Americapox: The Missing Plague

[Johnnie Cake]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

How do you know there were not a fifty native Americans brought with the one or at other times?  I remember a study that there were a number of documented lost DNA lines in Iceland (they have excellent genealogical records there).  It is, iirc, cited in the GT essay on DNA.  Or be patient I will find it later, back to sleep to make my eight.

We know someone's DNA has to survive.  Doesn't mean all DNA lines are going to.

Just going from the information you posted...but to your question...we don't know what we don't know...but we do know what we know and based on that...I just find it interesting

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Actually. The Small Pox virus can survive for years on the fibers of cloth...such as the clothes of a small pox survivor

Ok fair point, some pathogens can survive outside of a host in the environment for some time under the right conditions.  The vast majority of pathogens however can only survive from minutes to weeks outside a host.  Smallpox is a rare exception but it requires just the right condition to survive:

"...a surface on which a virus can "live" will have a specific definition. The surface most "friendly" to viruses is typically characterized as one that it is not in direct sunlight, is not exposed to cleaning chemicals, and is in a temperature controlled environment; one that is neither too hot or too cold.  Another way to put this is an environment that most humans would find comfortable."

In other words, the likelihood of SP virus surviving on a persons clothing for 8 years in wilderness conditions with more extreme temperatures and direct sunlight exposure is not likely to say the least.  Not to mention, the chances of them having SP virus on their clothing without becoming infected themselves would be next to impossible, unless all of them had small pox at some point in their lives and all survived!  I think you may have the misconception that people from the Old world are all immune and have been inoculated with all of these diseases.  The fact is that someone who has never been infected with smallpox in the Old world is just as susceptible to the disease as any New world person would be.  The only people who develop immunity are those who become infected with the virus and don't die from it. 

What are the chances that the Lehite's were exposed to smallpox, measles, typhus, typhoid, etc. etc. etc. just prior to departure in the wilderness without becoming infected themselves - very, very low.  What are the chances that these pathogens would have survived wilderness conditions for 8 years - probably zero. 

[clarkgoble]

28 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Recent DNA studies....some of which that have been discussed on this board...say otherwise...genetic studies have been able to show that the America's were populated by 5 founding migrations....each with its trace markers intact....despite population size, the passage of time, bottle necks or founder effects.

That's not surprising though. That's exactly what we'd expect if they make up the majority of the population.

Quote

Nonetheless, DNA evidence shows that a sample of Icelanders carry a Native American variation from 4 specific lineages, descended from 4 women born early in the 18th century.  These 4 lineages are likely descended from a single woman with Native American DNA, and at least one lineage’s variation has mutated in a way that would likely have taken centuries to occur.

It's been a real long time since I looked into this but I seem to recall some mixing between my Sami ancestors (more or less the Scandanavian version of Inuit with strong asiatic features -- likely the remnants of the original Europeans before the horsemen from the stepps conquered Europe) with northern Canadian groups. I seem to recall Razib writing on this back when his blog was at Discovery. I'll check.

Edit: there's influence from haplogroup D but it's generally thought to come pre-10,000 years ago from Asian rather than America -- although they don't know for sure. Honestly I'd be surprised if there weren't Saami/Inuit contact given the Greenland area but I guess there's not evidence yet. Here's Razib's post. Although in the comments there's an interesting bit that the similar component in Iceland (Americanoid C1) is also among the Sami and at the same rate. There are cultural similarities too although those might also be explainable by similar circumstance (although they are not found in Russian groups) 

Edited March 10, 2017 by clarkgoble

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Oops...good catch, however my point remains. Small immune populations can infect, to catastrophic levels, large unimmune populations....even if that small population is not  sick at point of contact with larger population.

 

I want to add that no one can answer this question definitively...assuming Lehi existed, we can't say whether Lehi s party carried infectious diseases or not.

No, your point does not stand.  Those who are immune are not infectious, you have to be an infectious carrier of the pathogen or have the pathogen survive in the environment on your possessions.  Almost impossible for that to be the case with Lehi's group. 

Can we say definitively? Maybe not, but there sure is more than good reason to doubt.  

