The Question that always plagued me; Is God a gracious loser?

[Bobbieaware]

46 minutes ago, emeliza said:

My confusion wasn't in lacking to quote you.  It was in thinking you were the original poster instead of going back and reading the whole thread again.

 

I figured that was the case.

 

[thesometimesaint]

17 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Or He does not lose at all his fights against Satan? Or is it blaspheme to entertain such a notion? We Humans have very little to go about establishing any type of facts....Except maybe His famous and lengthy joust with Satan when he threw Job like a thousand dollars chip on the table; "Try this one Satan for a bet". Sure enough not matter how Satan utilized the last trick on his sleeve he surely lost. Job came out unscratched. 

So far we indulged the 'fun" part of this. if there's interest.....I will ask the second, chilling part II of God's act.

God doesn't lose. We choose whom we will follow, to the heights of Heaven or depths of outer darkness.

[smac97]

23 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Or He does not lose at all his fights against Satan? Or is it blaspheme to entertain such a notion? We Humans have very little to go about establishing any type of facts....Except maybe His famous and lengthy joust with Satan when he threw Job like a thousand dollars chip on the table; "Try this one Satan for a bet". Sure enough not matter how Satan utilized the last trick on his sleeve he surely lost. Job came out unscratched. 

So far we indulged the 'fun" part of this. if there's interest.....I will ask the second, chilling part II of God's act.

I think this statement by Hugh Nibley aptly summarizes things:

Quote

“God does not fight Satan: a word from him and Satan is silenced and banished. There is no contest there; in fact we are expressly told that all the power which Satan enjoys here on earth is granted him by God. “We will allow Satan, our common enemy, to try man and to tempt him.” It is man’s strength that is being tested—not God’s”. — Hugh Nibley, “Beyond Politics,” 288

So no, God does not "lose."  There is no contest between Him and the adversary.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

21 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No, I have a problem to create a species and empowering them to destroy themselves.....Why would I do that? I wouldn't create humans and give them nuclear bombs as free agency....why would I do that?

The second part of my follow up question was exactly along the same lines......Why would I create humans on a tectonically active, lethal place and let Tsunami take their lives? It just doesn't make sense....

The only theory/fact does make sense is the Evolution the way Darwin explained, which is a design but not an intelligent one.

I think the broad precepts underlying the Plan of Salvation answer your question (to the extent your question is answerable).  Here are a few thoughts:

1. We believe in the endurance of existence.  That is, we lived before we came here, and will continue to exist after we "die" after having lived in this world.  This life is only a miniscule blip in the eternal scheme of things.  This, in my view, substantially mitigates blinkered assumptions about God being "cruel" or whatnot.  If this life were all there is, then letting lives be prematurely snuffed out by a tsunami might allow you to have a point.  But if this life is not all there is, then the fleeting nature of suffering is startling when contrasted with the enduring joys and beauties which will be given us in the kingdoms of glory that await us.  "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

2. We believe that God is "perfect."  I don't think we can fully comprehend what this means, but we can approximate it to some extent.  We can conceive of things like kindness and mercy and benevolence and parental love.  We can then extrapolate that God has these attributes.  This, in my view, undermines blinkered, ignorant suppositions about God being some sort of malicious, capricious, arbitrary, Zeus-like jerk.  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

3. We believe that we have a special relationship with God.  All other things are His creation, but we are emphatically His children.  Again, we can extrapolate a bit.  Most of us can conceptualize of the difference between how a parent feels about a possession or a pet or whatnot, and how a parent feels about a child.  This, in my view, goes a long way in helping us understand why God treats humanity differently than He treats everything else.  We have sentience in ways that His other creations do not.  We have agency in ways His other creations do not.  We will be held accountable for our actions in ways His other creations will not.  We have the potential to progress in ways His other creations do not.  We therefore have responsibilities in ways His other creations do not.  "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

4. We believe that God has a a plan for us, one that involves "improvement and progression."  Such a plan apparently requires "opposition in all things."  And as a consequence of that opposition comes, to some extent, suffering.  Some of that suffering comes in the form of "chastening" from God.  "And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."  But such suffering is not for eternity, and not beyond our ability to endure.  And to the extent what we suffer because of wickedness or injustice or even seemingly random happenstance, God will make all things right.  "My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."  "For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."  "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by smac97

[CV75]

On 1/14/2017 at 8:20 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

We Humans

It is pronounced... Hoo-mons.

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think this statement by Hugh Nibley aptly summarizes things:

So no, God does not "lose."  There is no contest between Him and the adversary.

