Should the Johnson Amendment (forbids religions and charities from endorsing candidates) be repealed?

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Christianity does influence legislation and courts. Courts still use the Bible. 

I would be amused to see you try and provide court decisions that quote scripture as legal precedent. If you are referring to having a bust of the Ten Commandments outside then, fair warning, I will laugh in your face.

[MormonVideoGame]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you're determined to dodge the question then.

I guess you have no answer.

I don't see how what your question has anything to do with what I am saying, I never said a specific religion governs the USA.

Why are religious countries more corrupt? I don't know. I know strong economic growth does help a country, but notice it's good economy, not religion, that helps. 

I know religion in some parts of the world causes big problems, like the Palestine-Israel conflict.

Anyways, non-authoritarian secular countries are doing much better. 

Perhaps you can tell me what Jesus meant in  John 18:36?

[MormonVideoGame]

The irony that the most Christ-like countries are non-authoritarian and secular.They understand what Love one another is 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index#Global_Peace_Index_rankings

[MormonVideoGame]

47 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would be amused to see you try and provide court decisions that quote scripture as legal precedent. If you are referring to having a bust of the Ten Commandments outside then, fair warning, I will laugh in your face.

I did not say " court decisions that quote scripture as legal precedent"  

I said religion does influence legislation and courts. 

Here is one case in which jurors were clearly influenced by their belief in spirits 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/couples-murderer-jailed-in-ouija-board-retrial-1389824.html

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Why are religious countries more corrupt? I don't know. I know strong economic growth does help a country, but notice it's good economy, not religion, that helps. 

I know religion in some parts of the world causes big problems, like the Palestine-Israel conflict.

Anyways, non-authoritarian secular countries are doing much better.

Given the number of countries in the world that have not been polled and the unequal sizes of countries and their populations, the different types of governments and thus the level of influence the general population's beliefs may have on that government (it may be possible that the elite in the government have significantly different religious views), the vast variety of religious faiths within most countries, plus numerous other variables that are not controlled for in the data you are appealing to, I think depending on your conclusion is more an emotional choice than a rational one.  At best (and I think this is a huge stretch), correlation has been demonstrated...perhaps it is the corruption that has driven people towards more religious views and not religion that has cultivated an environment that allows for corruption. 

It is just sloppy statistics from what I see.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Calm

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I did not say " court decisions that quote scripture as legal precedent"  

I said religion does influence legislation and courts. 

Here is one case in which jurors were clearly influenced by their belief in spirits 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/couples-murderer-jailed-in-ouija-board-retrial-1389824.html

Oh, right, it is you. The guy convinced that if religion went away we would be living in a utopia. Sorry for ruining the world for you but no, we are not going to go away.

[MormonVideoGame]

 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Oh, right, it is you. The guy convinced that if religion went away we would be living in a utopia. Sorry for ruining the world for you but no, we are not going to go away.

Does Jesus want you to waste your time with Outer Darkness people like me? Make sure religion doesn't go away, go do more important stuff like home teaching, there is someone in your ward that needs your visit. Jesus doesn't care about apologetics, he wants you to preach the gospel. 

Elder Dallin H. Oaks said in General conference "We have to forego some good things in order to choose others that are better or best because they develop faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and strengthen our families...Surfing the Internet is not better than serving the Lord or strengthening the family" 

[MormonVideoGame]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Given the number of countries in the world that have not been polled

The Corruption Perceptions Index 2016 has data for all countries, I am not sure which statistic you are talking about.  

"The CPI 2016 is calculated using 13 different data sources from 12 different institutions that capture perceptions of corruption within the past two years. These sources are described in detail in the accompanying source description document."  

The Data is also compatiable with other statistics like the Global Peace Index 2016 or the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime

4 hours ago, Calm said:

 perhaps it is the corruption that has driven people towards more religious views 

Probably, but very corrupt countries also have high rates of violence. It's a good economy that makes a country more peaceful, not religion. 

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Outer Darkness people like me? 

