What Type Of Marriage Was Joseph's With Fanny Alger?

[JulieM]

10 minutes ago, Nevo said:

I think Hales is probably correct that the ceremony was performed by Levi Hancock by "priesthood authority."

I think that Alger and her family believed the relationship was a divinely authorized marriage. I don't think they would have consented to it otherwise. Fanny had a good reputation and her family were stalwarts in the Church.

Ultimately, though, it was a disastrous experiment that caused significant damage. The "girl business" alienated Oliver Cowdery, enraged Emma, and poor Fanny (who was quite possibly pregnant as well) was discarded like yesterday's trash. 

Obviously, a married Joseph engaging in a clandestine sexual relationship with a winsome teenage housemaid is going to look like adultery to a lot of people, but I think the larger historical context suggests that this was an early, abortive attempt of Joseph Smith to reinstate the patriarchal practice of polygamy.

Thanks Nevo.  I always love reading your thoughts on church history topics.

I have a couple other questions for you (or anyone):

What record do we have that it was Levi Hancock who performed the marriage ceremony for Joseph and Fanny?

And...

Do you know if Joseph had Fanny sealed to him as one of his wives after the keys were restored?  (JHLPROF is looking into this too but found no record of it so far.)

Edited February 28, 2017 by JulieM

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, Nevo said:

I think that Alger and her family believed the relationship was a divinely authorized marriage. I don't think they would have consented to it otherwise. Fanny had a good reputation and her family were stalwarts in the Church.

Nevo,

What evidence do we have that Alger's family consented to or approved of this relationship? 

[stemelbow]

55 minutes ago, Nevo said:

I think Hales is probably correct that the ceremony was performed by Levi Hancock by "priesthood authority."

I think that Alger and her family believed the relationship was a divinely authorized marriage. I don't think they would have consented to it otherwise. Fanny had a good reputation and her family were stalwarts in the Church.

Ultimately, though, it was a disastrous experiment that caused significant damage. The "girl business" alienated Oliver Cowdery, enraged Emma, and poor Fanny (who was quite possibly pregnant as well) was discarded like yesterday's trash. 

Obviously, a married Joseph engaging in a clandestine sexual relationship with a winsome teenage housemaid is going to look like adultery to a lot of people, but I think the larger historical context suggests that this was an early, abortive attempt of Joseph Smith to reinstate the patriarchal practice of polygamy.

I think you're largely correct and the possibilities you describe are likely all things considered.  But it does little to absolve this stuff from our perspective wherein an attempt to "reinstate the patriarchal practice of polygamy" looks every bit the same as what we call adultery. 

Pardon me a bit, though, I just finished Ghosts of Eternity Polygamy this morning, so I'm feeling gung ho, in particular, to do away with our attempted explanations, justifications and all that.  This scenario with Fanny is pretty troubling for the very reasons you describe.  it makes me wish we could divorce the incident and the others from Joseph's intent to bring back biblical directives.  I guess we can't.  I'd maintain though, our effort to make it sound less horrible

[Nevo]

32 minutes ago, JulieM said:

What record do we have that it was Levi Hancock who performed the marriage ceremony for Joseph and Fanny?

And...

Do you know if Joseph had Fanny sealed to him as one of his wives after the keys were restored?  (JHLPROF is looking into this too but found no record of it so far.)

Mosiah Hancock, Levi's son, wrote in 1896: "Father gave her [Fanny] to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him."

According to Brian Hales, Fanny was sealed to Joseph by proxy on April 4, 1899 under the direction of President Lorenzo Snow (Salt Lake Temple Sealing Records, Book D, 243, GS film, 184,590, LDS Family History Library).
 

24 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

What evidence do we have that Alger's family consented to or approved of this relationship? 

We have the second-hand accounts of her brother and mother:

• "John Olger . . . toald me his Sister was Seald to Joseph in Curtlin, this he Said to me in 1868" (John Hawley Autobiography, January 1885).
• "Fanny Alger’s mother says Fanny was sealed to Joseph by Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland in 1835-or 6" (Eliza Jane Webb to Mary E. Bond, 24 April 1876).

And an account from her cousin, Mosiah Hancock:

• "Father goes to the Father Samuel Alger—his Father’s Brother in Law and [said] 'Samuel the Prophet Joseph loves your Daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you'—Uncle Sam Says—'Go and talk to the old woman about it twi’ll be as She says' Father goes to his Sister and said 'Clarissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' Said She 'go and talk to Fanny it will be all right with me'—Father goes to Fanny and said 'Fanny Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife'? 'I will Levi' Said She" (Mosiah Hancock, 1896).