Thanks,

-Smac

His Creations (from animals to humans) might disagree you on that point.

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

His Creations (from animals to humans) might disagree you on that point.

Well, yes.  There is no universal consensus about the nature of God, the purpose of life, the meaning of suffering, etc.

But the LDS Church presents a paradigm and invites us to examine and consider it.  Within that paradigm, there are answers to your questions.  And I think those answers make a lot of sense.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Atheist Mormon]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

Well, yes.  There is no universal consensus about the nature of God, the purpose of life, the meaning of suffering, etc.

But the LDS Church presents a paradigm and invites us to examine and consider it.  Within that paradigm, there are answers to your questions.  And I think those answers make a lot of sense.

Thanks,

-Smac

I see you hit the crux of the issue. The paradigms you speak of are based on supernatural resources (therefore totally invented), there's no science behind them, no possibility of testing because there's nothing to experiment on. The best example is prayer; believers claim prayers heal or help people get out of their problems, how can we prove that, if anything, looking at reality they don't.....

You build this huge conglomerate called Catholicism which dominated the planet centuries long, two thousand years later we decide it is not good for us, another opportunist seizes the moment and voila;; we have a Mormon Church with totally different rituals, symbols and cathedrals.....The facts is they are all "House of Cards", no power behind them, either supernatural or magical.

If anything I could probably believe powers of David Copperfield, I love to watch the guy materialize a spaceship from thin air.....The sad part is though David does not appeal in Supernatural powers...otherwise I'm sure he'd have many believers.

[rodheadlee]

34 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I see you hit the crux of the issue. The paradigms you speak of are based on supernatural resources (therefore totally invented), there's no science behind them, no possibility of testing because there's nothing to experiment on. The best example is prayer; believers claim prayers heal or help people get out of their problems, how can we prove that, if anything, looking at reality they don't.....

You build this huge conglomerate called Catholicism which dominated the planet centuries long, two thousand years later we decide it is not good for us, another opportunist seizes the moment and voila;; we have a Mormon Church with totally different rituals, symbols and cathedrals.....The facts is they are all "House of Cards", no power behind them, either supernatural or magical.

If anything I could probably believe powers of David Copperfield, I love to watch the guy materialize a spaceship from thin air.....The sad part is though David does not appeal in Supernatural powers...otherwise I'm sure he'd have many believers.

You have to live it and prove it to yourself. No one can do it for you.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I see you hit the crux of the issue. The paradigms you speak of are based on supernatural resources (therefore totally invented),

First, and with respect, I do not think "supernatural" is an apt description of the LDS paradigm.  We believe that God is the author and creator of nature, and therefore of natural laws.  He does not operate above or outside ("super") those laws.  His actions are simply a higher manifestation of them.  Arthur C. Clark wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  I often think of this quote when folks characterize God as being "supernatural."  In terms of what God is and how He operates, we are operating within intellectual confines comparable to, say, two Rhesus monkeys in different locations interacting with each other through a Skype session.  They see each other on the computer screens, and they can hear each other, but they have no ability to comprehend how the whole thing works (electricity, the Internet, the hardware involved, etc.).  To them, it is "magic."  It's not, really.  And their inability to comprehend it speaks more to their limitations and ignorance than to the reality of how Skyping actually works.

Second, your parenthetical statement ("therefore totally invented") is not axiomatic.  It is simply an unproven assertion.

Quote

there's no science behind them,

There's no "science" behind LDS paradigms (truth claims)?  Okay, I will own that.  But then, the atheistic paradigm is also bereft of "science."  It's not like the existence of God is proven, or even disprovable through "science."

Quote

no possibility of testing because there's nothing to experiment on.

With respect, I disagree.  I think the truth claims of the LDS Church are testable.  That's what Moroni's Promise is all about.

Now, are these truth claims testable, or falsifiable, using the Scientific Method?  I think not.  But lots and lots of things are not testable under such methodology.  The Scientific Method has its place in our world, but it is not the be all end all in the pursuit of truth.

Quote

The best example is prayer; believers claim prayers heal or help people get out of their problems, how can we prove that, if anything, looking at reality they don't.....

So believers assert, on faith, that prayers help, and you assert, also on faith, that they don't.  Even stevens.

Quote

You build this huge conglomerate called Catholicism which dominated the planet centuries long, two thousand years later we decide it is not good for us, another opportunist seizes the moment and voila;; we have a Mormon Church with totally different rituals, symbols and cathedrals.....The facts is they are all "House of Cards", no power behind them, either supernatural or magical.