Unless you are stating to know the stuff you are denying here is actually truth, as well as intending to knowingly try to destroy God and all his works , you are arrogantly and ignorantly claiming a label you are not even close to qualifying for.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

The religion data map, significant portions were missing unless I misread it.  You may have one set of decent data that may or may not  be suited for your purposes, but you are trying to combine it with what appears to be an incomplete and imprecise one for your conclusion.

Measures of religiosity involve much more than just asking someone if they identify as a believer.

Your  maps aren't terribly consistent either.  One has Russia as least religious, the other in its motst religious category of 25 percent or less as agnostic, etc.  And one has China tested as its largest agnostic/atheist country while the other hasn't any data from it.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

13 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

The irony that the most Christ-like countries are non-authoritarian and secular.They understand what Love one another is 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index#Global_Peace_Index_rankings

They are also very, very cold. Iceland, no thank you.

Edited February 9, 2017 by rodheadlee

[hagoth7]

On 2/2/2017 at 11:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Anyone here heard of the Johnson Amendment?

It forbids 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations -- including charities, universities and churches -- from endorsing or opposing political candidates. Doing so could cause them to lose their tax-exempt status.

At today's National Prayer Breakfast, President Trump reiterated his intent, voiced during his election campaign, to repeal the Johnson Amendment.

Ordinarily I might oppose such a move. But now, with Fred Karger gunning for the Church, trying to deprive it of its tax-exempt status (altogether unjustifiably, in my view), repeal of the Johnson Amendment might be a thing that is needed to help protect the Church against ill-intentioned parties like Karger and his ilk.

So now, I'm not sure how I feel about repealing the amendment....

I am quite sure of how I feel.

Although I once considered the option of launching a 501c3, after seeing what it excluded, I would *not* launch a 501c3 org under current conditions, because I would *want* any organization I led or contributed to...to be free to advocate/lobby for political/social change...and would otherwise be selling out to mammon for a temporary small tax break to agree to be silenced. 

So I would much rather pay tax...render unto Caesar...(to whatever realm I happen to support) and be free to speak my mind....and to also be free to agitate for needed change. Just sayin'

FWIW

Sincerely,

Pot Stirrer

[hagoth7]

And how I feel about repealing the amendment?

Bad idea.

Separation of church and state serves a *very* important purpose.

The push to repeal it is likely an executive grab for more power/support....religions beholden to the new executive. Generally not a good idea. Historically, a terrible/tragic idea.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 

Does Jesus want you to waste your time with Outer Darkness people like me? Make sure religion doesn't go away, go do more important stuff like home teaching, there is someone in your ward that needs your visit. Jesus doesn't care about apologetics, he wants you to preach the gospel. 

Elder Dallin H. Oaks said in General conference "We have to forego some good things in order to choose others that are better or best because they develop faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and strengthen our families...Surfing the Internet is not better than serving the Lord or strengthening the family" 

Jesus is not obsessed with my downtime or hobbies.

Don't you have more important things to do like stamping out corruption or protesting the Ten Commandments being on display in a courthouse?

[thesometimesaint]

21 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Which explains why poor white Southerners refused to fight for the South.  Oh wait … 

Ultimately, it was economics  that solved the problem?  That would have been news to the 650,000 who were killed during the Civil War and to the millions of soldiers who suffered permanent disabilities and lifelong chronic illnesses. 

If anything, economics is arguably the primary reason why the elimination of slavery was a “long time in coming” -- in particular, the great increase of productivity due to the invention of the cotton gin. 

As you point out, the US Constitution was “designed to be a secular document, as it appeals to no God or Sovereign for its authority.”  A great pity that this secular document condoned slavery.  Perhaps had it made such an appeal to God -- say, by including a few lines from the Declaration of Independence  -- the elimination of slavery may not have been such a “long time in coming.”  “All men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  That to secure these rights,  Governments are instituted among men…”) comes to mind.    

"At least we aren't "N" word's"  was a popular phrase in the South. Maybe you need a crash course in the Dred Scott Decision.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford

All wars are fought for economics. Putting in racism just justifies it to the rube's that fight in it.

