ksfisher said:

What if Zarahemla has already been found and we just don't know it.  In looking for Istanbul what if we've found Constantinople?  After all, even old New York was once New Amsterdam...

We can all admit that looking for something without the slightest idea of what we were looking for makes the job more difficult, but just like when you're looking for your car keys and you find a long lost CD instead, an aimless search may not be a complete waste of time.

Steel weapons and elephant bones may have rusted and decayed but there are other things to look for. Food. While the foodstuffs themselves will have disapppeared, the pollens and seeds do not. It is clear from reading the BofM that the Nephites ate differently than the peoples of the Central Americas. 

"All cultures utilize a staple food around which the rest of their cuisine is based; in Europe and the Middle East it is wheat, and in the Far East, rice. In Mesoamerica, the staple undoubtedly was corn, or maize (Zea mays). And not only was maize the primary foodstuff, forming the basis of virtually all meals, it had spiritual and religious significance as well. From birth, when the umbilical cord would be cut over a maize cob, to death, when a small piece of maize dough was placed in the mouth of the deceased, maize played a central role in the cultures of Mesoamerica. According to the Popol Vuh, the "bible" of the Maya, humans are not made of earth but rather were formed from maize dough." http://www.encyclopedia.com/food/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/mexico-and-central-america-precolumbian

So, find barley and wheat and you'll find the nephites.

[Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

We can all admit that looking for something without the slightest idea of what we were looking for makes the job more difficult, but just like when you're looking for your car keys and you find a long lost CD instead, an aimless search may not be a complete waste of time.

Steel weapons and elephant bones may have rusted and decayed but there are other things to look for. Food. While the foodstuffs themselves will have disapppeared, the pollens and seeds do not. It is clear from reading the BofM that the Nephites ate differently than the peoples of the Central Americas. 

"All cultures utilize a staple food around which the rest of their cuisine is based; in Europe and the Middle East it is wheat, and in the Far East, rice. In Mesoamerica, the staple undoubtedly was corn, or maize (Zea mays). And not only was maize the primary foodstuff, forming the basis of virtually all meals, it had spiritual and religious significance as well. From birth, when the umbilical cord would be cut over a maize cob, to death, when a small piece of maize dough was placed in the mouth of the deceased, maize played a central role in the cultures of Mesoamerica. According to the Popol Vuh, the "bible" of the Maya, humans are not made of earth but rather were formed from maize dough." http://www.encyclopedia.com/food/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/mexico-and-central-america-precolumbian

So, find barley and wheat and you'll find the nephites.

Interesting quote, thanks.  And an interesting suggestion!

It seems to me that I read somewhere here something about barley or a barley-like grain that had been found in a pre-Columbian site or sites.  And that it had been taken by the finders as site contamination.  Or I may be imagining it all.  Sometimes unexpected and apparently incongruous finds are disregarded -- how long did it take before the Antikythera mechanism was finally understood to be a sophisticated analog astronomical computer? 

[Ouagadougou]

10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm always surprised every time this apologetic attention deflection technique is rolled out (no offense Blueblell) whenever the question is asked Why haven't we found Zarahemla, a Nephite artifact or anything else that might act as evidence for the existence of any Book of Mormon claim....the apologetic question then follows asking well duh what would that look like?  Why isn't the answer just as simple and easily answered from a direct reading of the BoM that could answer this question.  The city of Zarahemla would look exactly like the Nephite City that it claims to be...complete with Nephite Walls, Nephite armaments such as steal swords and the like, it might have the remains of dead horses, or a wheeled chariots remains, perhaps a wheat or barley silo still within the city walls or any of the other markings claimed to have existed in the Nephite civilization...if we're lucky we might even find a limnah of gold or an onti of silver laying around. Why would we expect to find anything other than what the book claims existed in the Nephite civilization? I mean seriously why make it any more complicated than what the Book of Mormon claims to have existed in the Book of Mormon. So what would we find and what would it look like...it would look like a Nephite City with many of the markings one would expect to find in a Nephite City...also it would probably have a lot of Christology within its walls as well...that's what a Book of Mormon city would look like and that is how we could tell it apart from all non-BoM cities.  But perhaps our best and first choice would be to focus on all of these cities that were destroyed by earthquakes and whose contests and people were buried with them.

