The Question that always plagued me; Is God a gracious loser?

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I don't frustrate myself (unless you do). I rather enjoy the information I receive here. I have no intention of converting anybody, just curious how you react the facts of science and reality.

I respect your choice to approach reality in the way you do. I do not appreciate what seems to be an arrogant presumption on the part of some atheists that their materialistic way of approaching reality and truth is the only reliable and worthwhile approach. Even when I was an atheist, I was intellectually honest enough with myself to admit in a universe filled with so much wonder, mystery and so many profound unanswered questions, that I comprehended only a very small portion of the truths that could potentially be known. And I also believed the universe might one day very well reveal a great many unexpected answers and mind-boggling surprises that none could have ever imagined. And now I believe this is exactly what's going to happen when God comes out of his hiding place and reveals himself. When that day comes, I believe many scientists will be humbled to the dust and continually ask themselves how they could have been so presumptuous based on so little information.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[thesometimesaint]

There might be a few that are humbled to the dust. But the ones I know are more than humble enough to know we don't know near enough to posit any God or Godlike force onto science. 

[Bobbieaware]

28 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I said nothing to suggest that it was God's fault or that he suffered pangs of conscience.  Those are your words, not mine.  Here's what I said, and it is accurate:

I know of no reason whatever to imagine that the denizens of Perdition - Outer  will ever be rehabilitated.  They made their free choice and it is final.

Based on the following, it seems there is much mystery associated with the ultimate fate of sons of perdition and there are none but God who really know what that fate is.

 45 And the end (of the sons of perdition) thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

 46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

 47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

 48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation. (D&C 76)

Based on the obvious  mystery and many unanswered questions associated with the fate of the sons of perdition (as well as the fact that D&C 19 says eternal punishment and endless punishment do not necessarily go on forever), I am caused to wonder. Additionally, Doctrine & Covenants 88 says Christ descended BELOW ALL THINGS in his suffering for sin. And since the sons of perdition are are surely numbered among the things that Christ descended below, one wonders why he needed to descend in suffering for sin EVEN LOWER than the sons of perdition? What was the purpose of Christ suffering for sin at the level of the son's of perdition? Again, if Christ descended in suffering for sin at the level of the sons of perdition, and then descended in suffering even below the very depths of the sinfulness of the sons of perdition, one wonders why it was required of him?

Two questions:. Do you believe God will ever stop loving his sons and daughters who are in perdition? And if he will always love them , will he continue to weep and lament for them forever?

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You again misunderstand what I am saying (and what Mormon theology insists upon):  Raising the dead or walking on water are not miracles or supernatural events, any more than reading the Book of Mormon translation off a stone-in-a-hat is magic.  Why?  Because they are all part of the natural universe, just as surely as we can read text on an LED screen on our solid-state electronic device (especially if we put it in a hat).  This is just the sort of thing we see every day in our lives now, even if it was rare in Joseph's time.

Indeed, there is no reason why a resolute humanistic atheist could not be a good Mormon -- even though that might raise suspicion among fellow members.

Just because you say they are natural it don't make it so; what is natural about waling on the water? Have you seen anybody doing that lately? If you are going that far you should believe Uri Geller, who claimed of bending spoons, who BTW was exposed by our (one & only skeptic) James Randi, who is also an atheist.

You cannot equate those charlatanism with solid state electronics or led screens....

Edited January 17, 2017 by Atheist Mormon

[Stargazer]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 1:20 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

Or He does not lose at all his fights against Satan? Or is it blaspheme to entertain such a notion? We Humans have very little to go about establishing any type of facts....Except maybe His famous and lengthy joust with Satan when he threw Job like a thousand dollars chip on the table; "Try this one Satan for a bet". Sure enough not matter how Satan utilized the last trick on his sleeve he surely lost. Job came out unscratched. 

So far we indulged the 'fun" part of this. if there's interest.....I will ask the second, chilling part II of God's act.

You don't believe that God exists, right?  Therefore, any discussion of God's purposes is for you a question of how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.  You don't care if the answer is 2 or 2,000, because to you the answer is meaningless.  It's like division by zero -- it's undefined.  So why do you even bother asking about God's win/loss record with Satan?  

Are you recruiting for your point of view?  Would it make you happier if you manage to convert someone here to be a Mormon atheist?  Are you field-testing arguments that you can use to recruit on a larger scale for your atheist viewpoint?  Are you using this board to relieve yourself of boredom by having stimulating conversations with other intelligent people?  Or are you hoping to find someone who can convince you that God really does exist, and that there is an actual reason for your existence aside from meaningless random chance?  All the above?