What is clear is that any attempt to discredit the Book of Mormon based on your argument is beyond weak!  What you are essentially saying is that the story must not be true because there is an almost impossible chance that Lehi's group could have been carriers of active infectious pathogens to the Americas after an 8 year isolation in the wilderness.

[Johnnie Cake]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ok fair point, some pathogens can survive outside of a host in the environment for some time under the right conditions.  The vast majority of pathogens however can only survive from minutes to weeks outside a host.  Smallpox is a rare exception but it requires just the right condition to survive:

"...a surface on which a virus can "live" will have a specific definition. The surface most "friendly" to viruses is typically characterized as one that it is not in direct sunlight, is not exposed to cleaning chemicals, and is in a temperature controlled environment; one that is neither too hot or too cold.  Another way to put this is an environment that most humans would find comfortable."

In other words, the likelihood of SP virus surviving on a persons clothing for 8 years in wilderness conditions with more extreme temperatures and direct sunlight exposure is not likely to say the least.  Not to mention, the chances of them having SP virus on their clothing without becoming infected themselves would be next to impossible, unless all of them had small pox at some point in their lives and all survived!  I think you may have the misconception that people from the Old world are all immune and have been inoculated with all of these diseases.  The fact is that someone who has never been infected with smallpox in the Old world is just as susceptible to the disease as any New world person would be.  The only people who develop immunity are those who become infected with the virus and don't die from it. 

What are the chances that the Lehite's were exposed to smallpox, measles, typhus, typhoid, etc. etc. etc. just prior to departure in the wilderness without becoming infected themselves - very, very low.  What are the chances that these pathogens would have survived wilderness conditions for 8 years - probably zero. 

This is an interesting study on the history of smallpox particularly its spread through the ancient world.  Keeping in mind that the ancient world did not use the term small pox to describe the disease...there is evidence of small pox in ancient Egypt...and it is believed that it spread from there throughout the fertile crescent to India by way of trade routs and caravans

Since there is no evidence for a Lehite migration ever happening...out side of the claims of the BoM...all we can really do is speculate on probabilities.  Did small migrations infect larger populations Yes.  Could a small Lehite migration have infected a larger native population...there is no evidence that one happened...but then there is no evidence that a Lehite migration ever actually happened either...so its all just inside baseball speculation and conjecture.  However if Lehi did exist and there had been a massive collapse of the existing civilization circa 600 BC....that would have been evidence to support a lehite migration...but none exists

https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/bt/smallpox/who/red-book/9241561106_chp5.pdf

[pogi]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

"Some people can be chronic asymptomatic (silent) carriers of a disease and yet be infectious such as with typhoid".  It would be unlikely everyone would be asymptomatic even if blood relations, correct?  Likely would have wiped out the original group?

Yes, it would be very unlikely for them all to be immune or silent carriers.  It is not likely that typhoid would have wiped them out though.  To become infected you have to eat the carriers poo , so it is not a highly contagious disease and not really easy to contract.  If the infected person was the cook and didn't wash their hands, yeah, they all probably would have become infected but most would have survived and become immune.  So, Typhoid is not a likely candidate.

Edited March 10, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

This is an interesting study on the history of smallpox particularly its spread through the ancient world.  Keeping in mind that the ancient world did not use the term small pox to describe the disease...there is evidence of small pox in ancient Egypt...and it is believed that it spread from there throughout the fertile crescent to India by way of trade routs and caravans

Since there is no evidence for a Lehite migration ever happening...out side of the claims of the BoM...all we can really do is speculate on probabilities.  Did small migrations infect larger populations Yes.  Could a small Lehite migration have infected a larger native population...there is no evidence that one happened...but then there is no evidence that a Lehite migration ever actually happened either...so its all just inside baseball speculation and conjecture.  However if Lehi did exist and there had been a massive collapse of the existing civilization circa 600 BC....that would have been evidence to support a lehite migration...but none exists

https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/bt/smallpox/who/red-book/9241561106_chp5.pdf

You are using the fact that a small group of people can infect large naive populations as reason to speculate, but you are not considering the variables that make that practically impossible in Lehi's scenario.  The only possible pathogen candidate that I can think of would be small pox, but you have to consider the odds of a small group from Jerusalem coming in contact with a smallpox scab that they packed with them just prior to departure in the wilderness.  The odds of that alone is ridiculous!  Then you have to consider the odds of said group keeping that scab in the perfectly controlled environment for 8 years in the wilderness and across the ocean.  No sir, not likely. 