See the above quote about Arthur C. Clarke.

You're descending into ridicule and scorn now.  I'll leave you to it.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by smac97

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

First, and with respect, I do not think "supernatural" is an apt description of the LDS paradigm.  We believe that God is the author and creator of nature, and therefore of natural laws.  He does not operate above or outside ("super") those laws.  His actions are simply a higher manifestation of them.  Arthur C. Clark wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  I often think of this quote when folks characterize God as being "supernatural."  In terms of what God is and how He operates, we are operating within intellectual confines comparable to, say, two Rhesus monkeys in different locations interacting with each other through a Skype session.  They see each other on the computer screens, and they can hear each other, but they have no ability to comprehend how the whole thing works (electricity, the Internet, the hardware involved, etc.).  To them, it is "magic."  It's not, really.  And their inability to comprehend it speaks more to their limitations and ignorance than to the reality of how Skyping actually works.

Second, your parenthetical statement ("therefore totally invented") is not axiomatic.  It is simply an unproven assertion.

There's no "science" behind LDS paradigms (truth claims)?  Okay, I will own that.  But then, the atheistic paradigm is also bereft of "science."  It's not like the existence of God is proven, or even disprovable through "science."

With respect, I disagree.  I think the truth claims of the LDS Church are testable.  That's what Moroni's Promise is all about.

Now, are these truth claims testable, or falsifiable, using the Scientific Method?  I think not.  But lots and lots of things are not testable under such methodology.  The Scientific Method has its place in our world, but it is not the be all end all in the pursuit of truth.

So believers assert, on faith, that prayers help, and you assert, also on faith, that they don't.  Even stevens.

See the above quote about Arthur C. Clarke.

You're descending into ridicule and scorn now.  I'll leave you to it.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I still don't see any verifiable. ascertainable anything in your answers. I don't know why would you so keen on repeating Arthur C Clarke's famous sentence; does it strengthen your point on veracity of any deity? What else I should use to identify God's miracle other than "Supernatural"? God definitely does not wait 25 million years to create humans as Darwin so eloquently outlines in "Origin of Species"? "Higher Manifestations of what?" Like raising of dead, walking on the water? separating the water so people walk through it? All of these manifestations are "Supernatural" because they don't happen (if ever), you claim of "the atheistic paradigm is also bereft of "science."   Well, 99.9 % atheists would disagree with that, all they know is science. 

Again the major elements you point as testable are totally irrelevant; Moroni's pledge is appealing on emotion, to give you a testable example would be something like "Black Holes Evaporate" hypothesized decades ago by Hawking, not because Hawking's  extraordinary (not supernatural) claim more believable because it was testable. 

Finally; I don't know where you get the ideas of "scorn", "ridicule"? I feel none of it here.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 1/14/2017 at 8:40 PM, Bobbieaware said:

.........................................................................

But even in the case of the sons of perdition it's inaccurate to say God lost a battle because it's the sons of perdition themselves who, as free agents, refuse to receive the eternal blessings freely extended to all mankind through the sufferings, death, resurrection, and infinite and eternal victory of the Lord Jesus Christ. So why all the spookiness and gloom?

Moses 7:26-31, 36-41,,

Quote

26 And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced.
27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.
28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?
29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?
30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;
31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

* * * * * 

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.
37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?
38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.
39 And that which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;
40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.
41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.

In a universe in which free will is the norm, of course God can lose, and he can also weep. The losses are real.  One-third of the host of heaven have already gone to the other side.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I see you hit the crux of the issue. The paradigms you speak of are based on supernatural resources (therefore totally invented), there's no science behind them, no possibility of testing because there's nothing to experiment on. The best example is prayer; believers claim prayers heal or help people get out of their problems, how can we prove that, if anything, looking at reality they don't.....

You build this huge conglomerate called Catholicism which dominated the planet centuries long, two thousand years later we decide it is not good for us, another opportunist seizes the moment and voila;; we have a Mormon Church with totally different rituals, symbols and cathedrals.....The facts is they are all "House of Cards", no power behind them, either supernatural or magical.

If anything I could probably believe powers of David Copperfield, I love to watch the guy materialize a spaceship from thin air.....The sad part is though David does not appeal in Supernatural powers...otherwise I'm sure he'd have many believers.

Mormon theology rejects supernaturalism and magic, and instead opts for natural law as the fundamental basis of all -- a natural God, a natural universe, in which humans are merely the genus and species of God.  You don't see Mormons engaging in snake-handling or in Las Vegas style "magic."  You have missed the point, Athiest.  You have confused Mormonism with traditional Christianity, which (like Judaism and Islam) is based on supernaturalism.

