stemelbow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, snowflake said: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10) So the LDS church is the church of the Lamb of God.....whoever belongeth not the the LDS church is the whore of all the earth.....I got it. And I thought that mean Jeffress was being intolerant.....cough.....cough....right. Fine enough point. why anyone gets upset when a non-LDS believer condemns Mormonism as wrong seems silly in light of how others have been viewed and are often viewed by LDS.
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, snowflake said: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10) So the LDS church is the church of the Lamb of God.....whoever belongeth not the the LDS church is the whore of all the earth.....I got it. And I thought that mean Jeffress was being intolerant.....cough.....cough....right. No, even those in the LDS church can be in the Church of the Devil. Just as those in other churches, or those that have never even heard of Jesus, can be in the Church of the Lamb of God.
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, thesometimesaint said: No, even those in the LDS church can be in the Church of the Devil. Just as those in other churches, or those that have never even heard of Jesus, can be in the Church of the Lamb of God. Even still, it can't be argued that the scripture doesn't promote the notion that all other folks, those wo aren't in this unseen Church, are the whore of the earth.
thesometimesaint Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, stemelbow said: Even still, it can't be argued that the scripture doesn't promote the notion that all other folks, those wo aren't in this unseen Church, are the whore of the earth. That's not what the Church says.
Calm Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Buckeye said: Orson Pratt and Bruce R. McConkie are not exactly outsiders. http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Great_and_abominable_church There was a lot of Protestant baggage brought into the Church by the former Protestant converts, I don't remember hearing of any of the early leaders being Catholic before their conversion. Not surprising, though sad, that part of this was antiCatholic feelings and beliefs, some of which still taint, imo, our doctrine...but it grows less over time, again, imo. McConkie likely changed his mind given what he wrote later. He might have seriously reconsidered when he was told he was in error by the Prophet or others of the Brethren. I see it as unlikely he would have lied about what he really thought. "This “great and abominable church” that Nephi saw does not represent one particular group, denomination, or church. Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles defined it as “all … organizations of whatever name or nature … which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137–38)." https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/1-nephi/unit-3-day-4-1-nephi-12-14?lang=eng Edited January 20, 2017 by Calm 1
snowflake Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Fine enough point. why anyone gets upset when a non-LDS believer condemns Mormonism as wrong seems silly in light of how others have been viewed and are often viewed by LDS. Agreed, both sides attack the other as wrong, which is fine. Getting upset by Jeffrees' view of Mormonism should not be a shock to the LDS. Just look at Joseph and Brigham's views of all non LDS churches, equally as intolerant. 1
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: That's not what the Church says. What does the Church say? The verse seems clear to say everyone not of the unseen Church of the Firstborn make up the other church which is the whore of all the earth.
snowflake Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Calm said: There was a lot of Protestant baggage brought into the Church by the former Protestant converts, I don't remember hearing of any of the early leaders being Catholic before their conversion. Not surprising, though sad, that part of this was antiCatholic feelings and beliefs, some of which still taint, imo, our doctrine...but it grows less over time, again, imo. McConkie likely changed his mind given what he wrote later. He might have seriously reconsidered when he was told he was in error by the Prophet or others of the Brethren. I see it as unlikely he would have lied about what he really thought. "This “great and abominable church” that Nephi saw does not represent one particular group, denomination, or church. Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles defined it as “all … organizations of whatever name or nature … which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137–38)." https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/1-nephi/unit-3-day-4-1-nephi-12-14?lang=eng And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10) Calm, simply put you are wrong, Nephi explains above. Two churches only....read the scripture for what it clearly says in context, this is a really easy one to get. You are LDS or not....that simple.