One would not expect the collapse of the existing civilization around 600 BC in the New world because of a couple dozen travelers from Jerusalem who spent the last 8 years in the wilderness, so the lack of that evidence is not shocking.  Sorry!

This whole debate is NOT about evidence for the Lehite migration, it is about the chances of infectious disease being brought by Lehi's group to the New world.  I'm afraid you have lost that debate. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by pogi

[RevTestament]

On 3/8/2017 at 5:50 PM, MormonVideoGame said:

No, but I think cinepro's point was that there were no Native American bugs that spread to Europe.The video says at least 8 deadly bugs come from the old world, but none from the Americas. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160627160935.htm  ??? 

I wonder, is there evidence that the deer or the tapir were domesticated in ancient mesoamerica? 

or what animals were domesticated? 

Yes, there is evidence that the Mesoamericans domesticated the deer. There is some pottery art that appears to show women breastfeeding deer. This interpretation was corroborated by an eyewitness account of a Spaniard who said he saw natives breastfeeding deer in order to make them friendly, and said they were so friendly, and domesticated they were like a family dog.

[MormonVideoGame]

16 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, there is evidence that the Mesoamericans domesticated the deer. There is some pottery art that appears to show women breastfeeding deer. This interpretation was corroborated by an eyewitness account of a Spaniard who said he saw natives breastfeeding deer in order to make them friendly, and said they were so friendly, and domesticated they were like a family dog.

CFR 

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

You are using the fact that a small group of people can infect large naive populations as reason to speculate, but you are not considering the variables that make that practically impossible in Lehi's scenario.  The only possible pathogen candidate that I can think of would be small pox, but you have to consider the odds of a small group from Jerusalem coming in contact with a smallpox scab that they packed with them just prior to departure in the wilderness.  The odds of that alone is ridiculous!  Then you have to consider the odds of said group keeping that scab in the perfectly controlled environment for 8 years in the wilderness and across the ocean.  No sir, not likely. 

One would not expect the collapse of the existing civilization around 600 BC in the New world because of a couple dozen travelers from Jerusalem who spent the last 8 years in the wilderness, so the lack of that evidence is not shocking.  Sorry!

This whole debate is NOT about evidence for the Lehite migration, it is about the chances of infectious disease being brought by Lehi's group to the New world.  I'm afraid you have lost that debate. 

We don't even know the variables....we don't even know if a Lehite group even existed...its all speculation.  I'm trying (as I believe you are also), to approach this argument from an honest perspective and  for the sake of argument I'm willing to approach this from the perspective that Lehi existed.  So given that, how many years did Lehi sit in a desert while his son Nephi built a ship? You say 8...how do you come to this number? Also the BoM is silent on sickness during their Liahona years.  Did members of his party contract smallpox?  We don't know.  Could they have YES...but we don't know

Edited March 10, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm fully aware of the journey taken by the LGT and its apologetic scaffolding...but I disagree with you on what prompted it.  You seem to assume that it materialized out of a vacuum, isolated from what was occurring around it...I tend to believe that it materialized out of the untenable ridiculousness and the lack of scientific support for the prevailing and LDS promoted HGT.  Do I even need to mention the introduction page of the Book of Mormon written by McConkie?  Ok I just did.  I have no doubt that if reality supported a HGT it would still be the prevailing model...because it offers the most intellectually satisfying conclusion based on a reading of the BoM.  Only when one begins to ask questions regarding distance and travel...does it begin to fall apart.

I still stand by my assertion that by abandoning the HGT new unforeseen problems were created...just as old problems disappeared.

Elder McConkie, who read the Book of Mormon just like most other yokels (like you and me), wrote that intro comment already thirty years after the limited regional view had been adopted whole hog by Mormon anthropologists.  The LDS Church by then had already been heavily funding the NWAF (the New World Archaeological Foundation) through the 1950s fully supporting the limited regional theory, and John Sorenson's landmark two-issue discussion of the issue soon came out in the Sept and Oct 1984 Ensign.  the Brethren clearly accepted that theory beginning in the 1950s.  Elder McConkie's uninformed minority views had no traction, yet you speak as if they were normative and "intellectually" justified -- that the hemispheric theory "offers the most intellectually satisfying conclusion based on a reading of the" Book of Mormon.  At the same time, you rightly consider the hemispheric theory to be untenable and ridiculous, owing to the lack of scientific support.  You even admit that distance and travel become decisive issues.  Sounds more like the two hemispheres of your brain are at war with each other.  Will the real Johnnie Cake please stand up?!