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Mormon theology rejects supernaturalism and magic, and instead opts for natural law as the fundamental basis of all -- a natural God, a natural universe, in which humans are merely the genus and species of God.  You don't see Mormons engaging in snake-handling or in Las Vegas style "magic."  You have missed the point, Athiest.  You have confused Mormonism with traditional Christianity, which (like Judaism and Islam) is based on supernaturalism.

No, you missed it...In fact I wrote so plainly and yet you chose to equate my description of "Supernatural" with "Snake handling" or "Magic". I used examples of NT., raising of dead, walking on the water...What is a better description for this events, if we don't see in our lives, ever? 

Again, I don't confuse Mormonism and Christianity, I understand both perspectives only too well. 

[Bobbieaware]

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Moses 7:26-31, 36-41,,

In a universe in which free will is the norm, of course God can lose, and he can also weep. The losses are real.  One-third of the host of heaven have already gone to the other side.

God's kingdom and eternal purposes cannot be overthrown nor frustrated, even in the least. And in Christ's atonement there is a complete and total victory over physical death, spiritual death, the devil, and sin. If some of the Lord's children utterly refuse to avail themselves of the blessings of that infinite and eternal victory, it's not God's fault. In fact, God does anything and everything a perfect being can do to save his children, even going so far as to make and infinite and eternal sacrifice of incomprehensible suffering thatbbrought him down to a place of darkness even lower than the depths of hell. Yes, God does all an eternally perfect being can do to save his children, and demonstrate to them in the most powerful possible way how perfectly he loves them. For all these reasons, God cannot be faulted, even in the slightest, if he loses any of his children because it is they who have GIVEN UP ON HIM.

Because of all the Father does for the everlasting benefit of his children, he does not suffer from pangs of conscience that he could have done more because there is no more that can be done than an infinite and eternal sacrifice of love and devotion. And when he weeps so bitterly for the lost, it's a sure sign that even though they have completely given up on him he still loves them with the perfect love of an ideal Father.

And here's the key: I believe it's very likely even those who will be cast into outer darkness at the final judgment will eventually find relief and release from their sorrows because his perfect sacrificial love for them will never die, world's without end. And I believe it's highly likely that when the fullness of the vision in Doctrine and Covenants 76 is finally revealed we will learn the day of mercy will even be extended to them. Why am I so emboldened to say such a controversial thing? It's because, as the apostle Paul so beautifully testified, charity NEVER FAILETH. Or in other words, the pure love of Christ for God's children will never ever be defeated.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

Duplicate 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Atheist Mormon]

10 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

God's kingdom and eternal purposes cannot be overthrown nor frustrated,

What Kingdom are you talking about? In a universe with over hundred billion galaxies with zero intelligent species to observe (outside Earth), we cannot even amount to a size of neutron in whole universe. 

[Bobbieaware]

27 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What Kingdom are you talking about? In a universe with over hundred billion galaxies with zero intelligent species to observe (outside Earth), we cannot even amount to a size of neutron in whole universe. 

Enjoy yourself believing existence and life are accidental and meaningless. I was once just like you, until the Spirit opened my eyes. It will ever be so that the natural man will esteem the things of God to be ridiculous and foolish. So be it.

[Atheist Mormon]

49 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Enjoy yourself believing existence and life are accidental and meaningless. I was once just like you, until the Spirit opened my eyes. It will ever be so that the natural man will esteem the things of God to be ridiculous and foolish. So be it.

Did you read what I wrote? We humans occupy a planet not even a single mass-less neutron sized compared to Universe. What kingdom are you talking about? 

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I still don't see any verifiable. ascertainable anything in your answers. I don't know why would you so keen on repeating Arthur C Clarke's famous sentence; does it strengthen your point on veracity of any deity? What else I should use to identify God's miracle other than "Supernatural"? God definitely does not wait 25 million years to create humans as Darwin so eloquently outlines in "Origin of Species"? "Higher Manifestations of what?" Like raising of dead, walking on the water? separating the water so people walk through it? All of these manifestations are "Supernatural" because they don't happen (if ever), you claim of "the atheistic paradigm is also bereft of "science."   Well, 99.9 % atheists would disagree with that, all they know is science. 

Again the major elements you point as testable are totally irrelevant; Moroni's pledge is appealing on emotion, to give you a testable example would be something like "Black Holes Evaporate" hypothesized decades ago by Hawking, not because Hawking's  extraordinary (not supernatural) claim more believable because it was testable. 