These are late accounts but I see no reason to think that they're lying—particularly Eliza Jane Webb, who in 1876 was no longer in the Church.

[JulieM]

42 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Nevo,

What evidence do we have that Alger's family consented to or approved of this relationship? 

I found this (it also answers one of my questions about Levi being the one to marry them). It's not first hand and it seems a bit too tidy for me, but who knows?  Most we know about this seems to come from Levi's son, Mosiah:

“Therefore Brother Joseph said ‘Brother Levi I want to make a bargain with you – If you will get Fanny Alger for me for a wife you may have Clarissa Reed. I love Fanny.' ‘I will' Said Father. ‘Go brother Levi and the Lord will prosper you' Said Joseph – Father goes to the Father Samuel Alger – Father's Brother in Law and [said] ‘Samuel the Prophet Joseph loves your Daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' – Uncle Sam Says – ‘Go and talk to the Old woman about it twill be as She says' Father goes to his Sister and said ‘Clarrissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' Said She ‘go and talk to Fanny it will be all right with me' – Father goes to Fanny and said ‘Fanny Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife?' ‘I will Levi' Said She – Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said ‘Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission' – Father gave her to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him.”
- Mosiah Hancock Autobiography, pp. 62-63

 

Are there any firsthand accounts or writings on this marriage?

[rongo]

Steven Sorenson, from Church Archives, told me that Mosiah Hancock's recollection of this is problematic, given his young age at the time vs. his age when he recorded it. I haven't done the math, so I'm not sure how young and how old that makes him. This was part of a phone conversation when he called at the request of the county historian in New York when I had called asking about the Neely "glasslooker" bill. He offered to answer any historical questions I had.

I think that we actually have precious little to go on as far as indisputable facts, so the Fanny Alger issue becomes more of a mirror reflecting how we currently stand to Joseph Smith than anything else. I recall reading in Rough Stone Rolling that Fanny Alger later in life acknowledged it but refused to talk about it at all. 

[Jeanne]

49 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think you're largely correct and the possibilities you describe are likely all things considered.  But it does little to absolve this stuff from our perspective wherein an attempt to "reinstate the patriarchal practice of polygamy" looks every bit the same as what we call adultery. 

Pardon me a bit, though, I just finished Ghosts of Eternity Polygamy this morning, so I'm feeling gung ho, in particular, to do away with our attempted explanations, justifications and all that.  This scenario with Fanny is pretty troubling for the very reasons you describe.  it makes me wish we could divorce the incident and the others from Joseph's intent to bring back biblical directives.  I guess we can't.  I'd maintain though, our effort to make it sound less horrible

For all the efforts though, it is what it is. This is an episode that I feel great pain for Fanny and Emma.  And how do we discount Oliver's observations?  We take Cowdery's other comments as some divine truths as well as a witness in many things

[Jeanne]

30 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I found this (it also answers one of my questions about Levi being the one to marry them). It's not first hand and it seems a bit too tidy for me, but who knows?  Most we know about this seems to come from Levi's son, Mosiah:

“Therefore Brother Joseph said ‘Brother Levi I want to make a bargain with you – If you will get Fanny Alger for me for a wife you may have Clarissa Reed. I love Fanny.' ‘I will' Said Father. ‘Go brother Levi and the Lord will prosper you' Said Joseph – Father goes to the Father Samuel Alger – Father's Brother in Law and [said] ‘Samuel the Prophet Joseph loves your Daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' – Uncle Sam Says – ‘Go and talk to the Old woman about it twill be as She says' Father goes to his Sister and said ‘Clarrissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' Said She ‘go and talk to Fanny it will be all right with me' – Father goes to Fanny and said ‘Fanny Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife?' ‘I will Levi' Said She – Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said ‘Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission' – Father gave her to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him.”
- Mosiah Hancock Autobiography, pp. 62-63

 

Are there any firsthand accounts or writings on this marriage?

I read this as "you give me this...I will give you that"  Unfortunately this and that are real people made as sort of a bargaining tool.

[JulieM]

27 minutes ago, rongo said:

Steven Sorenson, from Church Archives, told me that Mosiah Hancock's recollection of this is problematic, given his young age at the time vs. his age when he recorded it. I haven't done the math, so I'm not sure how young and how old that makes him. This was part of a phone conversation when he called at the request of the county historian in New York when I had called asking about the Neely "glasslooker" bill. He offered to answer any historical questions I had.