You have basically falsified the actual sequence of events and the reasons for them.  At the same time, you have yet to enumerate the unforeseen problems raised by acceptance of the limited regional theory.

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Elder McConkie, who read the Book of Mormon just like most other yokels (like you and me), wrote that intro comment already thirty years after the limited regional view had been adopted whole hog by Mormon anthropologists.  The LDS Church by then had already been heavily funding the NWAF (the New World Archaeological Foundation) through the 1950s fully supporting the limited regional theory, and John Sorenson's landmark two-issue discussion of the issue soon came out in the Sept and Oct 1984 Ensign.  the Brethren clearly accepted that theory beginning in the 1950s.  Elder McConkie's uninformed minority views had no traction, yet you speak as if they were normative and "intellectually" justified -- that the hemispheric theory "offers the most intellectually satisfying conclusion based on a reading of the" Book of Mormon.  At the same time, you rightly consider the hemispheric theory to be untenable and ridiculous, owing to the lack of scientific support.  You even admit that distance and travel become decisive issues.  Sounds more like the two hemispheres of your brain are at war with each other.  Will the real Johnnie Cake please stand up?!

Interesting that a minority POV (as you claim) was allowed to become the overarching premise of the introduction to the BoM don't you think...assuming you are correct?  Can you explain to this yokel how a minority POV was allow to be promoted in such a predominant manner as finding it way into the BoM years after it had been rejected by the majority of LDS decision makers?  I find this rather odd.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have basically falsified the actual sequence of events and the reasons for them.  At the same time, you have yet to enumerate the unforeseen problems raised by acceptance of the limited regional theory.

Don't have time right now to fully address this...but a few come to mind...such as two Cumorah's and the entire premise of Lehi merging with existing populations, over taking the power structure and governments...as if any government would merely hand over their power to a strange people...these come off as mentally silly propositions...how's that for starters?

Edited March 10, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Kevin Christensen]

And of course there is kind of information on page 5 of a long and detailed 2004 paper by John Sorenson and Carl Johannessen, published by the Sino-Platonic Papers:

Quote

This kind of fact, or secure inference, is vital in our present study. First, since A. duodenale could have arrived in the Americas only in the bodies of (presumably) Asians who came by sea, we can be certain that elements of some particular culture, as well as a set of Asian genes, arrived with them.

Second, vessels capable of crossing or skirting the Pacific were already in use by the 6th millennium BC, and at least one of those craft actually reached South America, where its occupants passed the hookworm on to subsequent inhabitants.

A second species, Necator americanus, also called ‘hookworm,’ has been found in Brazil in prehistoric human remains of the same age (Ferreira et al.

1980, 65–7). Its reproductive cycle is similar to that of A. duodenale. Presence of this second organism confirms the fact that millennia ago nautical

technology that would allow successful voyages across or around the Pacific existed in Asian waters. Subsequently, archaeologists and paleo-pathologists have found decisive evidence in the Americas for the presence of 18 other infectious organisms from the Old World (see Table 4). Most of them could not have come with early Bering Strait migrants, and the others very likely did not. They include additional parasites, bacteria, viruses, fungi, and other micro-predators. Beyond the primary 20, there is enough evidence of transfer across the ocean of another 18 disease-causing organisms to call for further research on their pre-Columbian distribution.

The zoological literature also identifies six animal forms (see Table 6) documented as present in both hemispheres, and possibly 6 more (see Table 7).

The volume of evidence about plants obviously greatly exceeds that on fauna. We will first present salient data on the former, after a short methodological orientation

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp133_precolumbian_voyages.pdf

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Calm]

Don't have time to read everything in case already posted or get the original source, but here is the info off LDS.org:

"A study in Iceland combining both genetic and genealogical data demonstrates that the majority of people living in that country today inherited mitochondrial DNA from just a small percentage of the people who lived there only 300 years ago.24 The mitochondrial DNA of the majority of Icelanders living at that time simply did not survive the random effects of drift. It is conceivable that much of the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples did not survive for the same reason."