Popular Post Calm Posted January 20, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, snowflake said: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10) Calm, simply put you are wrong, Nephi explains above. Two churches only....read the scripture for what it clearly says in context, this is a really easy one to get. You are LDS or not....that simple. Where am I wrong? What I quoted has been consistently in our manuals for the last 50 years. It can hardly be "churches" as we currently understand the term since there are only two of them in all the earth and it is obvious, for example, that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same organization as the Baptist Church. If one actually reads the Book of Mormon for its definition of the GandA, it is obvious that it cannot be any specific organization that we can easily identify as none have dominion over the world. "The phrase "great and abominable church," which appears in an apocalyptic vision received by the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi 1 in the sixth century B.C. (1 Ne. 13:6), refers to the church of the devil and is understood by Latter-day Saints to be equivalent to the "great whore that sitteth upon many waters" described in Revelation 17:1. This "whore of all the earth" is identified by Nephi's brother Jacob as all those who are against God and who fight against Zion, in all periods of time (2 Ne. 10:16). Nephi did not write a detailed account of everything he saw in the vision, as this responsibility was reserved for John the apostle, who was to receive the same vision; however, Nephi repeatedly refers to its content and teachings, using various images and phrases (1 Ne. 13:4-9, 26-27, 34;14:1-4, 9-17)." http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Great_and_Abominable_Church What it likely means is that anyone, anywhere can choose to serve God or they can choose to serve the Devil by being among those who fit the definition. Not having a better word available, Joseph used "church" as an indicator of the form of worship people choose. Do we worship God in some form or do we actively reject him and choose Satan/Evil. If we are not actively choosing evil and we are attempting to do good to others even in feeble ways, God can work in us and bring us to him. Actively seeking evil/worshipping the Devil is defined by Nephi as described below: "They are those from all nations and all time periods who desire "to get gain, and…power over the flesh, and…to become popular in the eyes of the world,…who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity" (1 Ne. 22:23). Other scriptural terms related to the great and abominable church include "Babylon" and the "great harlot" (Rev. 17:5; 1 Ne. 22:13; D&C 1:16). Images of pride, greed, and covenant abandonment are associated with these terms, in sharp contrast to the church of God. The scriptures are consistent in warning people to flee from the church of evil and find refuge in the church of God (Jer. 51:6; Rev. 18:4; 1 Ne. 20:20; D&C 133:14; see also P. Minear, "Babylon," in Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, 1:338, Nashville, Tenn., 1962). The Book of Mormon image of a great and abominable church complements the biblical images of Babylon and the harlot." Edited January 20, 2017 by Calm 6
Buckeye Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 41 minutes ago, snowflake said: What church do you think the BOM refers to in 1 Nephi as the "great and abominable church".....I was raised on it being the Catholics. Personally, I believe its not so much an organized group as a label given to anyone who has received Christ, rejected him, and now strives with all their energies to fight against him. If LDS doctrine holds that "receiving" Christ requires baptism with LDS authority, then by definition no Catholic can be part of this group. Or at least, only Catholics who used to be LDS and who spend their days fighting against Christ. I live in a highly-Catholic town (most people assume I'm Catholic since I have a lot of kids running around the neighborhood). And I know a few former-LDS Catholics too (some on this board). From my experience, exactly 0 Catholics are part of the great and abominable church. 2
Buckeye Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Thanks for the link. That was quite a fawning flattering sermon. I'm sure Trump's ego just ate it up (maybe that's why he chose Jeffreess): I wonder what previous inaugural sermons have been like. I wonder who Romney would have chosen to give it and what that person would have said. I would bet a lot of money that a pastor speaking for a Romney inauguration would not make a claim that Romney was chosen by God. The evangelicals would explode. Edited January 20, 2017 by Buckeye 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Buckeye said: Orson Pratt and Bruce R. McConkie are not exactly outsiders. http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Great_and_abominable_church Cherry picked quotes notwithstanding, the institutional, authoritative church does not hold with that definition. And I'm surprised I should have to explain this to you. 2
Buckeye Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 40 minutes ago, Calm said: There was a lot of Protestant baggage brought into the Church by the former Protestant converts, I don't remember hearing of any of the early leaders being Catholic before their conversion. Not surprising, though sad, that part of this was antiCatholic feelings and beliefs, some of which still taint, imo, our doctrine...but it grows less over time, again, imo. McConkie likely changed his mind given what he wrote later. He might have seriously reconsidered when he was told he was in error by the Prophet or others of the Brethren. I see it as unlikely he would have lied about what he really thought. "This “great and abominable church” that Nephi saw does not represent one particular group, denomination, or church. Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles defined it as “all … organizations of whatever name or nature … which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137–38)." https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/1-nephi/unit-3-day-4-1-nephi-12-14?lang=eng Agreed. I actually like McConkie a lot. I wish he'd been more forceful in saying he was wrong about Catholics, but I agree that he likely changed his mind. If he'd been more upfront, perhaps there would be so many old farts in my HP Group who still believe McConkie's original ideas. As for anti-Catholic feelings, I'm still hoping for the day when crosses show back up in our services.
The Nehor Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: What church do you think the BOM refers to in 1 Nephi as the "great and abominable church".....I was raised on it being the Catholics. Unitarians. 2
Buckeye Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Cherry picked quotes notwithstanding, the institutional, authoritative church does not hold with that definition. And I'm surprised I should have to explain this to you. Scott, you're playing games. I didn't cite Pratt and McConkie as authoritative on church doctrine. I cited them as the source for the idea that Catholics are the great and abominable church. FAIR didn't cherry-pick those quotes. Those quotes (especially Mormon Doctrine) are highly representative of the sources that led many members to believe the tripe about Catholics. Since you said it was actually "outsiders" - I'll issue a CFR (which is pretty rare for me). I (and FAIR) have pointed to high-level LDS authorities who taught that Catholics were the great and abominable church referenced in the BOM. If that notion actually came from "outsiders" please give me a citation to even one such source. Personally, I've never seen an outsider preaching that LDS believe this idea except when doing so by quoting Mormon Doctrine. Edited January 20, 2017 by Buckeye 3
Calm Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Buckeye said: Agreed. I actually like McConkie a lot. I wish he'd been more forceful in saying he was wrong about Catholics, but I agree that he likely changed his mind. If he'd been more upfront, perhaps there would be so many old farts in my HP Group who still believe McConkie's original ideas. As for anti-Catholic feelings, I'm still hoping for the day when crosses show back up in our services. I am trying to think of any comparable symbol and the only one is the CTR shield. I have seen the cross used in Primary to represent several things, though it certainly isn't standard like the CTR symbol. I don't think it could show up naturally in other services and would be more of a statement of either "we have no problem with the cross", which imo would be inappropriate...it should just be stated or that "we are just like other Christian churches" which I think would be misleading. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: What church do you think the BOM refers to in 1 Nephi as the "great and abominable church".....I was raised on it being the Catholics. Whoever told you that was wrong.