I think that we actually have precious little to go on as far as indisputable facts, so the Fanny Alger issue becomes more of a mirror reflecting how we currently stand to Joseph Smith than anything else. I recall reading in Rough Stone Rolling that Fanny Alger later in life acknowledged it but refused to talk about it at all. 

Fanny didn't acknowledge that they were actually married (that I have found.)

When asked about her relationship with Joseph by her brother later in life, she's quoted as stating:

"That is all a matter of my own, and I have nothing to communicate."

[stemelbow]

51 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I found this (it also answers one of my questions about Levi being the one to marry them). It's not first hand and it seems a bit too tidy for me, but who knows?  Most we know about this seems to come from Levi's son, Mosiah:

“Therefore Brother Joseph said ‘Brother Levi I want to make a bargain with you – If you will get Fanny Alger for me for a wife you may have Clarissa Reed. I love Fanny.' ‘I will' Said Father. ‘Go brother Levi and the Lord will prosper you' Said Joseph – Father goes to the Father Samuel Alger – Father's Brother in Law and [said] ‘Samuel the Prophet Joseph loves your Daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' – Uncle Sam Says – ‘Go and talk to the Old woman about it twill be as She says' Father goes to his Sister and said ‘Clarrissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' Said She ‘go and talk to Fanny it will be all right with me' – Father goes to Fanny and said ‘Fanny Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife?' ‘I will Levi' Said She – Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said ‘Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission' – Father gave her to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him.”
- Mosiah Hancock Autobiography, pp. 62-63

 

Are there any firsthand accounts or writings on this marriage?

Not that I know of.  It makes this all very hard to draw many conclusions.  I don't think there is any evidence that Joseph saw Fanny as a plural wife, nor that Fanny saw herself as Joseph's wife, nor that Emma thought the two of them were married or sealed in some sense. 

[JulieM]

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Not that I know of.  It makes this all very hard to draw many conclusions.  I don't think there is any evidence that Joseph saw Fanny as a plural wife, nor that Fanny saw herself as Joseph's wife, nor that Emma thought the two of them were married or sealed in some sense. 

I tend to agree.

If Joseph thought of her as his wife, why didn't he have her sealed to him after he received the sealing keys?

It seems it was called a marriage in hindsight.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JulieM said:

I tend to agree.

If Joseph thought of her as his wife, why didn't he have her sealed to him after he received the sealing keys?

Because it was ended?  Fanny seems to have changed her mind even if her family didn't...though this is off recollections and I don't have time to check yet.  Will later if I remember.

Is there any evidence that Joseph was sealed while he was living to women who were not fully in the Church?

Edited March 1, 2017 by Calm

[cinepro]

Over the years I've read a bunch of books about different "small religious groups" that have been formed and dissolved (sometimes violently) over the past few decades.  Some were well known, others not so well-known. 

One common thread in all of these is that the leader of the group usually introduces strict "moral codes" for behavior, including what the members can eat, drink, wear and how to conduct themselves sexually.  But in almost all cases, the leader excused themselves from the code, especially regarding sexual matters, usually with some explanation involving "special permission" or authority, needing special help to keep their strength or spirits in tune, or some other reason that made perfect sense to their followers.

Obviously, this might have nothing to do with the subject under discussion, but when I first heard about Fanny Alger (back when I read "Mormon Enigma" in 2003), I remember thinking to myself "You have got to be kidding!"  It was the same thing, for the same reasons, I had heard about with so many other people.  It seems to be one of the great temptations of leaders of small religious groups, and if Joseph's situation with Fanny was condoned by God (as believers believe it must have been), I can only say that I wish God was aware of this propensity and took special steps to avoid it instead of commanding him to do something that looked exactly like it.

Edited February 28, 2017 by cinepro

[Nevo]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Are there any firsthand accounts or writings on this marriage?

Yes.

[Nevo]

52 minutes ago, JulieM said:

If Joseph thought of her as his wife, why didn't he have her sealed to him after he received the sealing keys?

By 1842 she was out of the Church, living in another state, and married to another man. How would he have had her sealed to him? By proxy? I don't think two people have ever been sealed by proxy while both were living.

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, Nevo said:

I think Hales is probably correct that the ceremony was performed by Levi Hancock by "priesthood authority."

Hales explanation is filled with conjecture, speculation and unsubstantiated second and third hand rumors...what exactly about his narrative did you find so complelling that it convinced you he was correct?