I am genuinely interested to know your purpose here.

EDITED TO ADD: Nevermind about your purpose here -- you answered it on page 2.  You're here for the interesting conversations.  And that's as good a reason as any.

I do find you frustrating, however.  There's no answer for you unless it is couched in peer-reviewed scientific inquiry, and the subject of God is not discoverable through that lens.  Therefore, all we're doing is arguing how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, or what it means to divide by zero.  Fun and games, I guess.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Stargazer

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I do find you frustrating, however.  There's no answer for you unless it is couched in peer-reviewed scientific inquiry, and the subject of God is not discoverable through that lens.  Therefore, all we're doing is arguing how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, or what it means to divide by zero.  Fun and games, I guess.

True peer-review is the the quickest ways to reach reality of facts. However your experiences are your own, nobody can take them away from you. 

[Guest]

On January 14, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

Or He does not lose at all his fights against Satan? Or is it blaspheme to entertain such a notion? We Humans have very little to go about establishing any type of facts....Except maybe His famous and lengthy joust with Satan when he threw Job like a thousand dollars chip on the table; "Try this one Satan for a bet". Sure enough not matter how Satan utilized the last trick on his sleeve he surely lost. Job came out unscratched. 

So far we indulged the 'fun" part of this. if there's interest.....I will ask the second, chilling part II of God's act.

Not sure how he could be a loser. He knows all things, and all things are before him, the past, the present, and the future. Simply put, he knows the beginning from the ending. All that he doe, is use "the word" (scripture) to entice the lost to find their way out of darkness. He uses "The Word" (Jesus Christ) along with the Holy Ghost to show all how to live, so that those who choose to be lost, do so by their own will.

The blind, they see no colors,

The deaf they here no voice.

Halt, not by birth it seems,

But rather so, by choice! 

 

 

[JAHS]

On 1/14/2017 at 5:20 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

Sure enough not matter how Satan utilized the last trick on his sleeve he surely lost. Job came out unscratched. 

Job came out unscratched? Even though he got back everything times seven I doubt he would agree he was unscratched in the process ;-)

[Atheist Mormon]

38 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Job came out unscratched? Even though he got back everything times seven I doubt he would agree he was unscratched in the process ;-)

So, you think Job came ahead in the process?

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I respect your choice to approach reality in the way you do. I do not appreciate what seems to be an arrogant presumption on the part of some atheists that their materialistic way of approaching reality and truth is the only reliable and worthwhile approach. Even when I was an atheist, I was intellectually honest enough with myself to admit in a universe filled with so much wonder, mystery and so many profound unanswered questions, that I comprehended only a very small portion of the truths that could potentially be known. And I also believed the universe might one day very well reveal a great many unexpected answers and mind-boggling surprises that none could have ever imagined. And now I believe this is exactly what's going to happen when God comes out of his hiding place and reveals himself. When that day comes, I believe many scientists will be humbled to the dust and continually ask themselves how they could have been so presumptuous based on so little information.

It's nice to know that when you were an atheist you were open to being in error.   It seems though you have now totally lost that fine attribute.  Too bad. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Teancum

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

So, you think Job came ahead in the process?

If even the strongest man went through the horrific ordeal Job had to endure, it's more than likely he would be emotionally traumatized and physically scared. Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome would be a very strong likelihood. That is unless, like Alma the younger, the power of God fully healed him.

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

So, you think Job came ahead in the process?

Eventually he did. I think one interesting observation in his story is that we are told that he had seven sons and three daughters (Job 1:2). He also had 7000 sheep, 3000 camels, etc. At the end of his life we are told that God gave him double of what he had before it was all destroyed; 14,000 sheep, 6000 camels, etc,(Job 42: 10-12) but he was only given 7 more sons and 3 more daughters (Job 42:13), instead of 14 more sons and 6 more daughters. This only makes sense if God considered Job's marriage and family to be an eternal one. Both Job and God knew he still had the original sons and daughters even though they were dead. Add these to the new ones and it means they truly were doubled and so in the end he does come out ahead.

[Atheist Mormon]

9 hours ago, JAHS said:

Eventually he did. I think one interesting observation in his story is that we are told that he had seven sons and three daughters (Job 1:2). He also had 7000 sheep, 3000 camels, etc. At the end of his life we are told that God gave him double of what he had before it was all destroyed; 14,000 sheep, 6000 camels, etc,(Job 42: 10-12) but he was only given 7 more sons and 3 more daughters (Job 42:13), instead of 14 more sons and 6 more daughters. This only makes sense if God considered Job's marriage and family to be an eternal one. Both Job and God knew he still had the original sons and daughters even though they were dead. Add these to the new ones and it means they truly were doubled and so in the end he does come out ahead.