How is an Egyptian village identified as an ancient Egyptian village or a Greek village identified as a Greek village...they have all of the markings and contents one would expect to find within an Egyptian or Greek village...why would we rise the bar higher for a Nephite village or city it should have to meet the same standard as that of any claimed ancient civilization?

Archaeologist can tell the difference  between an Etruscan  and a Roman village Why?  Because each has distinct and unique characteristic's.  The distinct characteristic's of a BoM city have been provided within the pages of the BoM...  those unique qualities will easily set them apart form those of the cities of native non Nephite populations

And where in the BoM does it say the people abandoned the language of their fathers and just integrated into other groups of people? 

You are also correct that the city of Zarahemla should contain many things, to include the following:

Synagogues:  Listed 25 times in the Book of Mormon 
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Synagogues

Any type of Reformed Egyptian, Hebrew or Semitic writings.  For example, Mormon 9 says the following:

"32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech."

So, even ~ 400 A.D it shows that they are still writing in some kind of reformed Egyptian, not another language they learned from indigenous groups of people in Central America.    

Steel, iron, brass, copper:
Jarom 1:

"8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war."

Horses / Chariots/ the Wheel:
Alma 20:

"6 Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots."

Gold / Silver Monetary system. For example, Alma 11 states:

 "3 And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given."

Since there isn't a shred of archeological to support the BoM, IMO, the stance for some is to assume that evidence exists in some remote jungle or that it's just disappeared (or that the people in the BoM integrated into other cultures).  The problem is, there is tons of archeological artifacts that have been found for numerous other groups of people that lived thousands of years before the people in the BoM.  

http://www.livescience.com/58162-photos-roman-road-coins-israel.html

They even find evidence of people who lived over 25,000 years ago, but still nothing to support the BoM narrative.  

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/journey-oldest-cave-paintings-world-180957685/

 

 

[Gray]

13 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Then again, the Nephite group almost surely merged with an existing much larger population that already had their own culture, architecture, and writing system. 

That's highly speculative.

[Gray]

10 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Right but if the cities persisted past Nephite control wouldn't such inscriptions have been destroyed? Again what you need is a Nephi controlled city destroyed in just the right time but not destroyed so badly that such inscriptions could be found and deciphered. I'm certainly not saying there is no chance for a Nephite artifact that could identify something as likely Nephite. I'm just saying I don't expect such a thing.

Yes possibly so. Perhaps some of the cities destroyed at around 30 CE might reasonably be expected to fall under that category?

[Johnnie Cake]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

a cynical person might suspect you are being disingenuous.

I respect you Nehor, you often make me chuckle with your quick whit and barbs, but I honestly have no desire to rehash these old arguments. Each of us knows exactly where they lead and how they end...so what's the point.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

8 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

And where in the BoM does it say the people abandoned the language of their fathers and just integrated into other groups of people? 

You are also correct that the city of Zarahemla should contain many things, to include the following:

Synagogues:  Listed 25 times in the Book of Mormon 
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Synagogues

Any type of Reformed Egyptian, Hebrew or Semitic writings.  For example, Mormon 9 says the following:

"32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech."

So, even ~ 400 A.D it shows that they are still writing in some kind of reformed Egyptian, not another language they learned from indigenous groups of people in Central America.    

Steel, iron, brass, copper:
Jarom 1:

"8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war."

Horses / Chariots/ the Wheel:
Alma 20:

"6 Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots."

Gold / Silver Monetary system. For example, Alma 11 states:

 "3 And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given."