Quote

I think that Alger and her family believed the relationship was a divinely authorized marriage. I don't think they would have consented to it otherwise. Fanny had a good reputation and her family were stalwarts in the Church.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?  I haven't seen anything that would suggest that the Alger family viewed their relationship was a divinely authorized marriage.

Quote

Ultimately, though, it was a disastrous experiment that caused significant damage. The "girl business" alienated Oliver Cowdery, enraged Emma, and poor Fanny (who was quite possibly pregnant as well) was discarded like yesterday's trash. 

We agree...a complete disaster

Quote

Obviously, a married Joseph engaging in a clandestine sexual relationship with a winsome teenage housemaid is going to look like adultery to a lot of people, but I think the larger historical context suggests that this was an early, abortive attempt of Joseph Smith to reinstate the patriarchal practice of polygamy.

What "Larger Historical Context" are you referring to? Hales conjecture, speculation and unsubstantiated second and third hand rumors?

Edited February 28, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, Nevo said:

By 1842 she was out of the Church, living in another state, and married to another man. How would he have had her sealed to him? By proxy? I don't think two people have ever been sealed by proxy while both were living.

Joseph could have while she was still living if you look at how Jane Manning was living when a proxy was used for her. 

[JulieM]

55 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Yes.

Eliza R. Snow was a witness to the fuss Emma made, but not to the marriage (from what I see here). I think several knew that Emma made a scene though, didn't they? 

That's an interesting find though.

Who wrote that?  McAllister? 

ETA: I see now these are research notes taken by Andrew Jensen.  Don't know if that constitutes a firsthand account though (?)

I also wonder how long Joseph and Fanny we're together before Emma discovered them.  Do we have any dates on that?

Edited February 28, 2017 by JulieM

[Black Moclips]

3 hours ago, Nevo said:

Obviously, a married Joseph engaging in a clandestine sexual relationship with a winsome teenage housemaid is going to look like adultery to a lot of people........

If it has feathers and waddles around quacking, don't we just conclude its a duck?

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Nevo said:

Mosiah Hancock, Levi's son, wrote in 1896: "Father gave her [Fanny] to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him."

According to Brian Hales, Fanny was sealed to Joseph by proxy on April 4, 1899 under the direction of President Lorenzo Snow (Salt Lake Temple Sealing Records, Book D, 243, GS film, 184,590, LDS Family History Library).
 

We have the second-hand accounts of her brother and mother:

• "John Olger . . . toald me his Sister was Seald to Joseph in Curtlin, this he Said to me in 1868" (John Hawley Autobiography, January 1885).
• "Fanny Alger’s mother says Fanny was sealed to Joseph by Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland in 1835-or 6" (Eliza Jane Webb to Mary E. Bond, 24 April 1876).

And an account from her cousin, Mosiah Hancock:

• "Father goes to the Father Samuel Alger—his Father’s Brother in Law and [said] 'Samuel the Prophet Joseph loves your Daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you'—Uncle Sam Says—'Go and talk to the old woman about it twi’ll be as She says' Father goes to his Sister and said 'Clarissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' Said She 'go and talk to Fanny it will be all right with me'—Father goes to Fanny and said 'Fanny Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife'? 'I will Levi' Said She" (Mosiah Hancock, 1896).

These are late accounts but I see no reason to think that they're lying—particularly Eliza Jane Webb, who in 1876 was no longer in the Church.

Thanks Nevo for sharing.  The Mosiah Hancock recollections are very problematic for me, anachronistic content, he wouldn't have had knowledge about these things personally, and he added these things to Levi's biography after he died.  I just have a hard time believing them.  

I am interested in learning more about the Eliza Jane Webb letter to Mary Bond, that one sounds interesting. I kind of find all of these late recollections to be just a little too apologetic, trying to clean up the story to honor Joseph Smith's memory.  But with Eliza Jane Webb, she no longer being a member of the church, that one is interesting.  I know that Richard Bushman shares this quote in RSR that Fanny Alger was asked about her relationship with Joseph Smith after his death, and said quote "That is all a matter of my own, and I have nothing to communicate." (RSR page 327)

A couple interesting resources to consider as well,  This .pdf I found helpful.  

https://exploringmormonism.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/DatingFannyAlger.pdf

Also, the first chapter of Persistence of Polygamy there is an essay by Don Bradley on this topic, and I don't have the book, but you can read the first few pages of it as a preview on Amazon.  I need to get that one and read the whole thing.  

https://www.amazon.com/Persistence-Polygamy-Joseph-Origins-Mormon/dp/193490113X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1488318808&sr=1-1&keywords=the+persistence+of+polygamy

 

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Steven Sorenson, from Church Archives, told me that Mosiah Hancock's recollection of this is problematic, given his young age at the time vs. his age when he recorded it. I haven't done the math, so I'm not sure how young and how old that makes him. This was part of a phone conversation when he called at the request of the county historian in New York when I had called asking about the Neely "glasslooker" bill. He offered to answer any historical questions I had.

