New Archaeological Tool Could Find Zarahemla...it's Only a Matter of Time

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm first off not at all convinced the wrong words appeared. If the method of translation takes the Hebrew word represented on the plates and follows the way the KJV translates that same word how is that wrong? What you're saying is that it shouldn't translate the word but should figure out the reference and provide an English word with the same reference. That's certainly an other valid way to translate but one isn't more correct than an other. You're merely expressing a preference to privileging translating reference rather than word.

Second if Joseph's mind is involved in the translation and Joseph is ignorant then incorrect words could easily appear. If Joseph's effort is involved then the same thing would happen.

While we have no real clue how the translation worked, I'd bet it's akin to how Google translate works. There idea fragments in Joseph's mind. He has to engage in effort to activate those (which are highly biased towards phrases and passages of the KJV but also the 19th century theological talk of the era). The device then matches the proper phrases to the general ideas on the plates.

"According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.^26"  

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true

[clarkgoble]

Could you be explicit to how that quote invalidates anything I said? Notice I even gave a theory of how that could function yet depend upon Joseph's mind and effort. You didn't address that at all. I recognize you don't believe it. And it pretends to merely be a way it could have happened but does not purport to be the way it did happen. Since it seems at least possible to have a device that depends upon Joseph's mental content and effort and which produces words Joseph reads, from my perspective your argument has already been shown invalid.

Since you seem to prefer to just give your conclusions or a single premise or two but not your reasoning it's hard to make much sense out of what you're arguing.

I'm open to hearing where my reasoning is wrong of course. Indeed not wanting to be stuck with bad reasoning I enjoy being shown wrong. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. I earnestly am interested if you have a reason why reading the text implies a passive translation process.

Edited March 16, 2017 by clarkgoble

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

So by the power of God words like horse, chariot, steel appeared on these translation instruments; however, they were not the correct words?  This also means that King James Bible errors also appeared on these instruments.

If that's how translations by the power of God work, then any word in the BoM could mean anything. 

They could be correct enough.  

Coming at it from the direction of the BOM being scripture, the value in the book is spiritual.  In that vein, whether or not something was a wheeled chariot or a travoise is completely irrelevant.  It doesn't matter.  

 

[Ouagadougou]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

They could be correct enough.  

Coming at it from the direction of the BOM being scripture, the value in the book is spiritual.  In that vein, whether or not something was a wheeled chariot or a travoise is completely irrelevant.  It doesn't matter.  

 

I think it does matter if some try to insist that the BoM is historical.  

[theplains]

On 14/03/2017 at 10:51 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

Parcak has already been successful in using this new tool to discover "other" previously unknown Egyptian Cities and sights...Now all we need is someone brave enough to ask her to go on a search for the long lost City of Zarahemla, Earthquake ravaged Lamanite and Nephite Cities from when Christ visited America (so far none have been discovered) or any other hidden Book of Mormon city.  It's only a matter of time until we have actual archaeological proof for the existence of the Book of Mormon....and boy I can hardly wait.

What makes you think this satellite technology hasn't already been used and found nothing pertaining to the
Book of Mormon?  See this National Geographic article.

Thanks,
Jim

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

I think it does matter if some try to insist that the BoM is historical.  

That doesn't make any difference. The fact that new world pre-Columbians were armed with weapons remains true regardless of whether or not the weapon is a sword, like the old world explorers called it, or actually called something else.

The thing to remember is that we are not under any obligation to make our beliefs easy for you to refute.  I get that it's frustrating, as a critic, to have to deal with all of these nuances, but it is what it is. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by bluebell

[Ouagadougou]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That doesn't make any difference. The fact that new world pre-Columbians were armed with weapons remains true regardless of whether or not the weapon is a sword, like the old world explorers called it, or actually called something else.

The thing to remember is that we are not under any obligation to make our beliefs easy for you to refute.  I get that it's frustrating, as a critic, to have to deal with all of these nuances, but it is what it is. 