Since there isn't a shred of archeological to support the BoM, IMO, the stance for some is to assume that evidence exists in some remote jungle or that it's just disappeared (or that the people in the BoM integrated into other cultures).  The problem is, there is tons of archeological artifacts that have been found for numerous other groups of people that lived thousands of years before the people in the BoM.  

http://www.livescience.com/58162-photos-roman-road-coins-israel.html

They even find evidence of people who lived over 25,000 years ago, but still nothing to support the BoM narrative.  

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/journey-oldest-cave-paintings-world-180957685/

 

 

I understand why apologist's want to dismiss what the Book of Mormon itself says we should expect to find in a Nephite City because none of these things exist in any discovered ancient American city...but taking the BoM at its word...this is exactly the kind of artifacts we would expect to find in a Nephite city and it is also what would distinguish it from the city or village of the Native populations.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[bcuzbcuz]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Interesting quote, thanks.  And an interesting suggestion!

It seems to me that I read somewhere here something about barley or a barley-like grain that had been found in a pre-Columbian site or sites.  And that it had been taken by the finders as site contamination.  Or I may be imagining it all.  Sometimes unexpected and apparently incongruous finds are disregarded -- how long did it take before the Antikythera mechanism was finally understood to be a sophisticated analog astronomical computer? 

Looking for Nephite cities, buildings or temples has proven an impossible task. No one knows what such buildings or cities would look like.

I grew up in the 50's. I remember a continual flow of "new discoveries" that proved the Book of Mormon to be true, that were, with regularity, pushed or published in articles and speeches. I remember looking at pictures of people interacting with other, multi-coloured skin coloured people. Those pictures were represented as "Nephites contra Lamanites". That proved to be either incorrect or intentionally incorrect interpretations.

I've seen pictures of macaws interpretted as elephants, and temples in the jungles of Central America presented as "Nephite", until proven otherwise.

I think it is time to throw aside these careless and ill-conceived comparisons between a very non-specific text in regards to buildings and edifices and concentrate on vegetables and grains that are named specifically.

[clarkgoble]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

From the BoM text, one could possibly expect evidence of smelting and metal working, including metal weapons (2 Nephi 5:15).  There would be  synagogues (Alma 16:13; 21:4, 5, 16; 26:29; 32:1; Moroni 7:1) , evidence of domesticated animals, such as horses (1 Nephi 18:25,  Alma 18:9—12) and cattle (1 Nephi 18:25).   And of course artwork that depicted these animals.

A synagogue is just a building where they met. It doesn't necessarily have any unique distinguishing characteristics.

The only reference to metal swords is very early. So at best we may have a few swords Nephi made of unknown quality and then the sword of laban which is mentioned being used in Jacob and then after only as a kind of token of kingship. There are other hints that the other swords mentioned aren't metal. Even the account of Nephi suggests he's making something like the sword of laban but "after the manner of it." (2 Ne 5:14) It's not clear what that means. Likewise the verse you reference doesn't talk about metal swords but simply working in metal. Note that it doesn't say they were smelting metal. While we assume that's entailed he could very well be teaching them to rework some of the metal they brought with them. The "great abundance" is often taken to refer to all the metals but that's not at all clear. My sense is that "great abundance" modifies "precious ores" but it's not clear what those ores are. The face that ore is distinguished from the metal suggests that the first list are metals they already had and that the ore just refers to the metals they find in the land that aren't specified. (Although he does mention in 1 Nephi 18:25 that they found gold, silver and copper)

Since of course by the time of the main narrative of the book the Nephites don't live where they used to due to invasions, it's not at all clear any of those items would have survived. After the loss of the initial Nephite colony (and since we don't have the 116 pages we don't know much about it) we simply don't hear about metal. The latest reference is Jarom 1:8. There the emphasis on metal is as tills for farming and weapons - but note that the specified weapons no longer include swords. Rather they appear to only be used for arrow/speak heads. That's significant I think to say the least. It suggests they've already lost most of their metal and knowledge of metal work.

Given all that, I suspect there were at best only a few metal weapons. The only problematic metal is really copper. While that was known in the great lakes region it's relatively late in mesoAmerica. But of course we don't know how much copper the Nephites had. 