Finally; I don't know where you get the ideas of "scorn", "ridicule"? I feel none of it here.

Some 40% of all American scientists are Theists.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Did you read what I wrote? We humans occupy a planet not even a single mass-less neutron sized compared to Universe. What kingdom are you talking about? 

Why do you expect others -- especially faithful believers on an LDS Church discussion board -- to accept, as settled truth, your atheistic and "modern science as the be all and end all to obtaining truth" paradigm? And why do you frustrate yourself by debating with people who believe divine revelation is another legitimate way of obtaining truth, something that you utterly reject? Is it possible part of you still sees the beauty and logic of the Restored Gospel and you don't know what to do about it?

As to your question, the kingdoms I am talking about are the ones spoken of by the mouth of God and the prophets in the scriptures. The following passages came forth from the mouth of God himself:

 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

 34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

 35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

 36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

 37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

 38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. (Moses 1)

[Atheist Mormon]

37 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

And why do you frustrate yourself by debating with people who believe divine revelation is another legitimate way of obtaining truth, something that you utterly reject? 

I don't frustrate myself (unless you do). I rather enjoy the information I receive here. I have no intention of converting anybody, just curious how you react the facts of science and reality.

[thesometimesaint]

32 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I don't frustrate myself (unless you do). I rather enjoy the information I receive here. I have no intention of converting anybody, just curious how you react the facts of science and reality.

I think that if you take an absolutist position on science and/or religion you are going to be disappointed.

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No, you missed it...In fact I wrote so plainly and yet you chose to equate my description of "Supernatural" with "Snake handling" or "Magic". I used examples of NT., raising of dead, walking on the water...What is a better description for this events, if we don't see in our lives, ever? 

Again, I don't confuse Mormonism and Christianity, I understand both perspectives only too well. 

You again misunderstand what I am saying (and what Mormon theology insists upon):  Raising the dead or walking on water are not miracles or supernatural events, any more than reading the Book of Mormon translation off a stone-in-a-hat is magic.  Why?  Because they are all part of the natural universe, just as surely as we can read text on an LED screen on our solid-state electronic device (especially if we put it in a hat).  This is just the sort of thing we see every day in our lives now, even if it was rare in Joseph's time.

Indeed, there is no reason why a resolute humanistic atheist could not be a good Mormon -- even though that might raise suspicion among fellow members.

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

God's kingdom and eternal purposes cannot be overthrown nor frustrated, even in the least. And in Christ's atonement there is a complete and total victory over physical death, spiritual death, the devil, and sin. If some of the Lord's children utterly refuse to avail themselves of the blessings of that infinite and eternal victory, it's not God's fault. In fact, God does anything and everything a perfect being can do to save his children, even going so far as to make and infinite and eternal sacrifice of incomprehensible suffering broughthim down to a place of darkness even lower than the depths of hell. Yes, God does all an eternally perfect being can do to save his children, and demonstrate to them in the most powerful possible way how perfectly he loves them. For all these reasons, God cannot be faulted, even in the slightest, if he loses any of his children because it is they who have GIVEN UP ON HIM.

Because of all the Father does for the everlasting benefit of his children, he does not suffer from pangs of conscience that he could have done more because there is no more that can be done than an infinite and eternal sacrifice of love and devotion. And when he weeps so bitterly for the lost, it's a sure sign that even though they have completely given up on him he still loves them with the perfect love of an ideal Father.

I said nothing to suggest that it was God's fault or that he suffered pangs of conscience.  Those are your words, not mine.  Here's what I said, and it is accurate:

Quote

 

Moses 7:26-31, 36-41,,

In a universe in which free will is the norm, of course God can lose, and he can also weep. The losses are real.  One-third of the host of heaven have already gone to the other side.

 

15 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

And here's the key: I believe it's very likely even those who will be cast into outer darkness at the final judgment will eventually find relief and release from their sorrows because his perfect sacrificial love for them will never die, world's without end. And I believe it's highly likely that when the fullness of the vision in Doctrine and Covenants 76 is finally revealed we will learn the day of mercy will even be extended to them. Why am I so emboldened to say such a controversial thing? It's because, as the apostle Paul so beautifully testified, charity NEVER FAILETH. Or in other words, the pure love of Christ for God's children will never ever be defeated.

I know of no reason whatever to imagine that the denizens of Perdition - Outer Darkness will ever be rehabilitated.  They made their free choice and it is final.