The burden of proof to prove the BoM actually happened is on the church, not me or others.  There is no archeological, DNA and/or linguistic evidence to support the BoM, IMO.  Your arguments about how words can change doesn't really matter, because the church wants people to focus on understanding the BoM through the spirit/feelings...and not through scientific research.  

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

The burden of proof to prove the BoM actually happened is on the church, not me or others.  There is no archeological, DNA and/or linguistic evidence to support the BoM, IMO.  Your arguments about how words can change doesn't really matter, because the church wants people to focus on understanding the BoM through the spirit/feelings...and not through scientific research.  

do you need scientific research to learn how to repent, have faith, how the spirit works? What have you done with the Bible? there is scientific research for that but what have you done with it?

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

The burden of proof to prove the BoM actually happened is on the church, not me or others.  There is no archeological, DNA and/or linguistic evidence to support the BoM, IMO.  Your arguments about how words can change doesn't really matter, because the church wants people to focus on understanding the BoM through the spirit/feelings...and not through scientific research.  

i.e. the arguments are plausible  but because there's no positive unambiguous evidence demanding we accept it I can still dismiss them. I don't disagree mind you and neither do most apologists.

But this is different from the apologists being wrong with their arguments. 

3 hours ago, theplains said:

What makes you think this satellite technology hasn't already been used and found nothing pertaining to the
Book of Mormon?  See this National Geographic article.

Again to get back to the original topic, what do you expect you could find that would be relevant to the Book of Mormon? Honest question. I can't imagine what would make a Nephite city look any different from a regular mesoamerican city. Maybe there might be an artifact in a city that'd shake things up (although I don't expect it) but most of these cities haven't exactly had a lot of digging done in them.

Edited March 17, 2017 by clarkgoble

[PeterPear]

On 3/14/2017 at 7:51 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

National Geographic Fellow, Sarah Parcak, an Egyptologist, is pioneering the young field of satellite archaeology, using futuristic tools to unlock secrets from the past and transform the way discoveries are made. "We're using satellites to help map and model cultural features that could never be seen on the ground because they're obscured by modernization, forests, or soil," she explains.

Parcak blends expertise with advanced computer programs, satellite imagery analysis, and old-fashioned digging to reveal thousands of new sites, including lost pyramids, temples, monasteries, tombs, homes, and even entire towns.

Parcak has already been successful in using this new tool to discover "other" previously unknown Egyptian Cities and sights...Now all we need is someone brave enough to ask her to go on a search for the long lost City of Zarahemla, Earthquake ravaged Lamanite and Nephite Cities from when Christ visited America (so far none have been discovered) or any other hidden Book of Mormon city.  It's only a matter of time until we have actual archaeological proof for the existence of the Book of Mormon....and boy I can hardly wait.

 

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/explorers/bios/sarah-parcak/

I hope his tool will be able to scan through cement and asphalt parking lots, freeways and mighty cities in the United States.

Or are we to believe the new world geographical location for the Book of Mormon is in a mighty Mesoamerican jungle containing the mighty nation of Guatemala! HA HA HA. But don't mind me. I'm quoting from the Book of Mormon which seems to be overlooked when it comes to locating its geographical location.

7 And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a mighty nation among the Gentiles, yea, even upon the face of this land; and by them shall our seed be scattered.

Edited March 17, 2017 by PeterPear

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

do you need scientific research to learn how to repent, have faith, how the spirit works? What have you done with the Bible? there is scientific research for that but what have you done with it?

We know that Jerusalem (many other cities) Romans, Jews, etc., all existed...not the same with the Zarahemla and Nephites/Lamanites, based on physical, not feelings or the spirit.  Millions died at the Hill Cumorah and they still haven't found a shred of evidence; however, they are finding lots of archeological evidence of even smaller Roman (and other groups of people) battles that occurred way before the BoM. How many millions/billions of different people on earth claim they "know" they have the truth based on how the spirit works and on emotions/feelings/promptings?