Footnote:

"Agnar Helgason and others, “A Populationwide Coalescent Analysis of Icelandic Matrilineal and Patrilineal Genealogies: Evidence for a Faster Evolutionary Rate of mtDNA Lineages than Y Chromosomes,” American Journal of Human Genetics 72 (2003), 1370–88."

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng&old=true

I do not know what this means for tracing lines through other forms of DNA.  When I have time I will try and remember to ask Ugo Perego.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Calm

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

We don't even know the variables....we don't even know if a Lehite group even existed...its all speculation.  I'm trying (as I believe you are also), to approach this argument from an honest perspective and  for the sake of argument I'm willing to approach this from the perspective that Lehi existed.  So given that, how many years did Lehi sit in a desert while his son Nephi built a ship? You say 8...how do you come to this number? Also the BoM is silent on sickness during their Liahona years.  Did members of his party contract smallpox?  We don't know.  Could they have YES...but we don't know

The variables we do know is that they were in the wilderness for a number of years.  Is it likely for SP virus to be viable on a piece of fabric in wilderness conditions for 1 year let alone multiple years?  No.  

Could they have been infected in the "Liahonna years"?  It is a fairly contagious disease and it probably would have spread through the whole group as they didn't have any understanding of germ theory back then and had close contact.  With a 30-75% mortality rate depending on pock distribution, it is highly unlikely they were infected and all survived.  Even if they were infected, the incubation period is only around 2 weeks, so they would have become symptomatic around 2 weeks after leaving Jerusalem, whoever got sick would have either died or recovered and would no longer be infectious after just a few weeks when all the scabs fall off. 

Again, it would be nearly impossible for this group to 1) all survive a smallpox outbreak in the group and 2) be infectious at the time of their arrival in the new world if they were infected at the time of leaving Jerusalem, or 3) have a viable virus from a scab or piece of clothing that could survive 1 year let alone several years in the wilderness.  Remember Columbus' group.  1,300 Spaniards from the old world (who did not have a multiple year buffer in the wilderness) could not infect the people of Hispaniola with SP virus, it took them importing African slaves for that to happen.  S0, if 1,300 people with no buffer could not infect the new world with SP, what are the odds that a couple dozen people who spent multiple years in the wilderness before setting sail would infect the new world with SP virus.  It's a fairly easy question to answer for me.  You have no leg to stand on.  You are not going to make anyone doubt the Book of Mormon based on your weak argument. 

 

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The variables we do know is that they were in the wilderness for a number of years.  Is it likely for SP virus to be viable on a piece of fabric in wilderness conditions for 1 year let alone multiple years?  No.  

Could they have been infected in the "Liahonna years"?  It is a fairly contagious disease and it probably would have spread through the whole group as they didn't have any understanding of germ theory back then and had close contact.  With a 30-75% mortality rate depending on pock distribution, it is highly unlikely they were infected and all survived.  Even if they were infected, the incubation period is only around 2 weeks, so they would have become symptomatic around 2 weeks after leaving Jerusalem, whoever got sick would have either died or recovered and would no longer be infectious after just a few weeks when all the scabs fall off. 

Again, it would be nearly impossible for this group to 1) all survive a smallpox outbreak in the group and 2) be infectious at the time of their arrival in the new world if they were infected at the time of leaving Jerusalem, or 3) have a viable virus from a scab or piece of clothing that could survive 1 year let alone several years in the wilderness.  Remember Columbus' group.  1,300 Spaniards from the old world (who did not have a multiple year buffer in the wilderness) could not infect the people of Hispaniola with SP virus, it took them importing African slaves for that to happen.  S0, if 1,300 people with no buffer could not infect the new world with SP, what are the odds that a couple dozen people who spent multiple years in the wilderness before setting sail would infect the new world with SP virus.  It's a fairly easy question to answer for me.  You have no leg to stand on.  You are not going to make anyone doubt the Book of Mormon based on your weak argument. 

 

Could-probably-even if-so they would have-would have-if they=speculation=we just don't know. 