The next problematic reference is Mosiah 11 where King Noah is described of taxing gold, silver, "ziff", copper, brass and iron. They appear primarily to have been ornamental for buildings. (11:18) 

Certainly just finding copper, brass or iron that could be dated to this era of around 150 BC would be fantastic. The indication is though that these were rare and were decorations. Their rarity suggests that they would have quickly been looted and perhaps melted down into new objects. How many items there were isn't at all clear but the rarity suggests we shouldn't expect to find many of them if at all.

The domesticated animals are the biggest issue since of course there are no evidence of old world animals and the indication of the text is that no old world animals were brought with them -- see 1 Nephi 18:24-5. Only plants are mentioned as brought the listed animals were all indigenous which is one of the many reasons most assume they are old world words applied to new world animals for which they had no terms.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

9 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

And where in the BoM does it say the people abandoned the language of their fathers and just integrated into other groups of people? 

Mosiah 1:2-3 certainly strongly suggests they'd largely abandoned their fathers language such that Benjamin had to teach it to his children. It also suggests the reason wasn't for general communication but reading the texts on their transmitted artifacts. That suggests the language was rare and different from the community at large.

Quote

Any type of Reformed Egyptian, Hebrew or Semitic writings.  For example, Mormon 9 says the following:"32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech."

Except that was the gold plates and we know those won't be found since Moroni has them. Of course there are the brass plates. There's the late reminiscence of Brigham Young that all the records were in a cave, although I'm not sure how seriously to take that. But yeah, there may be some cave somewhere that has these apparently very limited Nephite records. If we find that it'd be fantastic. It's not at all clear we should expect to find this single hidden cave, assuming the angel didn't take the records as Brigham Young indicates.

Note again that there once were lots of mesoAmerican writings. Nearly all these were destroyed by the Spaniards so that we now have a paucity of mesoAmerican writing even though we know they had it.

Quote

Horses / Chariots/ the Wheel:
Alma 20:

"6 Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots."

Horses are the big problem in the Book of Mormon although we should note again that the Nephites didn't bring horses. Thus the apologist explanation that the Nephites followed the normal tradition upon encountering new animals of just applying their old words to new creatures. A common theory is that it's a tapir, although that's speculative.

The Hebrew word for horse wasn't just applied to horses in the old word as I understand the meaning of 'sus.'

The usual argument by critics is that the translation should have used the English word for the animal being referenced rather than merely translating the underlying written word following how that word was translated by the KJV. Honestly that's a kind of lame criticism IMO. It's more or less the "that's not how I'd have translated it" criticism. Given the ubiquity of following the KJV with its language we should expect that for all words. Occasionally a word that's not in the KJV is given and we get an other word with no clear referent.

I'd also note the chariot isn't mentioned as having wheels. We just read that into the text. An either wheelless pulled cart or (as some speculate) a cart not pulled by the "horse" at all but merely associated with it is completely reasonable to the text.

Quote

Gold / Silver Monetary system. For example, Alma 11 states: "3 And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given."

The weights for the gold & silver is an issue. We don't know of it being used in that fashion (unless I'm mistaken -- I'm not a mesoAmerican expert) 

I'm not at all clear what artifact this describes. We know there was silver and gold. Coins aren't described but apparently weights. So if we found a scale that'd be interesting of course. There are such that pre-date Columbus but I don't know of evidence for them being in the era of around 100 BC.

But if you can find a scale of some sort from 100 BC would you consider that compelling evidence for the Book of Mormon? (I'm guessing not)

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I respect you Nehor, you often make me chuckle with your quick whit and barbs, but I honestly have no desire to rehash these old arguments. Each of us knows exactly where they lead and how they end...so what's the point.

The point is to stave off the ennui of mortality.

[Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Looking for Nephite cities, buildings or temples has proven an impossible task. No one knows what such buildings or cities would look like.