Brigham Young at one point believed people lived on the sun (or at least he made that comment either as a man or prophet).  If he really believed that in his heart, soul, from the spirit, it didn't mean it was true or truth.  

[Duncan]

Just now, Ouagadougou said:

We know that Jerusalem (many other cities) Romans, Jews, etc., all existed...not the same with the Zarahemla and Nephites/Lamanites, based on physical, not feelings or the spirit.  Millions died at the Hill Cumorah and they still haven't found a shred of evidence; however, they are finding lots of archeological evidence of even smaller Roman (and other groups of people) battles that occurred way before the BoM. How many millions/billions of different people on earth claim they "know" they have the truth based on how the spirit works and on emotions/feelings/promptings?

Brigham Young at one point believed people lived on the sun (or at least he made that comment either as a man or prophet).  If he really believed that in his heart, soul, from the spirit, it didn't mean it was true or truth.  

Vietnam doesn't prove Forrest Gump was real and the existence of those cities doesn't prove Jesus is the Christ. You're supposed to study it out in your mind first, come to a conclusion, then pray about it don't just sit around and expect God to do everything for you-he wants you to do your homework

Edited March 17, 2017 by Duncan

[thesometimesaint]

16 hours ago, theplains said:

What makes you think this satellite technology hasn't already been used and found nothing pertaining to the
Book of Mormon?  See this National Geographic article.

Thanks,
Jim

1. The search in Mesoamerica is in its infancy.

2. Even if found how could you distinguish them from other ruins, by satellite pictures?

Edited March 17, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

12 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

We know that Jerusalem (many other cities) Romans, Jews, etc., all existed...not the same with the Zarahemla and Nephites/Lamanites, based on physical, not feelings or the spirit.  Millions died at the Hill Cumorah and they still haven't found a shred of evidence; however, they are finding lots of archeological evidence of even smaller Roman (and other groups of people) battles that occurred way before the BoM. How many millions/billions of different people on earth claim they "know" they have the truth based on how the spirit works and on emotions/feelings/promptings?

Brigham Young at one point believed people lived on the sun (or at least he made that comment either as a man or prophet).  If he really believed that in his heart, soul, from the spirit, it didn't mean it was true or truth.  

Men, even prophets, have been known to be wrong on occasion.

[notHagoth7]

12 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

We know that Jerusalem (many other cities) Romans, Jews, etc., all existed...not the same with the Zarahemla and Nephites/Lamanites...  

IMNSHO, Nephites were involved with this city/battle/battlefield.

There is considerable reason to believe that it was the execution of one of their own, early ringleader among ancient-European freedom fighters, which led to this climactic battle. A battle of 12 Roman legions that Jesus apparently alluded to decades later in Palestine. 

Could point to several more battlefields where Nephites engaged. But don't see the need.

As I recall, the key of history is to learn from the mistakes of the past...so we don't repeat them.

Fair 'nuf?

Edited March 17, 2017 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

7 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

...could point to several more battlefields where Nephites engaged. But don't see the need...

On further reflection, the law of witnesses suggests the need for at least one more...where they and their neighbors had learned from the lessons/mistakes of the previous generation:

Edited March 17, 2017 by notHagoth7

[Ouagadougou]

19 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Men, even prophets, have been known to be wrong on occasion.

On occasion I think is an understatement, especially regarding some of the church's claims/doctrine.

For example, just look at what how many times church leaders mention that the Hill Cumorah is located in New York:

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites."

Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ."

Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.
It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon."

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol. 3, Bookcraft, 1956, p. 232-43

Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at or near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York.”

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 175

http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_Did_the_First_Presidency_identify_the_New_York_"Hill_Cumorah"_as_the_site_of_the_Nephite_final_battles%3F

 

For well over 100 years different church prophets, apostles and leaders were wrong just on this one issue.  And now people claim that there are two Hill Cumorahs and just dismiss all of these statements as if it were nothing because, "men, even prophets, have been known to be wrong on occasion."  Can you see why some people might not accept that claim?  