So you are counting materiel goods he owned before his first wife of years & kids...Very interesting. 

Are you saying The Family could be replaceable with a new sets of wife & Kids? Because this is exactly what happened in narrative.

[snowflake]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 11:20 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

No, I have a problem to create a species and empowering them to destroy themselves.....Why would I do that? I wouldn't create humans and give them nuclear bombs as free agency....why would I do that?

The second part of my follow up question was exactly along the same lines......Why would I create humans on a tectonically active, lethal place and let Tsunami take their lives? It just doesn't make sense....

The only theory/fact does make sense is the Evolution the way Darwin explained, which is a design but not an intelligent one.

Evidence for an intelligent designer.

1. DNA is a code.

2 All codes we know the origin of are designed.

3. Therefore DNA is designed. 

4. Space + Time + Matter cannot create a code, intelligence is a requirement for a code.  

[snowflake]

6 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Evidence for an intelligent designer.

1. DNA is a code.

2 All codes we know the origin of are designed.

3. Therefore DNA is designed. 

4. Space + Time + Matter cannot create a code, intelligence is a requirement for a code.  

Where did the information in the DNA code come from?  Here are a few possibilities.

1.  Designed by humans

2.  Designed by aliens

3. Product of chance

4. Undiscovered product of physics

5. God designed it.

 

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Where did the information in the DNA code come from?  Here are a few possibilities.

1.  Designed by humans

2.  Designed by aliens

3. Product of chance

4. Undiscovered product of physics

5. God designed it.

 

None of the above......Evolution already explained it. (Thank you Darwin) 

None of the above (except #3) is taught in any credible, accredited learning institution. This don't mean (I discount entirely) your possibilities. After all there & other claims I have to give credence; Chuppacabra, alien abductions, remote sensing, communication with dead and many others.....

Edited January 18, 2017 by Atheist Mormon

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

So you are counting materiel goods he owned before his first wife of years & kids...Very interesting. 

Are you saying The Family could be replaceable with a new sets of wife & Kids? Because this is exactly what happened in narrative.

No, I put his family at the end for dramatic effect. The family is not replaceable just added upon. 

[snowflake]

12 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

None of the above......Evolution already explained it. (Thank you Darwin) 

None of the above (except #3) is taught in any credible, accredited learning institution. This don't mean (I discount entirely) your possibilities. After all there & other claims I have to give credence; Chuppacabra, alien abductions, remote sensing, communication with dead and many others.....

Darwin's explanation is natural selection. This mechanism (natural selection) to put it simply, is grossly inadequate for the origin of any code whatsoever.

You disregard an intelligent designer as impossible, but accept randomness as the originator of a code?  Intelligence cannot come from randomness, this has never been observed, verified, or proven possible in a lab or mathematically.  #3 is a massive leap of faith, it is not science.

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Darwin's explanation is natural selection. This mechanism (natural selection) to put it simply, is grossly inadequate for the origin of any code whatsoever.

You disregard an intelligent designer as impossible, but accept randomness as the originator of a code?  Intelligence cannot come from randomness, this has never been observed, verified, or proven possible in a lab or mathematically.  #3 is a massive leap of faith, it is not science.

In Mormonism, ultimately there is no such thing as intelligent design.

[snowflake]

50 minutes ago, Gray said:

In Mormonism, ultimately there is no such thing as intelligent design.

Please explain, I was under the impression that the "intelligences" were organized?

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Please explain, I was under the impression that the "intelligences" were organized?

The intelligences, or spirits, were in the beginning with God. So we always existed, meaning we have no creator as such. It's unclear what "organized" means, and it's never defined. Did the spirits of animals also exist in the beginning? Unclear, but seems in keeping with the doctrine. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Gray

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

No, I put his family at the end for dramatic effect. The family is not replaceable just added upon. 

So, he got shafted in a grand way.

[JAHS]

34 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

No, I put his family at the end for dramatic effect. The family is not replaceable just added upon. 

So, he got shafted in a grand way.

Huh?  I guess so if you don't like having more children.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

......................................................................  

Two questions:. Do you believe God will ever stop loving his sons and daughters who are in perdition? And if he will always love them , will he continue to weep and lament for them forever?

No and yes.

[Bobbieaware]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

No and yes.

Good enough for me.