As to making anyone doubt the Book of Mormon...I agree, nor is that my goal...this whole thread is a mere piece of straw added to other pieces of straw that collectively when added together lead to doubt and questions

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

...this whole thread is a mere piece of straw added to other pieces of straw that collectively when added together lead to doubt and questions

In other words you are grasping at straws. On that we can agree!

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Interesting that a minority POV (as you claim) was allowed to become the overarching premise of the introduction to the BoM don't you think...assuming you are correct?  Can you explain to this yokel how a minority POV was allow to be promoted in such a predominant manner as finding it way into the BoM years after it had been rejected by the majority of LDS decision makers?  I find this rather odd.

Apostle McConkie was in charge of the committee which published the new editions.  It was as simple as that.  The other apostles were not looking over his shoulder when he wrote that introduction, and they got rid of the wrong phrase as soon as they became aware of it.  That's what happens when sincere but mistaken people are in charge.  It does not seem odd at all, unless you live in a perfect world.

8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Don't have time right now to fully address this...but a few come to mind...such as two Cumorah's and the entire premise of Lehi merging with existing populations, over taking the power structure and governments...as if any government would merely hand over their power to a strange people...these come off as mentally silly propositions...how's that for starters?

In fact you are mistaken:  There was always only one Cumorah, not two, as we have pointed out on this board many times.  Your assumption about Lehites merging with the Mulekites is correct, but does not pose a problem at all.  That is only "mentally silly": for those who don't know history.  Real history.  You are off to a false start.

[Rajah Manchou]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

One would not expect the collapse of the existing civilization around 600 BC in the New world because of a couple dozen travelers from Jerusalem who spent the last 8 years in the wilderness, so the lack of that evidence is not shocking.  Sorry!

This whole debate is NOT about evidence for the Lehite migration, it is about the chances of infectious disease being brought by Lehi's group to the New world.  I'm afraid you have lost that debate. 

Wouldn't the odds double when you throw the mixed Mulekites into the equation? Their passage through 'the wilderness' could have been much shorter duration. According to the Book of Mormon the native americans potentially had a double shot of foreign pathogens within the same century. One foreign group to the north and another in the south, with a whole lot of mixing going on a few centuries after their arrival.

[Rajah Manchou]

15 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Edit: there's influence from haplogroup D but it's generally thought to come pre-10,000 years ago from Asian rather than America -- although they don't know for sure. Honestly I'd be surprised if there weren't Saami/Inuit contact given the Greenland area but I guess there's not evidence yet. Here's Razib's post. Although in the comments there's an interesting bit that the similar component in Iceland (Americanoid C1) is also among the Sami and at the same rate. There are cultural similarities too although those might also be explainable by similar circumstance (although they are not found in Russian groups) 

Are you the Clark mentioned in the Razib article?

[clarkgoble]

7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Are you the Clark mentioned in the Razib article?

Yup

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Wouldn't the odds double when you throw the mixed Mulekites into the equation? Their passage through 'the wilderness' could have been much shorter duration. According to the Book of Mormon the native americans potentially had a double shot of foreign pathogens within the same century. One foreign group to the north and another in the south, with a whole lot of mixing going on a few centuries after their arrival.

Yes, the Mulekites would have also posed a potential risk.  But we don't see any of the same Old world pathogens in the New world at the time of Columbus (at least as far as we can tell), so we can assume that they were healthy at the time of travel.  That is not unreasonable at all to assume. 

Edited March 11, 2017 by pogi

[notHagoth7]

On 3/9/2017 at 7:18 PM, Calm said:

That would have been difficult then to enter into the Icelandic population around 1000 AD.

Who says with certainty that it entered the Icelandic/European population then?

They only surmise such because of the readily-available Vinland sagas.

Why not centuries prior to the Vikings?

[notHagoth7]

18 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

...this whole thread is a mere piece of straw added to other pieces of straw that collectively when added together lead to doubt and questions

Johnnie, please share.

Specifically what is it about this thread that makes you question/doubt the Nephite account?

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

Who says with certainty that it entered the Icelandic/European population then?

They only surmise such because of the readily-available Vinland sagas.

Why not centuries prior to the Vikings?

I don't know how they figure out timing.  I will ask if I remember.