 

[Ouagadougou]

30 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

IMNSHO, Nephites were involved with this city/battle/battlefield.

There is considerable reason to believe that it was the execution of one of their own, early ringleader among ancient-European freedom fighters, which led to this climactic battle. A battle of 12 Roman legions that Jesus apparently alluded to decades later in Palestine. 

Could point to several more battlefields where Nephites engaged. But don't see the need.

As I recall, the key of history is to learn from the mistakes of the past...so we don't repeat them.

Fair 'nuf?

Nephite freedom fighters in Europe?  

A quick search shows this battle was fought between the Roman Republic and Gallic tribes.  

[thesometimesaint]

The Church takes no position on the main location of the events described in the BoM, other than the America's. Personally I prefer Mesoamerica.

[notHagoth7]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Nephite freedom fighters in Europe?  

A quick search shows this battle was fought between the Roman Republic and Gallic tribes.  

Yep. 

Contemporary with (a few years after) Hagoth's northbound sailing ship(s) that vanished from Nephite history....supposedly.

[Ouagadougou]

15 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

Yep. 

Contemporary with (a few years after) Hagoth's northbound sailing ship(s) that vanished from Nephite history....supposedly.

IMO, that never would have occurred... and there is no evidence to support that claim. 

1. In Alma, it says Hagoth sailed West, not East.

"5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward."

This would mean that "West" is an error or that he would have to sail/travel across some great distances to get to Europe if West is correct.  

2.  Given the difficulty and time associated with building a transoceanic vessel, he would only have a few years (Alma 63 was ~56-52 B.C.)  to build his ship(s) and travel across some serious distances (land in Asia and travel to Europe or sail around Australia and cross the Indian Ocean and arrive in the Middle East, unless of course he wanted to travel around Africa as well) and arrive into Europe around 52 B.C.  

3.  From the archeological evidence we do have of this battle, is there anything to suggest people of Israelite origin were present at that time?  

No offense, but I think this is a complete shot in the dark and not possible.  

[bcuzbcuz]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

They could be correct enough.  

Coming at it from the direction of the BOM being scripture, the value in the book is spiritual.  In that vein, whether or not something was a wheeled chariot or a travoise is completely irrelevant.  It doesn't matter.  

 

So a horse could be a pig and wheat could be chocolate, it's irrelevant. A chariot could be a turnstile, a fig , a parrot. When do words actually represent what everyone else thinks they represent? It does matter. 

[Ouagadougou]

2 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

So a horse could be a pig and wheat could be chocolate, it's irrelevant. A chariot could be a turnstile, a fig , a parrot. When do words actually represent what everyone else thinks they represent? It does matter. 

Exactly.  How do you known important words like Holy Ghost, faith, repentance, etc., actually have those meanings?

If a horse could be a tapir, then the Holy Ghost could mean space alien.  It has to affect all words in the BoM, not just a few apolgists cherry pick to fit their needs.    

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

So a horse could be a pig and wheat could be chocolate, it's irrelevant. A chariot could be a turnstile, a fig , a parrot. When do words actually represent what everyone else thinks they represent? It does matter. 

Why?  

Why does it matter if it's a wheeled contraption that is called a chariot or a pulled or carried contraption that is called a chariot?  Given the purpose of the BOM, I'd like to know why exactly God should care what the contraption ends up being called. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by bluebell

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

Exactly.  How do you known important words like Holy Ghost, faith, repentance, etc., actually have those meanings?

If a horse could be a tapir, then the Holy Ghost could mean space alien.  It has to affect all words in the BoM, not just a few apolgists cherry pick to fit their needs.    

Your argument that God has to care about all the words used in the BOM equally, and can't care about spiritually significant words more, makes no sense.