I think that we actually have precious little to go on as far as indisputable facts, so the Fanny Alger issue becomes more of a mirror reflecting how we currently stand to Joseph Smith than anything else. I recall reading in Rough Stone Rolling that Fanny Alger later in life acknowledged it but refused to talk about it at all. 

Yes I agree with your assessment...its probably true that how we view the Alger affair reflects how we view Smith 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

I found this (it also answers one of my questions about Levi being the one to marry them). It's not first hand and it seems a bit too tidy for me, but who knows?  Most we know about this seems to come from Levi's son, Mosiah:

“Therefore Brother Joseph said ‘Brother Levi I want to make a bargain with you – If you will get Fanny Alger for me for a wife you may have Clarissa Reed. I love Fanny.' ‘I will' Said Father. ‘Go brother Levi and the Lord will prosper you' Said Joseph – Father goes to the Father Samuel Alger – Father's Brother in Law and [said] ‘Samuel the Prophet Joseph loves your Daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' – Uncle Sam Says – ‘Go and talk to the Old woman about it twill be as She says' Father goes to his Sister and said ‘Clarrissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife what say you' Said She ‘go and talk to Fanny it will be all right with me' – Father goes to Fanny and said ‘Fanny Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife will you be his wife?' ‘I will Levi' Said She – Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said ‘Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission' – Father gave her to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him.”
- Mosiah Hancock Autobiography, pp. 62-63

 

Are there any firsthand accounts or writings on this marriage?

Yeah, I find that interesting.  So do we have evidence that Levi moved forward with a polygamous union to Clarissa Reed?  That would help bolster that recollection.

One other question for anyone, there is a recollection that Fanny left Kirtland pregnant, I'm assuming with Joseph's child, but do we have any DNA testing of her posterity that could tell us whether this was Joseph's child?   I don't know if the child even survived, does anyone know? 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Steven Sorenson, from Church Archives, told me that Mosiah Hancock's recollection of this is problematic, given his young age at the time vs. his age when he recorded it. I haven't done the math, so I'm not sure how young and how old that makes him. This was part of a phone conversation when he called at the request of the county historian in New York when I had called asking about the Neely "glasslooker" bill. He offered to answer any historical questions I had.

I think that we actually have precious little to go on as far as indisputable facts, so the Fanny Alger issue becomes more of a mirror reflecting how we currently stand to Joseph Smith than anything else. I recall reading in Rough Stone Rolling that Fanny Alger later in life acknowledged it but refused to talk about it at all. 

Mosiah was born in 1834, so depending on when you date the relationship with Fanny (1832-1833 is the earliest and some think 1835-1836) Mosiah was either a toddler or not even born yet.  He would have had no first hand knowledge of the relationship.  

[JulieM]

32 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I am interested in learning more about the Eliza Jane Webb letter to Mary Bond, that one sounds interesting. I kind of find all of these late recollections to be just a little too apologetic, trying to clean up the story to honor Joseph Smith's memory.  But with Eliza Jane Webb, she no longer being a member of the church, that one is interesting.

I'd be interested in seeing more of what she wrote too.

It's interesting that she states Joseph and Fanny were "sealed" and that she named Oliver as the person who sealed them.

When did Joseph first start calling his plural marriages sealings, do you know? 

Edited February 28, 2017 by JulieM

[Glenn101]

20 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I am interested in learning more about the Eliza Jane Webb letter to Mary Bond, that one sounds interesting. I kind of find all of these late recollections to be just a little too apologetic, trying to clean up the story to honor Joseph Smith's memory.  But with Eliza Jane Webb, she no longer being a member of the church, that one is interesting.  I know that Richard Bushman shares this quote in RSR that Fanny Alger was asked about her relationship with Joseph Smith after his death, and said quote "That is all a matter of my own, and I have nothing to communicate." (RSR page 327)

Why do you find statements by those who remained faithful in the church problematic, somehow less reliable, than those of one who fell away from the church, when the latter corroborates the former?