England had outlawed many slavery years before the invention of the cotton gin. Plus its invention furthered slavery in the South.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

The US was late to the party.

SEE http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24714547/ns/us_news-gut_check/t/s-s-slavery-invention-race/#.WJysBX9SWA8

It didn't condone it, it actually put slavery into law. The reason behind it was to keep the South, particularly Virginia in the discussion of writing our Constitution. Thomas Jefferson of Virginia wrote the Declaration of Independence while owning slaves. Blacks were not considered men, they were considered property of less moral value than a cow..

[Scott Lloyd]

21 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

And how I feel about repealing the amendment?

Bad idea.

Separation of church and state serves a *very* important purpose.

The push to repeal it is likely an executive grab for more power/support....religions beholden to the new executive. Generally not a good idea. Historically, a terrible/tragic idea.

 

So you want yourself and whatever group you lead/contribute to to be free to speak your mind in the political arena -- but you don't want churches and members thereof to enjoy the same freedom. Is that a correct restatement of your position?

Also, what does the phrase "separation of church and state" mean to you? More particularly, does it pertain to the state's position in relationship to churches or churches' position in relationship to the state?

Finally, how will repealing the Johnson Amendment make "religions beholden to the new executive"?

Edited February 10, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[thesometimesaint]

Because money is speech according to the USSC.

[emeliza]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

So you want yourself and whatever group you lead/contribute to to be free to speak your mind in the political arena -- but you don't want churches and members thereof to enjoy the same freedom. 

If the group has a 501(c)(3) status, they can speak out on political ideals, but not endorse candidates.  This is the same for any group or church.  

Members can endorse candidates, but it gets sticky if it is a leader in said organization.

I realize you don't agree, but how many times does this opinion need to get states that we like this law.

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Jesus doesn't care about apologetics, he wants you to preach the gospel. 

Also, why in the world would you imagine that you can speak for the messiah?

[Gray]

I'd be willing to give up my ability to publicly endorse political candidates in exchange for not having to pay taxes. Where do I sign up?

[MormonVideoGame]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Jesus is not obsessed with my downtime or hobbies.

which means you are doing your home teaching, sharing the Book of Mormon with your friends, helping others, reading your scriptures, magnifying your calling, and helping your Elders Quorum right? that is why you love religion correct?

[emeliza]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I'd be willing to give up my ability to publicly endorse political candidates in exchange for not having to pay taxes. Where do I sign up?

I think you also have to be a not for profit organization.  

[MormonVideoGame]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Measures of religiosity involve much more than just asking someone if they identify as a believer.

Yes I agree, asking "are you religious?" is very ambiguous. However, everybody knows that Japan, Sweden, Denmark, France, Germany, Canada are less religious (or at least less devout) than the USA, South American, and Africa. That is why I keep saying the most peaceful countries are less religious and non-authoritarian. 

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Your  maps aren't terribly consistent either.  One has Russia as least religious, the other in its motst religious category of 25 percent or less as agnostic, etc.  And one has China tested as its largest agnostic/atheist country while the other hasn't any data from it.

Yes, but Russia and China are irrelevant to what I am saying because both are authoritarian democracies. Russia has a history of indoctrinating people. 

[MormonVideoGame]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you want yourself and whatever group you lead/contribute to to be free to speak your mind in the political arena -- but you don't want churches and members thereof to enjoy the same freedom. Is that a correct restatement of your position?

No, I am a libertarian on social issues, I believe everyone has freedom of speech. However, the evidence shows that religion (or organized religion) isn't doing much to improve a country because less religious and non-authoritarian countries are more peaceful and prosperous. 

Also, having laws based on religious beliefs causes problems, like Idaho's law that you can't have sex before marriage for example. Or extreme anti-abortion laws in other countries. Or anti-gay laws in some states. 

[strappinglad]

authoritarian democracy ... hmm... sounds a bit like an oxymoron. By the way , the above chart numbers are suspect. Projecting 35 years into the future probably hasn't taken into account that global warming will have reduced the population along most coastlines by 50% by then.