I grew up in the 50's. I remember a continual flow of "new discoveries" that proved the Book of Mormon to be true, that were, with regularity, pushed or published in articles and speeches. I remember looking at pictures of people interacting with other, multi-coloured skin coloured people. Those pictures were represented as "Nephites contra Lamanites". That proved to be either incorrect or intentionally incorrect interpretations.

I've seen pictures of macaws interpretted as elephants, and temples in the jungles of Central America presented as "Nephite", until proven otherwise.

I think it is time to throw aside these careless and ill-conceived comparisons between a very non-specific text in regards to buildings and edifices and concentrate on vegetables and grains that are named specifically.

I remember some of that, too, though I didn't join the church until 1966.

I agree with you that if you're going to search for archaeological evidence, it needs to be plausible and not, as you say, careless and ill-conceived.

[Johnnie Cake]

50 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

A synagogue is just a building where they met. It doesn't necessarily have any unique distinguishing characteristics.

The only reference to metal swords is very early. So at best we may have a few swords Nephi made of unknown quality and then the sword of laban which is mentioned being used in Jacob and then after only as a kind of token of kingship. There are other hints that the other swords mentioned aren't metal. Even the account of Nephi suggests he's making something like the sword of laban but "after the manner of it." (2 Ne 5:14) It's not clear what that means. Likewise the verse you reference doesn't talk about metal swords but simply working in metal. Note that it doesn't say they were smelting metal. While we assume that's entailed he could very well be teaching them to rework some of the metal they brought with them. The "great abundance" is often taken to refer to all the metals but that's not at all clear. My sense is that "great abundance" modifies "precious ores" but it's not clear what those ores are. The face that ore is distinguished from the metal suggests that the first list are metals they already had and that the ore just refers to the metals they find in the land that aren't specified. (Although he does mention in 1 Nephi 18:25 that they found gold, silver and copper)

Since of course by the time of the main narrative of the book the Nephites don't live where they used to due to invasions, it's not at all clear any of those items would have survived. After the loss of the initial Nephite colony (and since we don't have the 116 pages we don't know much about it) we simply don't hear about metal. The latest reference is Jarom 1:8. There the emphasis on metal is as tills for farming and weapons - but note that the specified weapons no longer include swords. Rather they appear to only be used for arrow/speak heads. That's significant I think to say the least. It suggests they've already lost most of their metal and knowledge of metal work.

Given all that, I suspect there were at best only a few metal weapons. The only problematic metal is really copper. While that was known in the great lakes region it's relatively late in mesoAmerica. But of course we don't know how much copper the Nephites had. 

The next problematic reference is Mosiah 11 where King Noah is described of taxing gold, silver, "ziff", copper, brass and iron. They appear primarily to have been ornamental for buildings. (11:18) 

Certainly just finding copper, brass or iron that could be dated to this era of around 150 BC would be fantastic. The indication is though that these were rare and were decorations. Their rarity suggests that they would have quickly been looted and perhaps melted down into new objects. How many items there were isn't at all clear but the rarity suggests we shouldn't expect to find many of them if at all.

The domesticated animals are the biggest issue since of course there are no evidence of old world animals and the indication of the text is that no old world animals were brought with them -- see 1 Nephi 18:24-5. Only plants are mentioned as brought the listed animals were all indigenous which is one of the many reasons most assume they are old world words applied to new world animals for which they had no terms.

 

I appreciate you're detailed contribution to this thread...my question however is that you have made a pretty huge assumption that Nephite metals were rare.  Other than knowing that ancient American metals were rare...how exactly do you come to the conclusion that Nephite Metals were rare...I don't get that conclusion from a simple reading of the book...to me, they had metal in all of its forms and it was plentiful...as far as the Nephites were concerned. The mere fact that the plate upon which they recorded their history was on gold plates, a rare metal so it seems was plentiful enough to use to write upon... counteracts your claim...also aren't we told that there were rooms full of metal plates from which Mormon abridged from? Certainly if metal was rare the society  would have put the metal to use in a much more productive use than wasting them on plates

Edited March 15, 2017 by Johnnie Cake