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Quote 12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. 13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. 14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. I don't know. Who are the covenant people of the Lord? This doesnt' seem to match our day at all. I tend to interpret scripture far too loosely for this to mean much. All I can see is a vague metaphor here that could be interpreted to mean many things. That we've tried to codify it to suggest every other person not of the invisible Church of the Lamb is part of the Church of the devil seems silly to me. It's black and white thinking that I dont' think fits with reality very well.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Buckeye said: Scott, you're playing games. I didn't cite Pratt and McConkie as authoritative on church doctrine. I cited them as the source for the idea that Catholics are the great and abominable church. FAIR didn't cherry-pick those quotes. Those quotes (especially Mormon Doctrine) are highly representative of the sources that led many members to believe the tripe about Catholics. Since you said it was actually "outsiders" - I'll issue a CFR (which is pretty rare for me). I (and FAIR) have pointed to high-level LDS authorities who taught that Catholics were the great and abominable church referenced in the BOM. If that notion actually came from "outsiders" please give me a citation to even one such source. Personally, I've never seen an outsider preaching that LDS believe this idea except when doing so by quoting Mormon Doctrine. Cherry picking unauthoritative, oudated or out-of-context quotes contrary to the institutional position of the Church is a longtime strategy used by anti-Mormons. That doesn't negate the fact that they are outsiders, nor does it negate the fact that they are trying to distort the authoritative and institutional position of the Church. Edited January 20, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I don't know. Who are the covenant people of the Lord? This doesnt' seem to match our day at all. You have to ask who the covenant people of the Lord are? It is they who have entered into authentic covenants with Him and who earnestly strive to abide by those covenants. Quote I tend to interpret scripture far too loosely for this to mean much. All I can see is a vague metaphor here that could be interpreted to mean many things. That we've tried to codify it to suggest every other person not of the invisible Church of the Lamb is part of the Church of the devil seems silly to me. It's black and white thinking that I dont' think fits with reality very well. ON the contrary, it is black-and-white, unrealistic thinking that the church of the devil is one particular group when it is, in reality, an metaphorical designation for any who follow the devil or subject themselves to his influence in whatever manner or instance.
Tacenda Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 I see Pres. Trump maybe doing what some bishops have in my observations of them throughout the years. He'll hopefully rise to the occasion. 1
Calm Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) I am hoping that too. I have been preoccupied lately with family needs so haven't been studying the political scene much outside of these controversies. All I have seen are recitations where his choices, like this one of a pastor known for promoting division, do not appear to me to be healing, but more negative. Any actual actions or choices of his that hint of better things to come? Edited January 20, 2017 by Calm 1
Buckeye Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Cherry picking quotes contrary to the institutional position of the Church is a longtime strategy used by anti-Mormons. That doesn't negate the fact that they are outsiders, nor does it negate the fact that they are trying to distort the authoritative and institutional position of the Church. So to be clear, the "outsiders" you're referring to are anti-Mormons who "cherry-pick" quotes by LDS apostles to say that the church believes something it does not? I'm cool with that. I'm sure they do. But from your previous post it seemed that you were blaming the outsiders for creating the misinformation, rather than just misusing LDS sources that are not authoritative (like Mormon Doctrine).
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You have to ask who the covenant people of the Lord are? It is they who have entered into authentic covenants with Him and who earnestly strive to abide by those covenants. And I'd wager nearly everyone has entered into some sort of covenant with Him. So, it makes me wonder why we think this predicts our day in any reasonable sense. 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: ON the contrary, it is black-and-white, unrealistic thinking that the church of the devil is one particular group when it is, in reality, an metaphorical designation for any who follow the devil or subject themselves to his influence in whatever manner or instance. I dont' think the Church of the devil is one particular group.
Buckeye Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, Calm said: I am hoping that too. I have been preoccupied lately with family needs so haven't been studying the political scene much outside of these controversies. All I have seen are recitations where his choices, like this one of a pasto known for promoting division, do not appear to me to be healing, but more negative. Any actual actions or choices of his that hint of better things to come? In his speech today, he said that all drug use would end immediately, today. That's pretty good news.
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